I couldn't help to think about this while listening to the 49ers game yesterday. The announcers were talking about how inaccurate Troy Smith was passing in the pocket but talked about how efficient he was when on the run. Isn't Relf supposedly 70% or so when on the run? Why haven't been rolling him out more when we want to throw? It seems like everytime he gets in the pocket he just sits there andallows the pocket to collapse. I believe Relf could be a lot more 2 dimensional if we allowed him to roll out more and have the option of running or passing. I can remember one play against bama where we rolled him out, he pumped faked, made the defender miss and kept running almost for a first down. I just think we should go with the strength of our player just like the 49ers did to get Troy Smith in the best position to make plays.
Ways we can make Relf more 2 dimensional?
- Thread starter DawgWild
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I couldn't help to think about this while listening to the 49ers game yesterday. The announcers were talking about how inaccurate Troy Smith was passing in the pocket but talked about how efficient he was when on the run. Isn't Relf supposedly 70% or so when on the run? Why haven't been rolling him out more when we want to throw? It seems like everytime he gets in the pocket he just sits there andallows the pocket to collapse. I believe Relf could be a lot more 2 dimensional if we allowed him to roll out more and have the option of running or passing. I can remember one play against bama where we rolled him out, he pumped faked, made the defender miss and kept running almost for a first down. I just think we should go with the strength of our player just like the 49ers did to get Troy Smith in the best position to make plays.
catching the throws that hit them in the hands. There were 4 drops by our receivers in the Alabama game that would have sustained drives if they were caught.
I didn't think Relf played a bad game Saturday night.
But I don't understand how we can't coach him to actually have some mobility in the pocket. He stands back there so flat footed that if the pocket collapes - he is toast. Russell has more mobility and awareness in the pocket than Relf. Just right now, Relf is a lot better runner than Russell is a passer and that is what our offense is centered around. Relf also looks a lot more comfortable, as you said, if you roll him out. Give him some run/pass options. Run a pass play out of that zone read when Relf has an option as well.
I didn't think Relf played a bad game Saturday night.
But I don't understand how we can't coach him to actually have some mobility in the pocket. He stands back there so flat footed that if the pocket collapes - he is toast. Russell has more mobility and awareness in the pocket than Relf. Just right now, Relf is a lot better runner than Russell is a passer and that is what our offense is centered around. Relf also looks a lot more comfortable, as you said, if you roll him out. Give him some run/pass options. Run a pass play out of that zone read when Relf has an option as well.
MOST of Relf's passes should be on rollouts giving him the option to run plus I actually think Relf is more accurate on the rollout. You can tell he is totally uncomfortable in the pocket and he just stands there like a statue with no awareness of what's going on around him.
not having good coaching in high school and then in college for the first two years of his career. We're trying to teach him stuff that he should have learned in high school, and trying to learn in the SEC is too difficult for pretty much anyone.
That's why I'm not totally pissed off at Relf and give him a pass. It's not totally his fault. Croom should not have recruited him to play QB- he is an SEC caliber athlete for sure, but not a SEC caliber QB- and Croom didn't exactly leave Dan a great situation at the QB spot when he left. A walk-on and an extremely raw QB is an extremely bad situation in the SEC. That's why people bring in a QB in every recruiting class and not a long snapper. So- that they don't end up in a situation like we have right now. The reality about Relf is that he got such a late start, it's not very realistic to expect him to make a whole lot more progress from this point on. I think he may improve some next year, but the question is going to be will it be enough?
Now, Henig I was totally pissed off at.
That's why I'm not totally pissed off at Relf and give him a pass. It's not totally his fault. Croom should not have recruited him to play QB- he is an SEC caliber athlete for sure, but not a SEC caliber QB- and Croom didn't exactly leave Dan a great situation at the QB spot when he left. A walk-on and an extremely raw QB is an extremely bad situation in the SEC. That's why people bring in a QB in every recruiting class and not a long snapper. So- that they don't end up in a situation like we have right now. The reality about Relf is that he got such a late start, it's not very realistic to expect him to make a whole lot more progress from this point on. I think he may improve some next year, but the question is going to be will it be enough?
