What we learned this weekend St. John's, St. Joseph- what's the difference?

[Will James]

Like I said, Miguel Cabrera, Albert Pujols, Matt Kemp, Josh Hamilton, Andrew Mccutchen, David Wright, Ryan Braun would all disagree. I don't have any clue what Texas A&M has to do with what I am saying.

And like I said, that changes nothing and is pointless when talking about maximizing run potential. It would be the same if we were discussing the ideas of Hayek vs Keynes and you listed FDR LBJ Obama. It's the strategy that's proven to produce greater runs I talk about. If they want to go old school cool but Miggy has Prince, either Pujols or Hamilton will bat 4th, Mike Stanton, Paul Konerko, Adrien Beltre, Tulowitzki, etc.

Kemp Wright Braun Votto would all be cleanup for me. Your 3 hole hitter disproportionately comes to the plate with nobody on and 2 outs, the worst chance of scoring. Why have your best guy there?

 

[CadaverDawg]

And like I said, that changes nothing and is pointless when talking about maximizing run potential. It would be the same if we were discussing the ideas of Hayek vs Keynes and you listed FDR LBJ Obama. It's the strategy that's proven to produce greater runs I talk about. If they want to go old school cool but Miggy has Prince, either Pujols or Hamilton will bat 4th, Mike Stanton, Paul Konerko, Adrien Beltre, Tulowitzki, etc.

Kemp Wright Braun Votto would all be cleanup for me. Your 3 hole hitter disproportionately comes to the plate with nobody on and 2 outs, the worst chance of scoring. Why have your best guy there?

Then why were you using Bonds to help your argument? Was that not from the past? Was that also not wrong?

 

[Will James]

Then why were you using Bonds to help your argument? Was that not from the past? Was that also not wrong?

I wasn't using Bonds to end the argument as you name listers tried to do. I was just pointing out that wasn't always the case. You people are the ones trying to end the argument on name listing not me.

I will also allow a decree stating that against left handed pitchers Cohen shall be allowed to swap Rea and Detz in the 3 and 5 holes if Rea gets on more in those situations, but Renfroe remains 4. Also 6-9 he can do as he wishes on righty vs lefty situations. Carry on.

 

[skb124]

My goodness man. Not only are you claiming to be smarter than Cohen, you are now claiming to be smarter than MLB managers at the same time. You really are priceless. The fact is the best player on those teams is hitting 3rd. So in your scenario, which is totally a hypothetical, you are saying that the first 2 batters get out and you have the third guy up. So what if he gets out? Then you have your best hitter leading off the next inning with no RBI chance. How is that optimizing your scoring chances? You act as if every time the #4 hitter comes up it will have been with the leadoff guy leading off the inning.

And I have already said that I don't think your philosophy is necessarily wrong. I can understand why you would think that way, and obviously there are coaches that agree with that. But your calling this method wrong is where you are wrong. It is not wrong, it is just different from what you think. You are foolish for believing that your philosophies are the only option.

 

[majors42]

What do you mean, YOU PEOPLE?

I wasn't using Bonds to end the argument as you name listers tried to do. I was just pointing out that wasn't always the case. You people are the ones trying to end the argument on name listing not me.

I will also allow a decree stating that against left handed pitchers Cohen shall be allowed to swap Rea and Detz in the 3 and 5 holes if Rea gets on more in those situations, but Renfroe remains 4. Also 6-9 he can do as he wishes on righty vs lefty situations. Carry on.

 

[Will James]

I would like to take this moment to provide a couple of numbers. These are concerning the AL last season, you know, the one with the DH like Mississippi State uses.

Position order with the highest batting average - Cleanup .275
Position order with the highest slugging average- Cleanup .463

 

[CadaverDawg]

I would like to take this moment to provide a couple of numbers. These are concerning the AL last season, you know, the one with the DH like Mississippi State uses.

Position order with the highest batting average - Cleanup .275
Position order with the highest slugging average- Cleanup .463

Bbbbut I thought the past didn't have any impact on your futuristic approach to new age baseball?

