When does UNC's time come?
- Thread starter dynastydreamuk
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Buddy there wouldn't be a "lack of institutional control" if those fake classes weren't against the rules
First, it is "were" not "where."
Second, those classes were not taught nor were they supervised by a legit professor or representative of the university. They were "overseen" by a secretary. The academic advisers, like Beth Bridger, claim that they thought Crowder was a TA!!![roll]Stupidity abounds at UNC!!!
Crazyy8s
The majority of people in the classes were athletes, and the atheletes were steered into these classes knowning it would help keep their grades in eligible range.
You are such a troll.
OR you are one of the members of the million dollar PR firm UNC hired to help minimize everything they did wrong.
The majority of people in the classes were athletes, and the atheletes were steered into these classes knowning it would help keep their grades in eligible range.
You are such a troll.
OR you are one of the members of the million dollar PR firm UNC hired to help minimize everything they did wrong.
I'm having too much fun with this. Seriously enough, guys. I agree with you. They've cheated. They should be punished. I just think it's a lot more complex to prove than something as simple as money, or prostitutes, or cars being an impermissible benefit. The NCAA thinks they have enough, thus they issued the NOA. I'm just saying its a muddy situation, and the strength of any UNC defense would be in that mud. I don't recall that the "paper classes" were not overseen by a legitimate professor. I'll have to look into that one, but thanks preacherfan; that certainly adds another layer to the sketchy academic practices. As for the grammar... sorry for the slip up. I guess I should have gotten my education somewhere other than UNC. jk.
I think you are a little full of yourself. The last thing I am looking for on here is some pup to enlighten me.
You may be right about it being a majority. I knew I had read somewhere about half being an approximation of the number, but as I look at things now, I may have been extrapolating.
FI121 in the NOA reads "September 24, 2007 – Email from Crowder to Reynolds. This includes, but is not limited to, Reynolds mentioning that half of a Swahili class enrollment consisted of football student-athletes. (Item2_CrowderToReynolds_092407_NorthCarolina_00231) ".
That class in particular may have had a below average number of athletes (or maybe when athletes outside of football were counted as well it was a majority). All that to say, I really am trying to work with real facts and consider possible explanations UNC may use as a defense. The fact that UNC hasn't self-imposed anything leads me to suspect they will try to fight this.
I know you see Manlishi and Pack Pride guaranteeing UNC gets hammered but my simple question is if they were going to hammer UNC then why haven't they done so already? They've had the ammo to bury UNC for years now but have not stepped up to the plate, so why?
Save this post mark it down because here is EXACTLY what will happen:
UNC's women's basketball program will get buried, their football program will get hit hard, and Men's basketball will get probation, scholarship reductions, TV and post season bans, maybe. Perhaps somehow a Syracuse like snippet of wins as long as it does not impact trophies.
But there is no way on earth they lose a National Championship, not 2005, not 2009, and LOL if you ever dreamed 1993 would be on the chopping block.
Then UNC's mouthpieces will be on ESPN, Fox, and everywhere else decrying the harshness of the NCAA penalties and UNC themselves will play the victims to the hilt. Just look at Pitino and Louisville somehow trying to pretend they are the victims right now if you want to see how nauseating that looks.
But behind the scenes UNC will be ecstatic over it. Because this whole thing has always been about two things: Protecting Deano's legacy and under no circumstances losing any banners. Matter of fact I think UNC will successfully over the ensuing years wage a court battle (that will inevitably be fixed) to get any vacated wins back.
UNC's entire endgame is just that. Save Deano. Keep the NCs. Maybe even the wins. They do not give a damn what happens to the University or any other sporting program. This scam was designed to benefit basketball. Men's Basketball. And every waking move since they got caught cheating has been designed to protect exactly that and they are more than ready and willing to throw anything else under the bus to save it.
If you view this entire scandal in that light then their actions actually makes sense.
Save this post mark it down because here is EXACTLY what will happen:
UNC's women's basketball program will get buried, their football program will get hit hard, and Men's basketball will get probation, scholarship reductions, TV and post season bans, maybe. Perhaps somehow a Syracuse like snippet of wins as long as it does not impact trophies.
But there is no way on earth they lose a National Championship, not 2005, not 2009, and LOL if you ever dreamed 1993 would be on the chopping block.
Then UNC's mouthpieces will be on ESPN, Fox, and everywhere else decrying the harshness of the NCAA penalties and UNC themselves will play the victims to the hilt. Just look at Pitino and Louisville somehow trying to pretend they are the victims right now if you want to see how nauseating that looks.
But behind the scenes UNC will be ecstatic over it. Because this whole thing has always been about two things: Protecting Deano's legacy and under no circumstances losing any banners. Matter of fact I think UNC will successfully over the ensuing years wage a court battle (that will inevitably be fixed) to get any vacated wins back.
