Westbrook's first game / STL ....
- Thread starter AceLeroy
- Start date
against one of the worst offenses in baseball. Hopefully he can do the same thing against the Reds down the stretch. Westbrook better be good for the trade to work out, because it doesn't make sense on paperfor a team that struggles to score to trade their 3rd or 4th best hitter for a pitcher when they lead the league in ERA.
but the team had greater needs, like an infielder that would have been an offensive upgrade. They definitely neededanother stick way more than a SP, imo.
Bullpen has totally blown this lead. Whenever they play the Astros it's like they decide to play like total dog ****.
babbleBrebel said:
because they were not likely to re-sign him in the offseason. Better to get something for him rather than nothing.
I do see what you are saying- and I do agree that they could use a middle infielder that can hit- but I also think that they are counting on Freese helping out a lot when he comes back later this week or next week, and then they can move Lopez to SS. This may not be as big an issue if Shumaker wasn't having an off season. He is hitting a little bit better lately though. I think those factors played into the decision as well.
At the same time, getting a quality starting pitcher is never a bad thing. I think Westbrook will be that, and I think that he is a 2-3 starting pitcher in the 4th slot, which is good. My fear about not getting a pitcher was this- had the Cardinals not made the trade, the rotation for the playoffs would have been- Wainwright, Carp, Garcia, but then Jeff Suppan or Blake Hawksworth, or an injury prone Kyle Lohse or Brad Penny. They got away with having Anthony Reyes pitching the game of his life in the World Series in 06, but I don't like counting on guys to have the game of their life on a stage like that in the playoffs. Most playoff teams have good pitching to the point where I don't want to count on outslugging someone either.
Also, just because the trading deadline has passed, it does not mean that the Cardinals can't get a middle infielder- they just have to pass through waivers. I would prefer a second baseman because Shumaker is one of the worst fielding second basemen in all of baseball, and then you throw his bad year on top of that. If they end up with a SS, they can move Lopez, and that may work better because I think second is a more natural positon for him.
he was due arbitration and the estimate was $8 million for next year. That's why I feel like they should have done better than Jake Westbrook for him. However, I read an article this morning that La Russa and Ludwick had stopped getting along which is pretty typical. I also know they didn't want to pay him $8 million next year.
In all honesty, I have been pretty underwhelmed by Mozeliak. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me Lohse isn't the worst contract in Cardinals history, and the Brad Penny signing looks pretty ****** right now. That's 20 million of slightly above average at best, mostly average, and often on the DL pitching right there. With 20 million you could have signed Orlando Hudson, Jose Valverde, and still had some money left over.
In all honesty, I have been pretty underwhelmed by Mozeliak. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me Lohse isn't the worst contract in Cardinals history, and the Brad Penny signing looks pretty ****** right now. That's 20 million of slightly above average at best, mostly average, and often on the DL pitching right there. With 20 million you could have signed Orlando Hudson, Jose Valverde, and still had some money left over.
[b said:
So you are on SPS from your seats at a MLB game? Why don't you drink a beer and enjoy yourself in St. Louis. I betyou would post on SPS from a strip club, instead of giving the ladies attention.
As much as I like Ludwick, I'm ok with the trade. The Astros wanted pitching as well as propsects that the Cardinals didn't have, so they did what they could. Ryan would cost a lot next year when they are loaded with young outfielders. He's also starting to spend a lot of time on the DL.
First, players create their value by producing on the field. When Ryan Ludwick is due arbitration this winter, he'll be due aorund 5 or 6 million dollars. Getting Jake Westbrook in return for him was a good value. The Cardinals weren't going to pay him that much, so why not get something now, rather than nothing later? Also, because he is due that 5 or 6 million, doesn't mean he should command a better return on the trade. At 5 or 6 million, most teams will view Ryan Ludwick as overpaid. Carlos Lee and Carlos Zambrano are both due north of 15 million on their contracts for the next 2 or 3 years... does that mean they can be traded for other stars actually worth the 15 million per year? Absolutely not.
Second, Ryan Ludwick was also dealt to help with Albert Pujols' signing. By playing John Jay (which is a gamble, because he's not proven) at the league minimumn for the next 3 years, we'll save that 5 or 6 million each year and will invest that towards Pujols. I'm completely ok with this, especially with the outfield depth in the high minors (Mather, Stavinoha, etc...).
