What a mess W and his neocons created in the Middle East....

RichardPeterJohnson

New member
Dec 7, 2010
12,636
108
0
with the shooting down by NATO member Turkey of a Russian jet and the apparent death of one pilot and the apparent capture of the other, things are getting even more complicated. Turkey, being a NATO member, has done little to help us. They would not allow us to use their territory for the invasion of Iraq back in 2003. They tacitly support ISIS-they are enemies of the Kurds who are our allies in fighting ISIS. Turkish soccer fans jeered France during a moment of silence last week in the aftermath of the Paris attacks. Some ally.

Meanwhile, we have Russia-who with the bombing of their civilian airliner, was primed to be an ally in fighting ISIS. Of course, Russia has an ulterior motive in helping Assad's regime in Syria (a regime the Turks despise). Undoubtedly, the Russians did violate Turkish airspace. the Russians make a habit of testing boundaries as they have recently exhibited in buzzing our aircraft carriers with fighter jets, sending subs into our ally's ports, and sending strategic bombers just off our west coast.

The Russians will do something against Turkey. And if they attack Turkey, an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. So there's the possibility of an escalation. But as much as I think Putin is a jagoff, I think I trust him more than the Turks. It is not in his interests to go to war with Turkey and thereby be at war with NATO and the US. But he can't let this slide-even though his jets were probably in Turkish airspace.

I'm not sure who said it, but some general I think once said "never get involved in a land war in Asia". Tiome an again-from the French in Vietnam, us in Vietnam, Russia in afghanistan, us in Afghanistan and Iraq, that seems like good advice. What a mess W and his neocons created. Democracy spreading across the ME? Laughable. Who knows where this will end. But it won't be democracy spreading in that hellhole of a region.
 

WVPATX

Member
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
By almost every measure, the ME is now worse under Obama. He essentially created ISIS and no amount of revision is going to change that. JV team indeed. Iraq, as Obama noted, was stable and self reliant when he pulled everyone out. What an enormous mistake as even his own intelligence community said as well as his Sec Def. Then he bombs Libya into oblivion and the terrorists take over. Then he cedes Syria to Assad with his red line and we have absolute carnage. Now millions of refugees flee to Europe and America. Leading from behind is not a strategy. Even leftists of today acknowledge how poorly he has performed (e.g. Feinstein, Panetta, and others).
 

WVUCOOPER

Member
Dec 10, 2002
55,555
40
31
with the shooting down by NATO member Turkey of a Russian jet and the apparent death of one pilot and the apparent capture of the other, things are getting even more complicated. Turkey, being a NATO member, has done little to help us. They would not allow us to use their territory for the invasion of Iraq back in 2003. They tacitly support ISIS-they are enemies of the Kurds who are our allies in fighting ISIS. Turkish soccer fans jeered France during a moment of silence last week in the aftermath of the Paris attacks. Some ally.

Meanwhile, we have Russia-who with the bombing of their civilian airliner, was primed to be an ally in fighting ISIS. Of course, Russia has an ulterior motive in helping Assad's regime in Syria (a regime the Turks despise). Undoubtedly, the Russians did violate Turkish airspace. the Russians make a habit of testing boundaries as they have recently exhibited in buzzing our aircraft carriers with fighter jets, sending subs into our ally's ports, and sending strategic bombers just off our west coast.

The Russians will do something against Turkey. And if they attack Turkey, an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. So there's the possibility of an escalation. But as much as I think Putin is a jagoff, I think I trust him more than the Turks. It is not in his interests to go to war with Turkey and thereby be at war with NATO and the US. But he can't let this slide-even though his jets were probably in Turkish airspace.

I'm not sure who said it, but some general I think once said "never get involved in a land war in Asia". Tiome an again-from the French in Vietnam, us in Vietnam, Russia in afghanistan, us in Afghanistan and Iraq, that seems like good advice. What a mess W and his neocons created. Democracy spreading across the ME? Laughable. Who knows where this will end. But it won't be democracy spreading in that hellhole of a region.
Bush invented Common Core!
 
  • Like
Reactions: RichardPeterJohnson

mule_eer

Member
May 6, 2002
20,438
58
48
By almost every measure, the ME is now worse under Obama. He essentially created ISIS and no amount of revision is going to change that. JV team indeed. Iraq, as Obama noted, was stable and self reliant when he pulled everyone out. What an enormous mistake as even his own intelligence community said as well as his Sec Def. Then he bombs Libya into oblivion and the terrorists take over. Then he cedes Syria to Assad with his red line and we have absolute carnage. Now millions of refugees flee to Europe and America. Leading from behind is not a strategy. Even leftists of today acknowledge how poorly he has performed (e.g. Feinstein, Panetta, and others).
By definition, if Iraq was self reliant when we pulled our troops out, then this would not be a problem now.
 

