What has happened to offense in SEC basketball?

[Hanmudog]

I realize our offense blows but has anyone else watched muchSEC basketball and noticed how poor the offense is overall? Every game you watch seems like a sloppy, grind it out affair. Vandy runs a good offense. Florida is decent but relies heavy on three pointers. It is hard to gauge UK's offense when they have 5 AA's that could probably score 100 points without even having a coach. After those three teams thoughit is just ugly basketball that consists of three point shots and offensive rebound putbacks.

Is it good defense, bad offense, losing players to the NBA, poor coaching, or all of the above?

 

[Hanmudog]

I realize our offense blows but has anyone else watched muchSEC basketball and noticed how poor the offense is overall? Every game you watch seems like a sloppy, grind it out affair. Vandy runs a good offense. Florida is decent but relies heavy on three pointers. It is hard to gauge UK's offense when they have 5 AA's that could probably score 100 points without even having a coach. After those three teams thoughit is just ugly basketball that consists of three point shots and offensive rebound putbacks.

Is it good defense, bad offense, losing players to the NBA, poor coaching, or all of the above?

 

[MadDawg.sixpack]

Everyone. Without exception.

 

[tenureplan]

Couple that with a lack of instruction in High School of basketball fundamentals throughout the Southeast.

 

[seshomoru]

for that reason. It's so freaking boring.

 

[Hanmudog]

I used to love watching even a Tennessee/Auburn or Georgia/LSU type game on TV ona Wednesday night that State wasn't playing. Now that crap is awful. Hell I probably would not watch MSU if I wasn't such a die hard.

 

[dawgstudent]

and it was horrible. It was like watching a high school girls basketball game with how far they were missing shots.

 

[Tds & Beer]

The offenses in this league are garbage usually. They all are more organized and involve more movement than ours, but not by much. I think it has a lot to do with why this league has underperformed. Call me whatever you wish, but I honestly believe it has a lot to do with the overall basketball IQ and regular IQ in this leage. </p>

 

[EAVdog]

The refs allow way too much contact in my opinion. The game is much more brawn than brains. Othe conferences play a much prettier brand of basketball.

 

[tenureplan]

The offenses in this league are garbage usually. They all are more organized and involve more movement than ours, but not by much. I think it has a lot to do with why this league has underperformed. Call me whatever you wish, but I honestly believe it has a lot to do with the overall basketball IQ and regular IQ in this leage. </p>

 

[RebelBruiser]

It's all about having athletes that can score in the paint or having athletes that can get into the paint, draw the defense and dish to an open man. The basic basketball concepts that teams use to help players get open shots are lost on not only most SEC teams but most college teams. It's just worse in the SEC than most leagues for some reason. It's hard to watch, even the good teams.

 

[AshleySchaffer]

We are talking about the SEC, NOT the IVY LEAGUE

If you watch any NBA basketball at all or watch teams like UCONN, North Carolina, Kansas, etc... You will notice they win with HIGHLY athletic players making plays with the ball and off of the dribble, dunking and making threes off dribble penetration.

The days of the Dean Smith 4 corner offense, and the Princeton offense are over in D1 basketball especially in the power conferences.

 

[Hanmudog]

We are talking about the SEC, NOT the IVY LEAGUE

If you watch any NBA basketball at all or watch teams like UCONN, North Carolina, Kansas, etc... You will notice they win with HIGHLY athletic players making plays with the ball and off of the dribble, dunking and making threes off dribble penetration.

The days of the Dean Smith 4 corner offense, and the Princeton offense are over in D1 basketball especially in the power conferences.

Being athletic andrunning a good offense do not have to be mutually exclusive. Setting screensand hitting back door cutters can be done by an athletic 6'10 guy just like it can a slow 6'0 guy that can't jump.

 

[RebelBruiser]

If you watch the NBA much, there are a lot of screens, a lot of work off the ball to get players open. It's not just the dribble drive.

People often like to say the NBA is all about individuals playing one on one with each other.

That happens, but usually it only happens after one or two attempts at running an actual play to try to get someone an open look, with rotations and second options off that play. When that fails, then the best player on the team often gets the ball to try to make something happen, but that's not normal. If you have a Kobe, Durant, or Lebron, you may do that as your first option sometimes, but most teams actually run offenses.

What you see at the college level is pure crap. You can be athletic and run sets to get players open. In fact, the teams that do so are the ones that typically advance deep in the tournament every year.

I agree that for most schools, the days of real offense are over at the college level, and that's largely because most coaches know they only have players for a few years, and those players have no base to build on for teaching offense, so they just rely on athletes to make plays from simple sets.