Now, Henig I was totally pissed off at.
Our receivers can have bricks for hands most of the time. Relf gives us our best option for winning by far. He is a good game manager and doesn't give up the ball that much. He is by far the most atheletic player we have had at quaterback since Madkin. For now Relf is the best option until we get some better receivers and Russell gets a little more comfortable and doesn't turn the ball over. I would love it if Koenning would call a few more play action pass plays to go with the option. I think it would be lot more successful than Relf throwing out of the pocket.
of the field. I agree it looks like that should be done more often but Mullen's pass offense is based on stretching the entire field. Relf has problems with reads (i.e. progressions) and anticipating open receivers. Mullen has adapted well but you can still see that he is trying to get Relf to move through his reads and hit an open man. Sometimes I think Relf simply can't pull the trigger because he is (don't laugh) thinking too much.
But the point of more roll out routes and plays is well taken. There has to be a reason the staff we have doesn't do that more.
But the point of more roll out routes and plays is well taken. There has to be a reason the staff we have doesn't do that more.
.....then we'd be able to run the option too. neither works with 8 or even 9 men in the box. you'd have to tell Relf to turn upfield and try to gain a yard or two if the roll out isn't there......and i think we all know how well Relf handles decision making.
most of the posters on here don't seem to understand that real life isn't Playstation: you're not playing against the same defensive strategy no matter what you do with your offense.
This falls in the category of things you could do with a poor passer but good decision maker at QB. That's not the QB we have. We have to find something that Relf can do that will force the other team to pull a man out of the box. So far, we haven't.
most of the posters on here don't seem to understand that real life isn't Playstation: you're not playing against the same defensive strategy no matter what you do with your offense.
This falls in the category of things you could do with a poor passer but good decision maker at QB. That's not the QB we have. We have to find something that Relf can do that will force the other team to pull a man out of the box. So far, we haven't.
Why not try the wishbone? There is eight to ten plays to it and that is all Relf can manage. He has had2 years to learn this system and he still can not run it.His 40 yds passing and 50 yds running are notgoing to win games for us. Yes, the recivers have dropped some passes but most are thrown so badly they can't caught them. Relf's int was thrown into triple coverage Russell's was because the reciver fell after the pass was thrown. Yes,our best chance is with Relf but I think Russell should be playing more.
It was sickening how often we ran that formation. Why didn't we keep going back to the Relf+Ballard+Perkins formation?
And, there are a lot more than 8-10 plays out of the wishbone set. Power, unbalanced, two wide (slot) not to mention you need two good blocking tight ends (which we don't have right now). Also, the wishbone is run from under center. Believe it or not, that can cause problems for a guy that takes 90% or better of his snaps from the shotgun.
Defenses have changed too. Both INT's were bad. Russell's throw was behind Bumpis on an out pattern and even if he had not fell down, he needed 8 foot arms to reach back and catch it. Relf doesn't throw well, but our guys have to catch the ones that come to them.
Oh, and those 40 yds passing and 50 yds running have us at 7-3 and headed to a bowl game....just saying......
Defenses have changed too. Both INT's were bad. Russell's throw was behind Bumpis on an out pattern and even if he had not fell down, he needed 8 foot arms to reach back and catch it. Relf doesn't throw well, but our guys have to catch the ones that come to them.
Oh, and those 40 yds passing and 50 yds running have us at 7-3 and headed to a bowl game....just saying......
I've wondered why we're not running some screens. In theory, we should be able to throw quick passes to the recievers, who if they can make the first guy miss can burn the D pretty bad. We tried it at least a couple times against Bama, and didn't get much if i remember right. Evidence for the "Bumphis is overrated" people. No screens that i remember though.
Play action requires the QB to read the defense. If i remember right the pass into triple coverage was on play action.
Play action requires the QB to read the defense. If i remember right the pass into triple coverage was on play action.