Thirdly, Jake Westbrook. He's a sinker ball pitcher and everyone with a brain knows what Dave Duncan does with sinker ball pitchers. He turns them into Cy Young winners/candidates. See Chris Carpenter. He's turned Adam Wainwright into one of the best 3 pitchers in the NL. He made Joel Piniero a lot of money. He made Woody Williams look young again. He made Kyle Lohse a lot of money. He made Jeff Suppan rich. He turned Jeff Weaver into a world series hero. Westbrook is a considerable upgrade over Hawksworth, who doesn't give us a chance to win anytime he takes the ball as a starter. Would an infield bat have been nice? Of course it would, but when David Freese comes back in about 2 weeks and Brendan Ryan doesn't see any at-bats (Felipe Lopez on short), you'll forgot about Ryan Ludwick very quickly.
Regarding the comments on Lohse and Penny. Kyle Lohse, when healthy, has been a very productive pitcher under Dave Duncan. He obviously struck while the iron was hot and got a good contract after his great 2007 year. That year might have been an anomaly, but I stil believe that if Kyle was healthy from 2008-now, we would've seen similar numbers to 2007. He hasn't pitched when healthy since 2008. While I admire his guts to throw through pain and injury, butI wished he would've addressed his injuries in a different way.
Brad Penny has a 3.23 ERA this year. I was at the game in STL when he hit the grand slam and got hurt in May. To think that Brad Penny's one year deal is a ****** contract is absurd. If before the season you could've predicted a torn lat muscle, then yes, the contract was bad. But Brad was earning every penny (no pun intended) of the $8 million he's getting. Injuries happen.... you can't control them.
Where'd you read an article on LaRussa and Ludwick not getting along? I would love to see the link. Lemme guess... Ludwick feels that his often injured, high strikeout rate *** should be playing over Jon Jay right now... and he's pissed because of it. Well guess what... stay healthy and produce and you won't have to worry about losing your job.
Second, Ryan Ludwick was also dealt to help with Albert Pujols' signing. By playing John Jay (which is a gamble, because he's not proven) at the league minimumn for the next 3 years, we'll save that 5 or 6 million each year and will invest that towards Pujols. I'm completely ok with this, especially with the outfield depth in the high minors (Mather, Stavinoha, etc...).
Thirdly, Jake Westbrook. He's a sinker ball pitcher and everyone with a brain knows what Dave Duncan does with sinker ball pitchers. He turns them into Cy Young winners/candidates. See Chris Carpenter. He's turned Adam Wainwright into one of the best 3 pitchers in the NL. He made Joel Piniero a lot of money. He made Woody Williams look young again. He made Kyle Lohse a lot of money. He made Jeff Suppan rich. He turned Jeff Weaver into a world series hero. Westbrook is a considerable upgrade over Hawksworth, who doesn't give us a chance to win anytime he takes the ball as a starter. Would an infield bat have been nice? Of course it would, but when David Freese comes back in about 2 weeks and Brendan Ryan doesn't see any at-bats (Felipe Lopez on short), you'll forgot about Ryan Ludwick very quickly.
Regarding the comments on Lohse and Penny. Kyle Lohse, when healthy, has been a very productive pitcher under Dave Duncan. He obviously struck while the iron was hot and got a good contract after his great 2007 year. That year might have been an anomaly, but I stil believe that if Kyle was healthy from 2008-now, we would've seen similar numbers to 2007. He hasn't pitched when healthy since 2008. While I admire his guts to throw through pain and injury, butI wished he would've addressed his injuries in a different way.
Brad Penny has a 3.23 ERA this year. I was at the game in STL when he hit the grand slam and got hurt in May. To think that Brad Penny's one year deal is a ****** contract is absurd. If before the season you could've predicted a torn lat muscle, then yes, the contract was bad. But Brad was earning every penny (no pun intended) of the $8 million he's getting. Injuries happen.... you can't control them.
Where'd you read an article on LaRussa and Ludwick not getting along? I would love to see the link. Lemme guess... Ludwick feels that his often injured, high strikeout rate *** should be playing over Jon Jay right now... and he's pissed because of it. Well guess what... stay healthy and produce and you won't have to worry about losing your job.
but there is nothing logically wrong with my post. Ludwick is an all-star, silver slugger winner. Do you really think a guy who candrive in runs like he does isviewed as overpaid at 5 or 6 million? If so you needto reasses the market for guys who can hit 25 hr and drive in 90+ runs. He has been healthy 2 and a half of the past 3 seasons and his OPS is above average when he plays. He does have an injury history, but so does Jake Westbrook who is coming off Tommy John last year. Besides we lead the MLB in ERA. Westbrook did not address as big of a need as a bat unless you know Lohse and Penny aren't gonna give you anything. And that brings me to Lohse and Penny..you really have to stretch it to excuse Lohse and ignore Penny's injury history over his entire career. Also, David Freese had to leave his rehab game early last night. Counting on a guy with multiple leg injuries who is a rookie isnt wise. Neither is thinking Jon Jay will continue to have a .450 batting average on balls in play.