 

[8dog]

the way they spread the floor to allow for their guys to make plays off the dribble.

And Roy Williams is still running the same secondary break he has been for 20 yrs. Like someone said, its not mutually exclusive.

And Vandy runs a modified Princeton offense. As does Georgetown.

What Cal does at KY is orchestrated. Its not just rolling the ball out there. Its an offensive gameplan but takes advantage of athletes.

When you have athletes and have zero structure, you get what we have, standing around and just ball screening. We have 4 NBA caliber talents and cannot crack 70.

 

[Tds &amp; Beer]

We are talking about the SEC, NOT the IVY LEAGUE

If you watch any NBA basketball at all or watch teams like UCONN, North Carolina, Kansas, etc... You will notice they win with HIGHLY athletic players making plays with the ball and off of the dribble, dunking and making threes off dribble penetration.

The days of the Dean Smith 4 corner offense, and the Princeton offense are over in D1 basketball especially in the power conferences.

No you are seeing what we say andjumping to the conclusion that we want to run princeton's offense. I would be happy a 17in hell if we ran the same offense as uconn, north carolina, or kansas, but we don't even do that much.

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

If you watch the NBA much, there are a lot of screens, a lot of work off the ball to get players open. It's not just the dribble drive.

People often like to say the NBA is all about individuals playing one on one with each other.

That happens, but usually it only happens after one or two attempts at running an actual play to try to get someone an open look, with rotations and second options off that play. When that fails, then the best player on the team often gets the ball to try to make something happen, but that's not normal. If you have a Kobe, Durant, or Lebron, you may do that as your first option sometimes, but most teams actually run offenses.

What you see at the college level is pure crap. You can be athletic and run sets to get players open. In fact, the teams that do so are the ones that typically advance deep in the tournament every year.

I agree that for most schools, the days of real offense are over at the college level, and that's largely because most coaches know they only have players for a few years, and those players have no base to build on for teaching offense, so they just rely on athletes to make plays from simple sets.

The NBA also has players who can make shots. The AAU culture has produced a generation of players who's best attribute is to use their athleticsm to attack thebasket. Hell, Calipari started calling his offense the "dribble drive" and now a legion of fans and recruits think he inventedsome magicscheme to attack the basket when - in fact - besidesrunning some two man sets using a basic pick and roll, heclears the lane and lets his lottery picks assault the rim.At the end of the day, Cal's dribble drive is nothing more than AAU ball on steroids.

As for MSU, no questionBury has talent. But most of those guy have an AAU basketball IQ.As good as Dee Bost is, he still has no idea how to play under control.College basketball is becoming harder and harder to watch.

Remember that "epic" battle between VCU and Florida Statelast March. It was only epic in a sense that neither team could get a big bucket down the stretch. VCU led that game 61-53 at the under8 time out and won 72-71 in OT. So inalmost 13 minutes of basketball down the stretch, VCU managed to score 11 points. And somepeople would labelShaka Smart an X and O genius.

Remember WVU's Final Four run a couple of years back? They barely managed to shoot 40% in the tournament, yet Peachbowl believes their motion offense is "fun to watch".

Today's coaches have no choicebut to sell out to the AAU style of play and the result- as yousaid - is "pure crap".

 

[Hanmudog]

Beyond the bad offenses, it seems that SEC teams really lacks good scorers. The SEC has had some great ones over the years with guys like Tony Delk, Chris Jackson, Gerald Glass, Darryl Wilson, Allen Houston, Literrial Green,Kennedy Winston, Chuck Person, Todd Day, etc. There just are not alot of players in the SEC that you fear on offense.

 

[RonnyAtmosphere]

1) The emergence of shot blockers.


College guards can no longer drive to the basket without having the ball slammed back down their throat. DeVille Smith alone gets at least 3 drives to the basket a game blocked.


Tall athletes with the wingspan of a giant is one reason offense is suffering.


2) Horrible refs.


One half of college refs no longer call fouls, except when the are in the mood. The other half of college refs are so contemptuous of the game, they'll whistle a hard stare as a foul.


Remember when the Baylor player literally tackled Dee Bost & the Baylor player wasn't called for a foul? Suddenly Dee Bost realizes he is fair game for Baylor fists, hand-checks & elbows & he can't play a confident brand of offense.


In college basketball these days, no matter who is playing, the refs are beyond horrible. They insert their flip-flopping definition of a foul into the game to the extend it disrupts any offensive momentum.