If you were a lb then don't tell me what the qb is facing with the wishbone. It was a sarcastic remark. Russell was possibly throwing to spot where the rec was to be. Relf could see the twodbacks with the rec. Yes, we are 7-3 and going bowling andI am happy as hell about it but I think we could be better than 7-3. It all depends on Relfand I think that the Staff has taught him all he can learn giving that he has had two years to learn it.
the QB to complete the pass. And that's the problem with us running play action with Relf. Defenses can sell out on the run because even if someone bites on the fake, the odds are still fairly slim that Relf will complete the pass.
Screens- we can do that. I'd like to see Perkins get some more touches on screen passes in fact. And really, same with Carr and Arceto. Get those guys the ball in space and let them work! And as far as Bumphis, his biggest problem is that he doesn't go upfield enough. He always tries to dance around and tries to use his speed to bust a play open- just like he did at Tupelo High School. The problem is he's facing guys that are just as fast as him and he's not in high school anymore.
Screens- we can do that. I'd like to see Perkins get some more touches on screen passes in fact. And really, same with Carr and Arceto. Get those guys the ball in space and let them work! And as far as Bumphis, his biggest problem is that he doesn't go upfield enough. He always tries to dance around and tries to use his speed to bust a play open- just like he did at Tupelo High School. The problem is he's facing guys that are just as fast as him and he's not in high school anymore.
...we are in for some real trouble. I'm not sure Russell is the man, but he absolutely HAS to beat out Relf next year.<div>
</div><div>We've sneaked up on people this year with this 1940's-esque attack and gotten wins over a couple big programs having down years. I'm happy that we are bowl eligible, but it remains to be seen if we will even one division game. We need a better offense. We need a passing game.<div>
</div><div>Maybe Russell will be a bust. But it's clear that Relf can't cut it passing. Adding two top receiver recruits won't change that. Hell, he doesn't ever look past the first read so one of them would be running a decoy route anyway.</div></div>
</div><div>We've sneaked up on people this year with this 1940's-esque attack and gotten wins over a couple big programs having down years. I'm happy that we are bowl eligible, but it remains to be seen if we will even one division game. We need a better offense. We need a passing game.<div>
</div><div>Maybe Russell will be a bust. But it's clear that Relf can't cut it passing. Adding two top receiver recruits won't change that. Hell, he doesn't ever look past the first read so one of them would be running a decoy route anyway.</div></div>
I was a linebacker and can tell you lots of stuff about what a QB faces.....(sarcasm returned). Maybe Russell was throwing to the right spot but then again maybe not. Have to ask him and Bump...
Sure, we could be better than 7-3 but we could (and have) be worse. Missed a golden opp against Auburn not to mention LSU. Hell, I want more wins as bad as you do. Reality says we need some more players, a good all-around QB, and continued good luck (it does have an effect). You are probably right about the limit of Relf's learning curve. But if you know the wishbone, you know that Relf would be limited there too with multiple reads, play action, etc just as much as he is now. Of course, with Perkins, Ballard, and Hanrahan (now back) it would be a possibility. But we are still short at least one tight end to make it go.
Mullen has really stretched this team with what he has. With more and better talent he will do better, you will be happy with more wins, and I will know for sure we have a solid coach and staff.
Patience, dear boy, patience........
Sure, we could be better than 7-3 but we could (and have) be worse. Missed a golden opp against Auburn not to mention LSU. Hell, I want more wins as bad as you do. Reality says we need some more players, a good all-around QB, and continued good luck (it does have an effect). You are probably right about the limit of Relf's learning curve. But if you know the wishbone, you know that Relf would be limited there too with multiple reads, play action, etc just as much as he is now. Of course, with Perkins, Ballard, and Hanrahan (now back) it would be a possibility. But we are still short at least one tight end to make it go.
Mullen has really stretched this team with what he has. With more and better talent he will do better, you will be happy with more wins, and I will know for sure we have a solid coach and staff.
Patience, dear boy, patience........
Relf is not normally going through a long progression of receivers anyway so as long as him primary target is on the half of the field he's rolling to we should be OK. The other primary thing though is that Relf on the rollout can take off and run, if the pass is covered, much more readily than he can from the pocket.
klerushund said:
is add more talent. Hopefully those two- and others like Joe Morrow and Devin Fosselman- can catch. Many have pointed out that dropping passes hurt us on Sat., and they are exactly right.