 

[Will James]

Also cleanup leading off an inning gives you a good chance of scoring as he will most likely be your second bet on-base man. He also provides power in every at bad so he could produce a run alone. Where you don't want him is wasted with nobody on and 2 outs.

 

[CadaverDawg]

Also cleanup leading off an inning gives you a good chance of scoring as he will most likely be your second bet on-base man. He also provides power in every at bad so he could produce a run alone. Where you don't want him is wasted with nobody on and 2 outs.

But what about Barry Bonds? I mean, he was the Greatest EVAAA and he batted 3rd??

 

[Will James]

Bbbbut I thought the past didn't have any impact on your futuristic approach to new age baseball?

I bring up last season where the game is evolving. You bring up Harmon Killebrew. Again you purposefully disallow for rational thought to be antagonistic. Open your mind to total baseball, 100% maximum efficiency which is my philosophy.

 

[Will James]

But what about Barry Bonds? I mean, he was the Greatest EVAAA and he batted 3rd??

When you can't argue on points I know you've been finished off. Go back to yelling at the left fielder about his sister Cad

 

[CadaverDawg]

I bring up last season where the game is evolving. You bring up Harmon Killebrew. Again you purposefully disallow for rational thought to be antagonistic. Open your mind to total baseball, 100% maximum efficiency which is my philosophy.

Was Barry Bonds in the Harmon Killibrew days? Bc YOU brought him up.

 

[CadaverDawg]

When you can't argue on points I know you've been finished off. Go back to yelling at the left fielder about his sister Cad

Haha you just know you've been made a fool in this thread. By far your worst arguments EVAAAA. It's ok man, you win some you lose some. Just wish you could admit it when you're wrong.

 

[Will James]

Haha you just know you've been made a fool in this thread. By far your worst arguments EVAAAA. It's ok man, you win some you lose some. Just wish you could admit it when you're wrong.

Whatever gets you to sleep at night Cad. Lookin forward to Hunter in the 4 hole.

 

[Todd4State]

The odds of multiple men on base for Hunter and Wes are far greater with 3 guys hitting in front of them rather than 2. You always want your best hitter with power in the 4 hole. My lineup would score the most runs. Id still rather have Frazier CT and Detz against lefties more than anyone else on the team having Renfroe and Rea at 4-5 to drive them in. Cohen understands that cleanup is more valuable than the 3 hole which is why we've seen mostly Slauter and Detz in the 3 hole. Even a Norris and Fullerton sighting in the 3 hole. I don't know what Cohen did in the offseason or who influenced his change but we are doing more and more of the things I have advocated for, especially as the season has progressed.

That's why you have a number 9 hitter that functions as a second leadoff hitter and then you still maximize the chances of your number three hitter getting at bats. Who would you rather have more at bats over the course of a game? Detz or Renfroe? You are only looking at the top four-five hitters in a lineup, and not the whole lineup. That's why your lineup doesn't maximize run potential. Why is Cohen hitting Detz third? Oh- I don't know- maybe because Rea and Renfroe are hurt?

 

[Todd4State]

I bring up last season where the game is evolving. You bring up Harmon Killebrew. Again you purposefully disallow for rational thought to be antagonistic. Open your mind to total baseball, 100% maximum efficiency which is my philosophy.

If you want to see where the game is evolving- look at Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, and Billy Hamilton. You're going to see more power and SPEED guys.

I have to laugh at "total baseball" being five guys and four leftovers. You get maximum efficiency when everyone in a lineup contributes and maximizing the times that they bat. It's common sense actually.

 

[Will James]

9 hole was lowest in the AL in OBP. The first is the only inning you have control over the lineup. Why put a good bat 9th to 'maybe' be a lead off hitter when odds are he will rarely do that. A much higher percentage of runs are scored in the first than any other inning so you want to MAXIMIZE that and your lineup. You 9 hole lead off is another old meme that is being done away with.

 

[Will James]

Renfroes started 10 games, only 2 games has he been in the 3 hole. The last occurrence was against Purdue 8 games ago. Which was also before the Detz explosion and subsuquent move into the 3 hole, which of course I called beforehand which of course you have already given me credit for.