 

[DAWG61]

seems simple. The NBA draft has had a tremendous affect on the quality of play in college. At some point in the 90's the entire NBA started changing how it drafts players. They draft more for potential for greatness now. Every year the top 60-80 college players are leaving when how many are seniors that have graduated? If you compare the drafts their is no way in hell Kyrie Irving would be the top pick in any draft in the 80's or early 90's. Hell Dee 17ing Bost thought he was going to get drafted after his sophomore year. No 17ing way would a player of his skill level would try that in the 80's yet you see it constantly now. So you can thank the NBA for robbing you not only of quality NBA basketball but also robbing you of quality college basketball.

 

[RebelBruiser]

Great example with Calipari. He basically admits he doesn't have an offense. He just relies on his athletes getting in the lane and scoring or drawing the defense and dishing. You see it all over basketball because the players don't have a clue how to play basketball.

I think that's why you see a lot of players struggle to transition to the NBA. Most aren't used to playing defense or running a real offense. The elite talents can still make it work, but the average player coming out usually has to take a few years to really learn basketball.

There was a CL article a few years interviewing David Sanders, and he talked about how players these days don't have an offseason to work on fundamentals or all that much time between games to work on teaching the game, so basically they just out athlete other players.

Where it really shows up is with the bigs. Most of the good bigs have no back to the basket game, because that actually takes practice to learn a post game. Look at Sidney as an example. He would much rather face up.

Demarcus Cousins is one of the few recent players I remember who was both elite and had a back to the basket game. It is bad enough that I really don't even enjoy watching us even when we win. Even in wins its similar to watching a football game where you turned it over 5 times, had 15 penalties, but still won. It's just ugly even when the result is positive.

 

[oem]

Great example with Calipari. He basically admits he doesn't have an offense. He just relies on his athletes getting in the lane and scoring or drawing the defense and dishing. You see it all over basketball because the players don't have a clue how to play basketball.

I think that's why you see a lot of players struggle to transition to the NBA. Most aren't used to playing defense or running a real offense. The elite talents can still make it work, but the average player coming out usually has to take a few years to really learn basketball.

There was a CL article a few years interviewing David Sanders, and he talked about how players these days don't have an offseason to work on fundamentals or all that much time between games to work on teaching the game, so basically they just out athlete other players.

Where it really shows up is with the bigs. Most of the good bigs have no back to the basket game, because that actually takes practice to learn a post game. Look at Sidney as an example. He would much rather face up.

Demarcus Cousins is one of the few recent players I remember who was both elite and had a back to the basket game. It is bad enough that I really don't even enjoy watching us even when we win. Even in wins its similar to watching a football game where you turned it over 5 times, had 15 penalties, but still won. It's just ugly even when the result is positive.

Calipari is the ultimate snake oil salesman. He markets his "dribble drive" as something he created when - if the truth be told - his model started with DeJaun Wagner and has led to a parade of one year stopovers on their way to the NBA. I've heard him say - and this will make some of our former private school ballers cringe - that they don't game plan a whole lot for their opponent. He really does subscribe to the Jims and Joes over X's and O's theory. And while he hasn't won one yet, he will.<div>
</div><div>It really all goes back to AAU ball. Players used to learn the game at the high school level. But any influence a HS coach might have had, has been snatched up by the AAU team manager - who ultimately has 2 responsibilities:</div><div>

• Line up enough sugar daddies to line his pockets and those of the street agents who have managed to make eighth grade ballers a commodity
• Make sure somebody brings the uniforms and the ball bag

<div>Sanders point is valid - especially at the HS level. They spend the summer playing tournaments - sometimes 4 or 5 games a day. Its like Bob Knight said about the AAU culture - these kids play so many games, they get to the point where winning and losing means nothing.</div><div>
</div><div>It isn't until a kid gets to the NBA that he can learn how to really play the game. Those all-stars that you see scrunched up on benches across the league - like Patrick Ewing - aren't just some clipboard holder like Peachbowl was at Charleston High. They spend a couple of hours a day teaching their trade.</div><div>
</div><div>The NBA- for me - has become fun to watch again. They have their warts like any pro league - too many teams with too many idiots - but on any given night in any given game you will see somebody do something that makes you go WOW.</div>
</div>

 

[Hanmudog]

You make a good point. I have gotten to where I would rather watch an NBA game over most college games. The gap in the skill level in the players has gotten to be so large. There used to be college teams that could probably compete with low level NBA teams. Teams like the Todd Day Arkansas teams or the great UNLV teams. You just don't see that anymore.