And having that kind of talent will also take the pressure off of Carr and Bumphis. We will have WR's that we can throw the ball to downfield, and a QB that can get them the ball.
Our offense will work a lot better with talent.
klerushund said:
but common sense is going to have to enter into it at some point. Some points to remember:
1. Ralph is going to start 13 games this season. Benching him next September for a QB that has never made a start doesn't happen very often in football on any level.- advantage Ralph
2. Mullen's offenses the last 5 seasons have all been 62% run or higher- even when he had 2 NFL WR's playing for him- advantage Ralph
3. Mullen wants a mobile QB- advantage Ralph
4. We don't have WR's good enough to throw the ball 35 times a game- advantage Ralph
5. Even most 4-star and 5-star WR's need a year to be ready to play in the SEC- advantage Ralph
6. We are slowly but surely bringing in good WR recruits in addition to having young WR's grow up. - advanatge Russell
7. Mullen has shown he is willing to throw the ball more if need be- advantage Russell
8. Even though he turns it over too much and locks onto to WR's as much as Ralph- he does have better pocket awareness and can check down a little- advantage Russell
Sitting a Sr QB with 13 starts for a QB that has yet to make 1 doesnt happen often- and thinking it's going to happen for us next year is a longshot.
I like Mullen, but I have to wonder what he's thinking with some of the playcalling. They aren't helping Relf out at all. Early in the Bama game, we throw a pass to Ballard in the flat that gains 14 yards, a bubble screen to Heavens that goes for 0 because our other WRs can't block, and then before the run is even really established, we run that long, slow developing 1 wr fly pattern that he throws for the pick. Granted, he shouldn't have thrown the ball, but we have no other receivers even running a route so you know that they are just running a play hoping that Relf will get lucky and hit a bomb.
Once again, where are the slants, quick outs, short crossing patterns with MORE THAN ONE receiver? Dan said he wants us to run for 200 and also throw for 200. Wouldn't it be easier for Relf to throw for 200 by getting Ballard, Bumphis, and Heavens yards after a catch than hoping that Arceto catches one long pass a game?
Once again, where are the slants, quick outs, short crossing patterns with MORE THAN ONE receiver? Dan said he wants us to run for 200 and also throw for 200. Wouldn't it be easier for Relf to throw for 200 by getting Ballard, Bumphis, and Heavens yards after a catch than hoping that Arceto catches one long pass a game?
The defenses will adjust and cover his receivers plus have the DE's play wide to compensate. But I agree that it would at worst be at least another tool in the toolbox. Can't recall the game, but we have rolled him a time or two. Seems like we did that against Houston.....
...totally agrees.<div>
</div><div>Is Russell as good as Eli?</div><div>
</div><div>Can't know until he plays...</div>
</div><div>Is Russell as good as Eli?</div><div>
</div><div>Can't know until he plays...</div>
...give a rat's *** if you're senior. If you can't throw (or more importantly, make good decisions under pressure) by your Junior year, quarterback is not for you.<div>
</div><div>We've scored 10 points a game versus the SEC West this year.</div><div>
</div><div>What is Tyler going to learn from Relf? How to poop his pants when his first receiver isn't open?</div><div>
</div><div>If Tyler is any good, then we need to find out. If he sucks, then we can go back to the plodding ball control style with Relf.</div>
</div><div>We've scored 10 points a game versus the SEC West this year.</div><div>
</div><div>What is Tyler going to learn from Relf? How to poop his pants when his first receiver isn't open?</div><div>
</div><div>If Tyler is any good, then we need to find out. If he sucks, then we can go back to the plodding ball control style with Relf.</div>
and your example was perfect even though you didnt mean it that way- Eli was a future 1st round pick and Super Bowl winning QB- yet he still stood on the sidelines and watched Miller play as a Senior....
I'm not saying it won't or can't happen next year- but the history of football points to Russell not being the starter next season...
I'm not saying it won't or can't happen next year- but the history of football points to Russell not being the starter next season...