 

[skb124]

You realize Miguel Cabrera won the triple crown last year hitting in the 3 hole? The fact that you can't even concede that both ways are understandable is just more evidence of how awful you are.

 

[Will James]

You realize Miguel Cabrera won the triple crown last year hitting in the 3 hole? The fact that you can't even concede that both ways are understandable is just more evidence of how awful you are.

Wow yeah one player (backed up by Prince Fielder) definitely equates to all of baseball over many years....

"Great minds discuss ideas (my philosophy), small minds discuss people (your Cabrera example)."
- Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[shoeless joe]

Find me your sources showing where your best hitting power guy is supposed to hit 3rd... Its a MEME supported by nothing but Nostalgia. Sure as hell doesn't produce the most runs.

i dont need someone else's opinion or source to let me know what is good baseball strategy. my source is 25+ years of experience within the game.

i am not saying your strategy sucks...i'm saying that myself and a majority of knowledgeable baseball folks do things a certain way for certain reasons, and there are a hell of a lot of wins that back that up.

you have shown an arrogant lack of information on the subject of baseball so i am done trying to explain this.

 

[RougeDawg]

Best hitter (Renfroe) bats 3rd in lineup... Bottom line.

If you bat him 4th he's not guaranteed an AB in 1st inning. And to maximize his output you have to assure him the maximum amount of AB's per game with the greatest chance that someone will be on base ahead of them when they do bat. Hence the #3 spot.

First two runners could get on, no outs. One get thrown out stealing/picked off and a double play and you've gone from 2 on, 0 out to your "best" hitter leading off the 2nd with NO runners on base. See where I'm going with this?

And you put a fast, high OBP guy batting 9 slot, which essentially makes #3 spot a cleanup hitter remainder of the game, yet you maximized his AB's.

 

[Will James]

If you bat him 4th he's not guaranteed an AB in 1st inning.

So? If he's up with nobody on and 2 outs its a waste for our best hitter with power. If the top 3 go down then he gets to lead off the next inning and has the best chance to get on, get multiple bases, and create a big inning in the 2nd.

And to maximize his output you have to assure him the maximum amount of AB's per game with the greatest chance that someone will be on base ahead of them when they do bat. Hence the #3 spot.

No.. That would be the number 4 spot. The 1st is the only inning you control so you have a better chance of him hitting with somebody on with 3 batters in front of him rather than 2. That will maximize his output over the course of a season.

First two runners could get on, no outs. One get thrown out stealing/picked off and a double play and you've gone from 2 on, 0 out to your "best" hitter leading off the 2nd with NO runners on base. See where I'm going with this

Again so? We're dealing at the margins here and at those margins mine scores the most runs. Two of the first three hitters get on, 1 out, and Renfroe hits a 3 run home run. See where I'm going with this. Throughout the game you now have chances for the 1, 2, and 3 hole hitters to lead off an inning in front of Renfroe, giving him more chances to hit with runners on.

And you put a fast, high OBP guy batting 9 slot, which essentially makes #3 spot a cleanup hitter remainder of the game, yet you maximized his AB's.

Okay go ahead if he's the highest OBP guy out of the 6-9 hitters. You're essentially telling me that cleanup is important with that move, so go ahead and get the 3 BEST guys ahead of him to begin with, as I have advocated. You don't want to waste your first time through the order.

 

[CadaverDawg]

small minds discuss people (your Cabrera example)."
- Eleanor Roosevelt

So you're small minded about baseball because you brought up Barry Bonds as part of your argument. I agree.

 

[skb124]

Are you serious? I've named about 8 players. Prince fielder has nothing to do with this. We are talking about where your best hitter should go. According to you Cabrera should be in the 4 whole. And like I said, him being in the 3 is not wrong

 

[Will James]

Are you serious? I've named about 8 players. Prince fielder has nothing to do with this. We are talking about where your best hitter should go. According to you Cabrera should be in the 4 whole. And like I said, him being in the 3 is not wrong

Yeah, I would swap Prince and Cabrera. My way scores more runs, you haven't even tried to argue that on points.

 

[skb124]

So you are claiming to be a better baseball mind than Jim Leyland?

 

[Will James]

So you are claiming to be a better baseball mind than Jim Leyland?

