The odds of multiple men on base for Hunter and Wes are far greater with 3 guys hitting in front of them rather than 2. You always want your best hitter with power in the 4 hole. My lineup would score the most runs. Id still rather have Frazier CT and Detz against lefties more than anyone else on the team having Renfroe and Rea at 4-5 to drive them in. Cohen understands that cleanup is more valuable than the 3 hole which is why we've seen mostly Slauter and Detz in the 3 hole. Even a Norris and Fullerton sighting in the 3 hole. I don't know what Cohen did in the offseason or who influenced his change but we are doing more and more of the things I have advocated for, especially as the season has progressed.
What we learned this weekend St. John's, St. Joseph- what's the difference?
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The odds of multiple men on base for Hunter and Wes are far greater with 3 guys hitting in front of them rather than 2. You always want your best hitter with power in the 4 hole. My lineup would score the most runs. Id still rather have Frazier CT and Detz against lefties more than anyone else on the team having Renfroe and Rea at 4-5 to drive them in. Cohen understands that cleanup is more valuable than the 3 hole which is why we've seen mostly Slauter and Detz in the 3 hole. Even a Norris and Fullerton sighting in the 3 hole. I don't know what Cohen did in the offseason or who influenced his change but we are doing more and more of the things I have advocated for, especially as the season has progressed.
I really don't care what side of the plate a guy hits from...
You put your best overall hitter in 3rd spot. Then next best avg/power combo hitter in 4th. Normally a top contact guy in #2 slot and your faster hitters in 1,9 slots. Usually the #1 should have the best avg and OBP. Then you put a good contact guy on 5th slot, preferably with power but not necessary.
Thinking is 1-4 guys are most likely to get on and in scoring position on their own. #5 guy puts ball into play (sac fly/ ground ball to right side) thus increasing chance of scoring. Left hand hitters best fit this description.
This would be my top 5 and 9 hitters.
1. Frazier
2. One of starting OF
3. Renfroe
4. Rea
5. Detz
9. Fastest in lineup of remaining 4
You put your best overall hitter in 3rd spot. Then next best avg/power combo hitter in 4th. Normally a top contact guy in #2 slot and your faster hitters in 1,9 slots. Usually the #1 should have the best avg and OBP. Then you put a good contact guy on 5th slot, preferably with power but not necessary.
Thinking is 1-4 guys are most likely to get on and in scoring position on their own. #5 guy puts ball into play (sac fly/ ground ball to right side) thus increasing chance of scoring. Left hand hitters best fit this description.
This would be my top 5 and 9 hitters.
1. Frazier
2. One of starting OF
3. Renfroe
4. Rea
5. Detz
9. Fastest in lineup of remaining 4
My best hitter will always lead off, my best hitter with power will always bat cleanup. My top 2 remaining on-base guys will bat 2-3.
On another note since the Gambling game we have had 32 instances of man on first no out, and only * 2 times. That is coaching progression that me and you like to see
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my point is that early in the game it is not that big of a deal to have 3 lefties in a row. but late in the game it is advantageous and creates more favorable match up to not have 3 lefties back to back to back. i do agree that frazier and bradford should be 1 and 2.
If you have enough data, you can determine your best hitter and slugger against righties and lefities and adjust that way. Why not put the two best OBP guys first and second with the best base stealer first and then put my best hitter for average third and best OPS fourth if its not the same guy?
As of right now, I would go with this...
Frazier SS
Bradford CF
Renfroe RF
Rea 1B
Detz 2B
Slauter C
Porter DH
Norris 3B
Henderson LF
I would be ok with moving Porter up ahead of Slauter, but for righty/lefty purposes, I think this would work better. I personally like Renfroe better in the 3 hole because he has good speed, and because it puts one more high OBP guy ahead of big Rea. Just my opinion though.
Frazier SS
Bradford CF
Renfroe RF
Rea 1B
Detz 2B
Slauter C
Porter DH
Norris 3B
Henderson LF
I would be ok with moving Porter up ahead of Slauter, but for righty/lefty purposes, I think this would work better. I personally like Renfroe better in the 3 hole because he has good speed, and because it puts one more high OBP guy ahead of big Rea. Just my opinion though.
Best all around hitter bats 3 spot most often...
Average, slugging, OBP... Renfroe is the best all around hitter in lineup. He has the best all around stats for a #3 guy. And batting him 3rd guarantees that the pitcher will have to pitch to him in the 1st inning. Hopefully with Frazier on base the pitcher cannot pitch around him and he gets more pitches to hit. Have to maximize the # of AB's your best hitter gets with max chance of having runners on in front of him. #3 is that spot.
Average, slugging, OBP... Renfroe is the best all around hitter in lineup. He has the best all around stats for a #3 guy. And batting him 3rd guarantees that the pitcher will have to pitch to him in the 1st inning. Hopefully with Frazier on base the pitcher cannot pitch around him and he gets more pitches to hit. Have to maximize the # of AB's your best hitter gets with max chance of having runners on in front of him. #3 is that spot.