UNC's entire endgame is just that. Save Deano. Keep the NCs. Maybe even the wins. They do not give a damn what happens to the University or any other sporting program. This scam was designed to benefit basketball. Men's Basketball. And every waking move since they got caught cheating has been designed to protect exactly that and they are more than ready and willing to throw anything else under the bus to save it.
If you view this entire scandal in that light then their actions actually makes sense.
So the NCAA has jurisdiction over a questionable or easy grade a kid made in high school and make them ineligible but you are saying they have no jurisdiction in college in college courses and eligibility? Gimme me a break.
So a teacher in high school can give a no show essay class and give extra credit to falsely qualify....the kid
And college could face reprimand but a university does the same for thousands of student athletes and nothing????
They actually altered
And gave false statements which can be used and to boot they could be forced to repay millions in federal Grants these kids didn't really earn
I love the fact that my widdle buddy UNCfaninky is on this thread liking crazy's posts. So, widdle buddy, please post your thoughts about how your favorite school cheated, cheated and cheated and you are on here agreeing with someone who is arguing that UNC should get off on a technicality.
Do you teach those same ethics to your children? "But teacher, she didn't really cheat. She was just looking at the other student's paper as she was writing her own answers. We teach her that is okay in our home so what's the problem?"
Do you teach those same ethics to your children? "But teacher, she didn't really cheat. She was just looking at the other student's paper as she was writing her own answers. We teach her that is okay in our home so what's the problem?"
I need my other buddy, Rev Gary Heels, to come back now and explain all this to me. If you see him, tell him I am still waiting for his explanation of how this scandal happened when he said it was impossible to happen. I've been waiting for months and months!
http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/NCAA-NOA.pdf
From the NCAA's Notice Of Allegations (Page 48) sent to UNC. Published and redacted by UNC.
Further, the institution exhibited a lack of institutional control in regard to the special arrangements constituting impermissible benefits athletics academic counselors and staff within African and Afro-American Studies (AFRI/AFAM) department provided to student-athletes.
Specifically, individuals in the academic administration on campus, particularly in the college of arts and sciences, did not sufficiently monitor the AFRI/AFAM and ASPSA departments or provide appropriate supervision for these academic units and their staffs. The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for 18 years. This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use these courses through special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk student-athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball and women's basketball. Although the general student body also had access to the anomalous AFRI/AFAM courses, student-athletes received preferential access to these anomalous courses, enrolled in these anomalous courses at a disproportionate rate to that of the general student body and received other impermissible benefits not available to the general student body in connection with these courses.
From the NCAA's Notice Of Allegations (Page 48) sent to UNC. Published and redacted by UNC.
Further, the institution exhibited a lack of institutional control in regard to the special arrangements constituting impermissible benefits athletics academic counselors and staff within African and Afro-American Studies (AFRI/AFAM) department provided to student-athletes.
Specifically, individuals in the academic administration on campus, particularly in the college of arts and sciences, did not sufficiently monitor the AFRI/AFAM and ASPSA departments or provide appropriate supervision for these academic units and their staffs. The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for 18 years. This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use these courses through special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk student-athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball and women's basketball. Although the general student body also had access to the anomalous AFRI/AFAM courses, student-athletes received preferential access to these anomalous courses, enrolled in these anomalous courses at a disproportionate rate to that of the general student body and received other impermissible benefits not available to the general student body in connection with these courses.
Agreed. If the NCAA didn't think there was preferential treatment they wouldn't have sent out the NOA. They aren't in the business of sending those out to organizations they are accusing of keeping all the rules. I'm just telling you the weakness is in the fact that other students benefited as well. What is beyond any doubt is that UNC acted as a scummy academic institution.
They handle that in the paragraph above:
"student-athletes received preferential access to these anomalous courses, enrolled in these anomalous courses at a disproportionate rate to that of the general student body"
I give you a lot of credit. You sure nailed uncfaninky with your posts. Thanks! I am laughing my head off about that one. I guess that explains how a Kentucky boy can be a UNC fan. He must have been dropped on his head when he was a baby. He ain't too smart.
So if I give out 50K to 6 different UK students... 3 being UK players and 3 being regular students... that it makes it ok? Just because some regular students also benefited ? B.S.
The point is.... UNC was steering players into those courses.
The point is.... UNC was steering players into those courses.
I don't think most of you all realize how NOA's work. When they accuse you of something it's like pressing charges. You aren't guilty yet. If so, there would already be sanctions. You have a chance to defend yourself. The NCAA is alleging there were improper benefits and is laying out their case. If the NOA was where all discussion ended, then this would be a pointless thread. It would mean it's over and the NCAA did nothing. Instead, The NOA is the starting point. Now it has to go to court.
preacherfan: I corrected some grammar errors. Let me know if you catch any more.
preacherfan: I corrected some grammar errors. Let me know if you catch any more.
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There were no classes, yet people still wants to say well it is an institution decision.
Yes, and worse than the tests Jim Harrick allowed his son to give to pass classes:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2004-03-03-harrick-exam_x.htm
"
The university agreed with the NCAA's findings, which included violations of academic fraud and improper benefits.
