Vaccines - Greater Good or Curtailing Freedom?

[-LEK-]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

Gonzo, What should we do if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child? Arrest them, take away the kids? Are the kids an imminent threat to society? Exactly how far are we willing to take it?

People make poor decisions everyday that affect other people in some form or shape. I'll bet everyone of you break the speed limit at some point during the day, our carelessness is putting other peoples lives at risk, should our driving privledges be taken away? See how ridiculous the 2 comparisons are.

Wut?

Yea, so we actually do have laws that prohibit speeding, driving drunk, reckless driving, not wearing a seat belt, running stop signs and traffic lights, etc. When you break those laws, you get cited, ticketed, fined, arrested.

For example, your right to be absolutely and willfully ignorant of how society is constructed and operates doesn't infringe on my rights. When you start swerving all over the road, it does.

 

[The_Godfather_rivals]

Originally posted by d2atTech:

Originally posted by GonzoCat90:

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
Ymmot, so what are you proposing, that it should be against the law not to vaccinate? What else can we outlaw that poses a threat to society, why stop here.

But we already do this, and vaccination carries much larger ramifications than some of the things we have laws against already. It's why you can't drive as fast as you want. It's why you can't have a grenade launcher. Not only do you not have the right to decide that your child be at risk of deadly disease, but you don't have the right to then let that kid loose on the rest of society.

I don't understand why this is even a "freedom" issue. We shouldn't have to make these freaks vaccinate their children, but if they won't do it without being "forced" then I guess we have to.

it is a freedom issue. no one else but me should be deciding what happens to my children. i'm all for vaccination, but the united states isn't a socialist dictatorship either. parents should be *encouraged* to vaccinate their kids, not forced.

What an incredible pile of ignorance.

Nobody should tell me not to drink and drive goddammit!! I don't give a **** if I run over your kids either. Quit telling me what to do with my body!!!

 

[Bill Derington]

CB, I agree with that,if you don't vaccinate, don't expect to go to a public school.

 

[Bill Derington]

LEK, You're acting like not getting a child vaccinated is as much a threat as driving drunk, speeding, and so on. It's not, and you know it. It's not even comparable, it's 2 different circumstances altogether.

I'm not antivaccine, I think it's ridiculous for a parent not to do it. I also realize we aren't God, and shouldn't impose our will on people, no matter how misguided we may think they are.

 

[-LEK-]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

LEK, You're acting like not getting a child vaccinated is as much a threat as driving drunk, speeding, and so on. It's not, and you know it. It's not even comparable, it's 2 different circumstances altogether.

I'm not antivaccine, I think it's ridiculous for a parent not to do it. I also realize we aren't God, and shouldn't impose our will on people, no matter how misguided we may think they are.

Last response. You're being obtuse. There are times when society must impose its will on an individual. As a citizen of a situation, you are part of the social contract. When you become a danger to society, then yes, society can restrict you. This isn't an issue of freedom. You are free to make decisions, but as another poster pointed out, there are consequences.

The issue isn't whether or not I agree with your life choice, the distinction is when that life choice infringes on the lives of others. This standard has been imposed for centuries. It's why you can't yell fire in a crowded room or speed. If someone is a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim, or homosexual, or whatever, they have every right to the pursuit of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that they see fit. When those freedoms stop others (not talking being inconvenienced) from their pursuits, society can and will restrict your freedoms.

 

[Bill Derington]

I'm not being obtuse, yelling fire in a crowded theater, or driving over the speed limit isn't anything close to a parent choosing not to vaccinate their child, and you know it.

I'm not being obtuse, it's a valid point. What do you think should happen to a parent that chooses not to, legally.

 

[JHB4UK]

Originally posted by cbpointblank1979:

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

Gonzo, What should we do if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child? Arrest them, take away the kids? Are the kids an imminent threat to society? Exactly how far are we willing to take it?
.Plenty of schools already ban peanuts because of the risk to kids with allergies. Kids who haven't been vaccinated against potentially deadly diseases can certainly be barred from attending a school where they could possibly put other kids at risk.

Absolutely. same for daycares, or at least it is the ones I have had contact with for my kids.

and if a parent is still obstinate about their children not being vaccinated they can homeschool them

 

[UKGrad93]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

LEK, You're acting like not getting a child vaccinated is as much a threat as driving drunk, speeding, and so on. It's not, and you know it. It's not even comparable, it's 2 different circumstances altogether.

I'm not antivaccine, I think it's ridiculous for a parent not to do it. I also realize we aren't God, and shouldn't impose our will on people, no matter how misguided we may think they are.

The drunk driver can kill others if he crashes into them.

The unvaccinated kid with measles is a threat to children that are still too young for the vaccine. Measles is highly contagious.

Both present a threat. Both have some degree of measurable risk. In this country we spend millions of dollars mitigating much lower risk, but somehow parents rights trump the safety for everyone else?

Looking out my window, I can see a construction sight. There is an entire code of federal regulations regarding safety on that site. Why? Shouldn't the construction crew have the right to work on high places without harnesses and fall protection. I mean it is very unlikely that they will fall and hurt anyone but themselves.

Vaccines aren't just about protecting the vaccinated person, but everyone else.

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by The_Godfather:

Originally posted by d2atTech:

Originally posted by GonzoCat90:

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
Ymmot, so what are you proposing, that it should be against the law not to vaccinate? What else can we outlaw that poses a threat to society, why stop here.

But we already do this, and vaccination carries much larger ramifications than some of the things we have laws against already. It's why you can't drive as fast as you want. It's why you can't have a grenade launcher. Not only do you not have the right to decide that your child be at risk of deadly disease, but you don't have the right to then let that kid loose on the rest of society.