I agree with most of this^...I've always thought Renfroe is an ideal 3 hole guy, especially when Big Wes is healthy and can hit behind him. Now add Detz, another RBI machine, behind Rea, and you've got a stout core to go with a speedy group of good OBP guys at the top. And really, Slauter and Norris can add some great pop to the bottom half of the order in the lineup I listed above. Then if Henderson can reach base it would be great to have some speed on ahead of Frazier and Bradford.
you do realize the top of the order is only guaranteed to lead things off once a game right??
i dont want arguably my best hitter to be sittin on deck at the end of the game instead of havin a chance to do damage. i also want my best hitter up in the first inning. top two are on base guys and then you need run production out of 3,4, and 5.
this makes sense to any knowledgable baseball person. you may not agree but the reasoning is pretty clear.
I agree. Plus, Hunter gives you speed AND RBI capabilities in the 3 hole. Having that extra speed and base stealing ability would be great to have on base ahead of Rea and Detz in my opinion. As we saw this weekend, a single for Renfroe, and 1 stolen base, and suddenly you have a man in scoring position for your two best RBI guys in Rea and Detz. Detz doesn't give you that speed in the 3 hole that I would like to see.
Why have him hit in the 1st if nobody is on? If someone gets on the 4 hole automatically hits in the 1st so he'd hit anyway. The 3 hole is not all important in fact it's the 4th most important spot in the lineup behind 1 2 and 4.
Not if a slower runner like Detz is in the 3 hole and grounds into a DP like he did a couple times this weekend.
Like Patdog said you don't plan around possible double plays. All the wizards of smart say best hitter w power goes in the 4 hole behind on base guys.
Nowhere did I say you plan around a double play...I was just simply proving you wrong that getting a guy on base doesn't "always" mean your 4th hitter will hit that inning. That is 100% fact by the way.
you want the oppossling pitcher to face your best hitter in the first...not only that but the higher he is in the order the more ABs he gets throughout the entire game. the game is often won or lost in the late innings and i want my best guy to have that chance to change the game, not sitting on deck or in the dugout. and it is a fact that the #3 guy gets more ABs that 4 and 5.
making out a line up doesnt just depend on the first...there is a strategy to it and the late innings may be/usually are more important than the first.
Is that why Pujols hits 3rd? Hamilton hits 3rd David Wright hits 3rd Matt Kemp hits 3rd Ryan Braun hits 3rd Miguel Cabrera hits 3rd. Man you are just so wrong in this situation. It is conventional wisdom that your best overall hitter hits 3rd. 4th is generally a guy that hits for power but not necessarily for average.
ETA: Obviously not every team does this, but you are way off base by saying hitting your best hitter 3rd is wrong.
ETA: Obviously not every team does this, but you are way off base by saying hitting your best hitter 3rd is wrong.
It is a fact the 3 hole gets more at bats but the 4 hole has more guys on base when he gets there. (mlb network) so u clearly want
3 detz
4 hunter
5 rea
3 detz
4 hunter
5 rea
Yep it's maximizing the run potential. Baseball is evolving the old memes are thankfully dying out. Jump in or get left behind. Cohen appears to be jumpin in. Let's see where Hunter hits.
I want to see Flair at 3B. I know 2B is our hole for now, but really, you don't want someone making errors at 3rd and letting the ball get down the line. A little too simplistic, but that's how I feel on it. I think an error at third can do worse damage (on avg.) than one at second. I think we're better set up at 3B, but I'm not "comfortable" on it.
Like I've said before.... I don't think Henderson is a great runner. But I think it's a bit skewed because I honestly think he's being told to go on stupid decisions. Maybe just to test the waters, maybe to see just how fast he is. I don't know. I could be wrong. The catcher did drop the ball.... but it was in front of him, and he got it back fairly quickly- quick enough to catch some guy running to third.
Whomever made the call, that's a pretty daring steal no matter who was running.
No matter, we have to clean it up there.
Like I've said before.... I don't think Henderson is a great runner. But I think it's a bit skewed because I honestly think he's being told to go on stupid decisions. Maybe just to test the waters, maybe to see just how fast he is. I don't know. I could be wrong. The catcher did drop the ball.... but it was in front of him, and he got it back fairly quickly- quick enough to catch some guy running to third.
Whomever made the call, that's a pretty daring steal no matter who was running.
No matter, we have to clean it up there.
Except that the entire premise is wrong. You should want 3 on base guys before Renfroe every AB because over the course of games and season it will produce more runs.
entire premise is wrong? my entire premise is based on the strategy and history of the game of baseball. your entire premise is based on going against the usual no matter if its right or wrong just so people will think you're "edgy" or that you "think outside the box". you try so hard to come up with ways to prove you are head and shoulders above everyone when it comes to the game but you achieve just the opposite to those that have actual knowledge of the game.
i am the first to say that there are many different ways to be successful at the game but you refuse to even consider anything but your own opinions as acceptable. people that really know the game know there is always something to learn and nothing is finite...therefore i think you know very little because you think you know it all. but i guess that is your little schtick during baseball season and your gonna ride it out til the end.
Barry Bonds greatest offensive weapon EVA hit cleanup.
What some MLB teams do doesn't change the fact of the matter as studies have shown. My way is the future.