On Lohse, there is really no way to defend that it was a short sighted overreaction to the market. It is going to cripple our payroll the next two years when we owe him 12 million each year. 12 million for Kyle Lohse. If you ask me, there is something seriously wrong with your thought process of defending the Lohse signing. 12 million for slightly above league average when he is on top of his game. Terrible deal. And again, you say Duncan turns all these scrubs around, then why not let him do it instead of paying Kyle 17ing Lohse 12 million a year.
And on Penny, no one should be surprised he is hurt. He gets hurt every freaking year. You use arguments against Ludwick, but then dont apply them to Penny. Tell me why something is not wrong with that though proces.
On Lohse, there is really no way to defend that it was a short sighted overreaction to the market. It is going to cripple our payroll the next two years when we owe him 12 million each year. 12 million for Kyle Lohse. If you ask me, there is something seriously wrong with your thought process of defending the Lohse signing. 12 million for slightly above league average when he is on top of his game. Terrible deal. And again, you say Duncan turns all these scrubs around, then why not let him do it instead of paying Kyle 17ing Lohse 12 million a year.
And on Penny, no one should be surprised he is hurt. He gets hurt every freaking year. You use arguments against Ludwick, but then dont apply them to Penny. Tell me why something is not wrong with that though proces.
last night. I will say that changes my opinion of him a little bit- fair or not- as far as coming back. I'm not mad at the front office about it since there was no way of knowing that he was going to continue have leg problems after the trading deadline and it looked like he was going to come back.
I do think that this recent injury probably makes getting another bat that much more of a priority. But, I'm now starting to wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to get a third baseman that can hit as opposed to a middle infielder. Either or would be fine.
I also saw where Mozeliak was booed during Whitey Herzog's number retirement ceremony.
I do think that this recent injury probably makes getting another bat that much more of a priority. But, I'm now starting to wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to get a third baseman that can hit as opposed to a middle infielder. Either or would be fine.
I also saw where Mozeliak was booed during Whitey Herzog's number retirement ceremony.
What I was getting at, is that Ludwick, who has shown he can hit pretty good when healthy, is going to get much more expensive this winter. So expensive, in fact, that the Cardinals weren't going to re-sign him. Why not get something in return for that now? Does losing Ryan Ludwick take us from a playoff contender to a non-playoff team? No, it doesn't. Adding Jake Westbrook does't necessarily make us a playoff lock either, but it does give us a better chance at it. He's much more polished than Hawksworth. And if we do get to the playoffs, then a lineup (minus ludwick) with a Carp/Waino/Garcia/Westbrook is better than a lineup with Ludwick and Carp/Waino/Garcia/Suppan or Hawksworth.
Regarding Lohse/Penny... if you could predict injuries, then yes, those contracts are terrible... but since you can't, why harp on 'em?
And to me, the overwhelming factor in all ofthis is signingPujols, whichshould be priority number 2, behind winning now, for theCardinals front office. Anything you can do toposition yourself to sign the guy this winter should be done.
Regarding Lohse/Penny... if you could predict injuries, then yes, those contracts are terrible... but since you can't, why harp on 'em?
And to me, the overwhelming factor in all ofthis is signingPujols, whichshould be priority number 2, behind winning now, for theCardinals front office. Anything you can do toposition yourself to sign the guy this winter should be done.
to the validity of the decision to get rid of Ludwick, but Westbrook (as he showed last night and against the Yankees last week) is a very talented pitcher with some dirty stuff.
Also sitting on a leather couch in front of 6 flat screens showing other more interesting MLB games than the **** I was watching.
You just try way too hard fish.
You just try way too hard fish.
You are debating a Homer - the Bulldog Backer of Cardinal baseball. <div>babbleBrebel said:
</div><div>Logic doesn't enter his/her equation.</div>
Underwhelmed is putting it nicely. The guy ought to be working for a Triple A team - like many of the position players he has assembled. <div>babbleBrebel said:
</div><div>Somewhere Walt Jocketty is laughing his *** off.</div>