RichardPeterJohnson

New member
Dec 7, 2010
12,636
108
0
By definition, if Iraq was self reliant when we pulled our troops out, then this would not be a problem now.
It is predictable that wingnuts will blame Obama for the mess that W created. It's been one mess after another that W created that Obama has to address. Then the wingnuts ***** that Obama isn't fixing these messes fast enough. While I'm sure Obama has made many mistakes in ME foreign policy, he certainly didn't create this mess. With Hussein still in power, there is a counterbalance to Iran and Syria in that region. Colin Powell warned W-if you break it, you own it. We all knew that the minute the US pulled out-whether it was one year or 100, there would be a power struggle. It's how these sectarian country's formed in the aftermath of WWI operate. I think Biden had it right in his 3 state approach to Iraq-sunni, shia, and kurds. I'm sure they would still be fighting though.
 

bamaEER

New member
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
0
And it all started with a speech about the 'Axis of Evil'
 

RichardPeterJohnson

New member
Dec 7, 2010
12,636
108
0
And it all started with a speech about the 'Axis of Evil'
Have we ever had more of a puppet as President? Seriously. we all know W wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. He surrounded himself with a bunch of ideologues who pulled his strings. Powell was the only one in his inner circle who tried to slap him back to reality but that didn't take. Now, to hear Cheney publicly criticize Obama for the situation in the ME is laughable. Only a uneducated wingnut-you know the type worried that Common Core is teach Arabic numerals to our students-would buy something so ridiculous.
 

WVPATX

Member
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
By definition, if Iraq was self reliant when we pulled our troops out, then this would not be a problem now.

Google Obama's quote upon his decision to exit Iraq. It is what it is. He made an enormous strategic blunder.
 

rog1187

Well-known member
May 29, 2001
69,526
4,625
113
with the shooting down by NATO member Turkey of a Russian jet and the apparent death of one pilot and the apparent capture of the other, things are getting even more complicated. Turkey, being a NATO member, has done little to help us. They would not allow us to use their territory for the invasion of Iraq back in 2003. They tacitly support ISIS-they are enemies of the Kurds who are our allies in fighting ISIS. Turkish soccer fans jeered France during a moment of silence last week in the aftermath of the Paris attacks. Some ally.

Meanwhile, we have Russia-who with the bombing of their civilian airliner, was primed to be an ally in fighting ISIS. Of course, Russia has an ulterior motive in helping Assad's regime in Syria (a regime the Turks despise). Undoubtedly, the Russians did violate Turkish airspace. the Russians make a habit of testing boundaries as they have recently exhibited in buzzing our aircraft carriers with fighter jets, sending subs into our ally's ports, and sending strategic bombers just off our west coast.

The Russians will do something against Turkey. And if they attack Turkey, an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. So there's the possibility of an escalation. But as much as I think Putin is a jagoff, I think I trust him more than the Turks. It is not in his interests to go to war with Turkey and thereby be at war with NATO and the US. But he can't let this slide-even though his jets were probably in Turkish airspace.

I'm not sure who said it, but some general I think once said "never get involved in a land war in Asia". Tiome an again-from the French in Vietnam, us in Vietnam, Russia in afghanistan, us in Afghanistan and Iraq, that seems like good advice. What a mess W and his neocons created. Democracy spreading across the ME? Laughable. Who knows where this will end. But it won't be democracy spreading in that hellhole of a region.
Arab Spring and erasable red lines
 

WVPATX

Member
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
And it all started with a speech about the 'Axis of Evil'

Yeah, that was the problem. Libs always try and blame others for their failures. Obama has been President for 7 years and we are much, much worse off today than when he first came into office. Obama is inept and naive and it is costing hundreds of thousands of people their lives.
 

WVPATX

Member
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
It is predictable that wingnuts will blame Obama for the mess that W created. It's been one mess after another that W created that Obama has to address. Then the wingnuts ***** that Obama isn't fixing these messes fast enough. While I'm sure Obama has made many mistakes in ME foreign policy, he certainly didn't create this mess. With Hussein still in power, there is a counterbalance to Iran and Syria in that region. Colin Powell warned W-if you break it, you own it. We all knew that the minute the US pulled out-whether it was one year or 100, there would be a power struggle. It's how these sectarian country's formed in the aftermath of WWI operate. I think Biden had it right in his 3 state approach to Iraq-sunni, shia, and kurds. I'm sure they would still be fighting though.