Thats like the "Well Augue Garrido does it so your wrong" argument. Texas A&M coach seems to be mimicking Augie this year as they are way out in front on the sacs in the SEC. Guess what? While playing the second most games in our conference, they have the 12TH most runs scored. And that's after 31 stolen bases too! Don't give away outs. Bat your best hitter with power 4th.
Find me your sources showing where your best hitting power guy is supposed to hit 3rd... Its a MEME supported by nothing but Nostalgia. Sure as hell doesn't produce the most runs.
Really?
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2007/3/7/133315/9104
And from a wikipedia article (I know it's wikipedia, but it still shows Bonds as a 3 hole hitter):
Typically the greatest hitters for a combination of power and OBP on their teams bat third, as is shown by the use of such hitters as Babe Ruth, Mel Ott, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds,Mickey Mantle, Carl Yastrzemski, Albert Pujols, Joey Votto, Miguel Cabrera, Josh Hamilton, Evan Longoria, José Bautista, and Hank Aaron in this position in the lineup. Even without the combination of extreme power (Yogi Berra, Al Kaline, George Brett) or high batting average (Ernie Banks, Harmon Killebrew, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, Reggie Jackson) this batting position contains an inordinate number of hitters who eventually become members of the Baseball Hall of Fame.
And from Howard Owens (a stats guy's blog):
It’s worth noting that it was quite revolutionary when Tony LaRussa started batting Mark McGwire #3 in the line up. Here was the strongest power hitter of his generation, and through he hit for good average, he was never a threat to winning a batting crown. But he maintained such a high HR to at-bat ratio, it made sense to get him as many at bats in a game as possible. So he hit third. The Giants do that with Barry Bonds now, and the Cubs follow suit with Sammy Sosa. The day of the high-average, low power #3 hitter, such as the prototypical Rod Carew, seem to be over. Will moving the Bonds and McGwires to the #2 hole be next?
Different Strokes for different folks...but you're wrong on Bonds batting 4th. He did for a while, but he also batted 3rd quite a bit.
May want to quit acting like a know it all, Mr. Stats
ETA: I can find WAY more, these were just the first 3 on google. Basically, you are so full of wrong on this one, it's terrible.
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Bonds hit third more than he hit fourth, including his peak stat years of 98-01.
[h=4]Batting Order Positions[/h]
| I | Split | G | GS | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | SB | CS | BB | SO | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS | TB | GDP | HBP | SH | SF | IBB | ROE | BAbip | tOPS+ |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Batting 1st | 462 | 440 | 2068 | 1798 | 323 | 463 | 101 | 22 | 75 | 193 | 99 | 35 | 251 | 317 | .258 | .349 | .463 | .812 | 833 | 17 | 7 | 2 | 10 | 38 | 24 | .274 | 55 | |
| Batting 2nd | 29 | 25 | 110 | 99 | 16 | 22 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 12 | 9 | 0 | 9 | 17 | .222 | .291 | .374 | .665 | 37 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | .247 | 27 | |
| Batting 3rd | 1017 | 1010 | 4478 | 3458 | 858 | 1057 | 214 | 29 | 329 | 788 | 174 | 42 | 944 | 536 | .306 | .457 | .670 | 1.127 | 2316 | 68 | 46 | 1 | 29 | 192 | 38 | .278 | 113 | |
| Batting 4th | 852 | 844 | 3599 | 2581 | 656 | 819 | 160 | 12 | 242 | 615 | 89 | 18 | 954 | 376 | .317 | .503 | .670 | 1.173 | 1729 | 47 | 39 | 0 | 25 | 359 | 21 | .290 | 124 | |
| Batting 5th | 533 | 521 | 2222 | 1809 | 360 | 550 | 115 | 12 | 108 | 371 | 142 | 46 | 373 | 269 | .304 | .421 | .560 | .981 | 1013 | 31 | 13 | 1 | 26 | 90 | 12 | .303 | 87 | |
| Batting 6th | 13 | 6 | 33 | 25 | 5 | 8 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 8 | 4 | .320 | .485 | .600 | 1.085 | 15 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .350 | 108 | |
| Batting 7th | 17 | 2 | 28 | 22 | 3 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 3 | .364 | .500 | .682 | 1.182 | 15 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | .353 | 125 | |
| Batting 8th | 14 | 0 | 15 | 11 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 3 | .000 | .267 | .000 | .267 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | .000 | -40 | |
| Batting 9th | 49 | 0 | 53 | 44 | 5 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 9 | 14 | .182 | .321 | .409 | .730 | 18 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 1 | .185 | 40 |
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Look if you want to score less runs fine but my lineup will put the most numbers on the board. Like I said we'll see what Cohen does but when competing for hosting positions and National Seeds every single game matters meaning every single run matters. 100% efficiency is needed. Free market baseball lets maximize our lineup. Renfroe cleanup. C'mon Cohen you've made tons of progress in my direction lets stay on that track.
I don't care what the old school did. I'm just as right on this as the **** issue. Take a trip into the future and gain a competitive advantage on the luddites. I will go ahead and predict a sweep in College Station against their **** happy Augieite, predicated on Cohens continued enlightenment of course.
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