Why don't you argue my points with your own?

 

[skb124]

Why don't you answer my question? You say that Jim Leyland is wrong. So are you saying you are a better baseball mind than he is?

 

[Will James]

Why don't you answer my question? You say that Jim Leyland is wrong. So are you saying you are a better baseball mind than he is?

In this one instance I think he is wrong.

I think Obama and Bush are/were wrong sometimes, do I think that I would make a better President? What a childish argument

 

[skb124]

Jim Leyland took his "wrong lineup" to the World Series. In his wrong lineup his best hitter hit #3 and had more power more RBI and better avg than his #4. How can you possibly say that he is wrong? This is the dumbest argument you've ever had. You make your lineup based on who is in it. There is no clear set way that you are "supposed" to form a lineup. As much as you know numbers of the game, you actually know very little about the real intrinsic aspects of the game.

 

[Will James]

Jim Leyland took his "wrong lineup" to the World Series. In his wrong lineup his best hitter hit #3 and had more power more RBI and better avg than his #4. How can you possibly say that he is wrong? This is the dumbest argument you've ever had. You make your lineup based on who is in it. There is no clear set way that you are "supposed" to form a lineup. As much as you know numbers of the game, you actually know very little about the real intrinsic aspects of the game.

So you think swapping them would have resulted in them not making it to the WS? I think it would have given Miggy a handful of extra RBI's but again what we are talking about are the margins. Doing it you way wouldn't necessarily not work, but it would result in 99% efficiency not 100% for example.

ETA the Prince had a higher OBP

 

[KurtRambis4]

What are your

thoughts on ****ing, man on 1st no outs....


/

 

[CadaverDawg]

thoughts on ****ing, man on 1st no outs....


/

This +1 brought to you by.....(dont leave hangin Kurt)

 

[Will James]

thoughts on ****ing, man on 1st no outs....


/

You're done

As Goat has already told you today. Again critical thinking is not a strong suit of yours

 

[KurtRambis4]

Haha!

Dude, take a step back and chill out. I was pulling your chain. Holy hell, if you get this worked up over some BS message board, I couldn't imagine how you react in real life. Seriously, learn how to take a joke. Every comment isn't an affront to your "manhood".

How exactly was I wrong about my personal opinon of wanting to play an elite squad, again?

 

[skb124]

I'm arguing that his method is not wrong. I'm not arguing the my method is right and your method is wrong. I'm saying both are applicable and it depends on your players. I just can't fathom how you can say that a lineup scenario is wrong when at least 1/3 of the majors use that approach. You're not as smart as you claim to be. This is my last post on the issue. You are illogical and cannot be reasoned with even when you are in the vast minority.

 

[Will James]

I'm arguing that his method is not wrong. I'm not arguing the my method is right and your method is wrong. I'm saying both are applicable and it depends on your players. I just can't fathom how you can say that a lineup scenario is wrong when at least 1/3 of the majors use that approach. You're not as smart as you claim to be. This is my last post on the issue. You are illogical and cannot be reasoned with even when you are in the vast minority.

His method is 99% efficient. They would score more runs swapping the two. Just like we will score more with Renfroe batting 4th.

 

[CadaverDawg]

His method is 99% efficient. They would score more runs swapping the two. Just like we will score more with Renfroe batting 4th.

No proof on either scenario...which means you are WRONG to say that him batting in the 3 hole couldn't be better. Period.

That's skb's point, and mine too. It's your theory and how YOU would do it. That doesn't make it any more right or wrong than our theory of batting him in the 3 hole.

ETA: Either prove to us that Renfroe would DEFINITELY score us more runs as a team batting in the 3 hole(which is not possible to prove), or STFU bc you're wrong to say batting him 3rd will lead to less efficiency. Wrong.

 

[Will James]

No proof on either scenario...which means you are WRONG to say that him batting in the 3 hole couldn't be beter. Period.

That's skb's point, and mine too. It's your theory and how YOU would do it. That doesn't make it any more right or wrong than our theory of batting him in the 3 hole.

Actually it is proven. Which is why most AL teams have their highest slugger and average guys in the 4 hole.