And when Obama unilaterally decided against the advice of Intelligence and DOD to pull out of Iraq, a, as he called it, "stable Iraq" became what it is today. Enormous, enormous blunder. All on Obama.
 

dolemitebmf

New member
May 29, 2001
29,976
319
0
It is predictable that wingnuts will blame Obama for the mess that W created. It's been one mess after another that W created that Obama has to address. Then the wingnuts ***** that Obama isn't fixing these messes fast enough. While I'm sure Obama has made many mistakes in ME foreign policy, he certainly didn't create this mess. With Hussein still in power, there is a counterbalance to Iran and Syria in that region. Colin Powell warned W-if you break it, you own it. We all knew that the minute the US pulled out-whether it was one year or 100, there would be a power struggle. It's how these sectarian country's formed in the aftermath of WWI operate. I think Biden had it right in his 3 state approach to Iraq-sunni, shia, and kurds. I'm sure they would still be fighting though.
With Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, and Mubarak all in power, the entire general region (and the world) would be much better off...
 

TarHeelEer

New member
Dec 15, 2002
89,280
37
0
with the shooting down by NATO member Turkey of a Russian jet and the apparent death of one pilot and the apparent capture of the other, things are getting even more complicated. Turkey, being a NATO member, has done little to help us. They would not allow us to use their territory for the invasion of Iraq back in 2003. They tacitly support ISIS-they are enemies of the Kurds who are our allies in fighting ISIS. Turkish soccer fans jeered France during a moment of silence last week in the aftermath of the Paris attacks. Some ally.

Meanwhile, we have Russia-who with the bombing of their civilian airliner, was primed to be an ally in fighting ISIS. Of course, Russia has an ulterior motive in helping Assad's regime in Syria (a regime the Turks despise). Undoubtedly, the Russians did violate Turkish airspace. the Russians make a habit of testing boundaries as they have recently exhibited in buzzing our aircraft carriers with fighter jets, sending subs into our ally's ports, and sending strategic bombers just off our west coast.

The Russians will do something against Turkey. And if they attack Turkey, an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. So there's the possibility of an escalation. But as much as I think Putin is a jagoff, I think I trust him more than the Turks. It is not in his interests to go to war with Turkey and thereby be at war with NATO and the US. But he can't let this slide-even though his jets were probably in Turkish airspace.

I'm not sure who said it, but some general I think once said "never get involved in a land war in Asia". Tiome an again-from the French in Vietnam, us in Vietnam, Russia in afghanistan, us in Afghanistan and Iraq, that seems like good advice. What a mess W and his neocons created. Democracy spreading across the ME? Laughable. Who knows where this will end. But it won't be democracy spreading in that hellhole of a region.

OBAMA's Arab Spring speech

 

Airport

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2001
80,882
977
113
With Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, and Mubarak all in power, the entire general region (and the world) would be much better off...
Germany would be better off if Hitler had remained in power too.
 

Airport

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2001
80,882
977
113
It is predictable that wingnuts will blame Obama for the mess that W created. It's been one mess after another that W created that Obama has to address. Then the wingnuts ***** that Obama isn't fixing these messes fast enough. While I'm sure Obama has made many mistakes in ME foreign policy, he certainly didn't create this mess. With Hussein still in power, there is a counterbalance to Iran and Syria in that region. Colin Powell warned W-if you break it, you own it. We all knew that the minute the US pulled out-whether it was one year or 100, there would be a power struggle. It's how these sectarian country's formed in the aftermath of WWI operate. I think Biden had it right in his 3 state approach to Iraq-sunni, shia, and kurds. I'm sure they would still be fighting though.
I have said all along, I didn't think we should have gone to war in Iraq. Doing it created many problems. Leaving it to mom jeans boy insured that it would get worse.
 

WVPATX

Member
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
Obama's been in office for 7 years. He's made huge decisions. Yet Libs still blame Bush, lmao.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Airport

Airport

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2001
80,882
977
113
Obama's been in office for 7 years. He's made huge decisions. Yet Libs still blame Bush, lmao.
Obama can take credit for the improvement in southside of Chicago and Baltimore! [laughing]
 

dave

Well-known member
May 29, 2001
167,927
721
113
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Airport

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2001
80,882
977
113
just trying to show how stupid some of the claims about the ruthless dictators were.