I don't understand why this is even a "freedom" issue. We shouldn't have to make these freaks vaccinate their children, but if they won't do it without being "forced" then I guess we have to.

it is a freedom issue. no one else but me should be deciding what happens to my children. i'm all for vaccination, but the united states isn't a socialist dictatorship either. parents should be *encouraged* to vaccinate their kids, not forced.

What an incredible pile of ignorance.

Nobody should tell me not to drink and drive goddammit!! I don't give a **** if I run over your kids either. Quit telling me what to do with my body!!!

this is not ignorant, it's my opinion. you have the freedom to think otherwise. rand paul is a medical doctor and publicly said the same thing. you can be sure he vaccinates his kids too. just because some idiots in orange county didn't give their kids measles vaccines, doesn't mean we have to round children up and force them to get injections without their parents' consent.

 

[Bill Derington]

Do those same codes apply to you when you climb a ladder above 4 ft at home?

Again, I believe there should be consequences, no public school, understandable.

 

[Beavis606]

Too bad Edward Jenner didn't discover the vaccine for stupidpox. We could use some in this thread.

You should know who you are: the funny thing is that you actually don't.










This post was edited on 2/5 10:39 AM by Beavis606

 

[maverick1_rivals376538]

*




*idea shamelessly stolen from twitter

 

[RacerX.ksr]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
Do those same codes apply to you when you climb a ladder above 4 ft at home?

Again, I believe there should be consequences, no public school, understandable.

Bill, you're getting close. The "at home" part of your question is key.

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by ymmot31:

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
Do those same codes apply to you when you climb a ladder above 4 ft at home?

Again, I believe there should be consequences, no public school, understandable.

Bill, you're getting close. The "at home" part of your question is key.

the government is well within their right as an employer to require vaccinations. they are also well within their right to force students attending public schools to get vaccinated (get vaccinated or find another school). the public schools i attended as a child required vaccinations. people were sent home and not allowed to return until proof of up-to-date vaccines were shown. the method works.

what you don't want is uniformed, vigilante loons going around sticking people with needles (under the guise of vaccination).

 

[Big_Blue79]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
Do those same codes apply to you when you climb a ladder above 4 ft at home?

Again, I believe there should be consequences, no public school, understandable.

Note that I use "you" in a general sense, not calling you out.

If there are consequences, then your freedom has already been curtailed. You're conceding that no vaccinating means no public school, and therefore conceding your freedom to send your kid to the public school for which you pay for through taxes. So are you just arguing the scope of the loss of freedom? Is it just a consequence thing for you? Why stop at schools? Are you okay with businesses requiring vaccination records for your child? Theme parks, private schools, toy stores, grocery stores, nursing homes? What about public places like museums, parks, libraries (do people still go to these?), use of water fountains, public transportation, taxis (heavily regulated, quasi-public)?

The ladder hypo (at home) doesn't really work, because a child does not stay on your personal property. If your child never leaves your personal property (as with you on the ladder), then IDGAF if you vaccinate or not. And even in that scenario, you can't do whatever you want with your kid.

Also, while slippery slope arguments are always a logical fallacy, they are especially inapt here. No one is asking to "force" people to wash their hands or any of the other inane BS. It's only about vaccines.

 

[UKGrad93]

Bill, I have no issue with unvaccinated people that never leave their house. That would be acceptable. Yes, some schools do not allow unvaccinated kids, and now some doctors offices are not allowing unvaccinated patients.

My point with pointing out safety regultaions is to point out that it is widely accepted that some freedoms have controls and restrictions placed on them. Many of them at a much higher cost relative to the hazard and risk.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Originally posted by d2atTech:

Originally posted by ymmot31:

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
Do those same codes apply to you when you climb a ladder above 4 ft at home?

Again, I believe there should be consequences, no public school, understandable.

Bill, you're getting close. The "at home" part of your question is key.

the government is well within their right as an employer to require vaccinations. they are also well within their right to force students attending public schools to get vaccinated (get vaccinated or find another school). the public schools i attended as a child required vaccinations. people were sent home and not allowed to return until proof of up-to-date vaccines were shown. the method works.

what you don't want is uniformed, vigilante loons going around sticking people with needles (under the guise of vaccination).

Re: bolded. No kidding. Is anyone suggesting otherwise? Is this happening somewhere?

Since we're restricting schools (which people are conceding is valid), what about public transportation? Supermarkets? There are tons of scenarios that present similar (if not higher... buses/subways are crowded) dangers as schools. So can we require proof of vaccination for those? Gonna be pretty expensive to do so.

 

[Bill Derington]

All the population isn't vaccinated now. There is no giant push to stop vaccinating, there's a small group of people that don't want too, for whatever reason they like. We all know this, apparently this is a dire threat, but usually less than 100 people a year get measles in the US. I'm going out on a limb here, but you guys want to make it mandatory for everyone, right?

The is a nonissue, it's only an issue because it started at Disneyland, that's it. And someone stuck a microphone in rand Paul's piehole and he said parents should have input.

Not once on here have I said you shouldnt get vaccinated, not once.

 

[ukbowl2006]

Pretty simple solution to all this, that has been touched on. You don't want to vaccinate your kids? Fine. No public schools. If they get sick, no insurance coverage. If they are permanently damaged, you go to jail for child abuse. If they have cosmetic damage, they can sue you as an adult. If your kid gives someone else a disease, you pay their medical bills. If they are permanently damaged or die, you go to jail.

How about a little responsibility with your freedom?

 

[IdaCat]

Vaccinations are the secret method used by the gubment to inject a Mark of the Beast chip into your body. Anybody who gets one is doomed. Let he who has wisdom and understanding take heed!

 

[d2atTech]

relevant article:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2015/02/06/5499270/university-of-california-system.html#.VNWCRorF_50[/URL]

 

[TurnipDaBeet]

Boo?