The NCAA concluded Harrick Jr. "fraudulently awarded grades of A to three men's basketball student-athletes" enrolled in the course he taught in the fall 2001 semester by allowing them to miss class and tests. Harrick Jr. also allegedly provided an extra benefit to student athletes by the manner in which he conducted the course, the NCAA found."
People should quit trying to justify cheaters and university employees who 'hide' these activities....there's a reason folks.
Yes, and worse than the tests Jim Harrick allowed his son to give to pass classes:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2004-03-03-harrick-exam_x.htm
"
The university agreed with the NCAA's findings, which included violations of academic fraud and improper benefits.
The NCAA concluded Harrick Jr. "fraudulently awarded grades of A to three men's basketball student-athletes" enrolled in the course he taught in the fall 2001 semester by allowing them to miss class and tests. Harrick Jr. also allegedly provided an extra benefit to student athletes by the manner in which he conducted the course, the NCAA found."
People should quit trying to justify cheaters and university employees who 'hide' these activities....there's a reason folks.
To the folks that think nothing will happen to UNC, I think you have a pleasant surprise coming. The NCAA is faced with a dilemma on this. NC is neck deep in the stinky stuff and they have essentially raised the middle finger to anyone that dares ask about it. From NC's vantage, all the world is beneath them. However, there is indisputable evidence for academic fraud which caps with SACS probation. Men's basketball is involved. We all know this. The NCAA knows this. The media appears deeply engaged in the cover-up of the century.
So here is the dilemma, if the NCAA doesn't act, member institutions will pitch a fit and the media will feed. Essentially, the NCAA starts the slide down the steep and slippery slope to dissolution. If the NCAA does act, NC will sob uncontrollably while they burn on their pedestal, the media will perform ritual suicide and Emmert will do an et tu, Brutus scene that will be great comedy. The NCAA will then proceed to shoot off its foot. So essentially, its the NCAA is faced with an us or them situation. I believe that incompetence and cowardice will win out and NC will sink into deep stinky stuff for years, hopefully.
Now one potential out is that the NCAA will absolutely shame NC while doing nothing and sacrifice UL on the altar of compliance in the highest of profiles. If this happens, I still expect the member institutions to devour the NCAA over UL's dead rotting corpse.
I do not expect nothing to happen. There will be figurative blood shed by either NC or the NCAA. There could be a sacrifice in the form of UL. In short, it should provide great sports theater for all of us. Regardless of the outcome, there will be several unemployed hookers. Popcorn at the ready.
So here is the dilemma, if the NCAA doesn't act, member institutions will pitch a fit and the media will feed. Essentially, the NCAA starts the slide down the steep and slippery slope to dissolution. If the NCAA does act, NC will sob uncontrollably while they burn on their pedestal, the media will perform ritual suicide and Emmert will do an et tu, Brutus scene that will be great comedy. The NCAA will then proceed to shoot off its foot. So essentially, its the NCAA is faced with an us or them situation. I believe that incompetence and cowardice will win out and NC will sink into deep stinky stuff for years, hopefully.
Now one potential out is that the NCAA will absolutely shame NC while doing nothing and sacrifice UL on the altar of compliance in the highest of profiles. If this happens, I still expect the member institutions to devour the NCAA over UL's dead rotting corpse.
I do not expect nothing to happen. There will be figurative blood shed by either NC or the NCAA. There could be a sacrifice in the form of UL. In short, it should provide great sports theater for all of us. Regardless of the outcome, there will be several unemployed hookers. Popcorn at the ready.
We live in a world where Hilary Clinton will escape prosecution and probably win the presidency, and UNC will escape penalties.
Welcome to the planet Earth.
Welcome to the planet Earth.
Is there an NCAA bylaw that focuses explicitly on head coaches turning a blind eye when one of their assistants is molesting little boys in the shower?
No, but the NCAA had no problem gutting Penn State over it. And Penn State didn't try to play the "that's out of your jurisdiction" card, because that would've been a PR nightmare due to the heinous acts involved.
Same thing here.
With the way you're posting here, acting like the NCAA cares about precedent, even-handedness, or what they actually have jurisdiction over, it must be the case that you either haven't looked into their history of punishments, or you're a UNC fan.
Sorry, I got carried away. I had to put something factual in that diatribe. :cool2:
Who can tell me when a level 1 NOA didn't amount to serious penalties for the institution? How about 5 level 1 NOAs ? How about if those NOS occurred over a span of 18 continuous years.
Crazy8s you can ask questions all you want to UK fans but the only answers you'll get will be forthcoming from the NCAA. You guys are totally screwed.
You know its bad when UNC was desperately trying to throw the womens basketball team in the way like operation human shield.
Sure, the UNC and the NCAA will negotiate in Summary Disposition and if they can not come to a conclusion that satisfies both parties then UNC will face the Committee on Infractions. The COI will dish out whatever the COI sees is the correct punishment or let them off.
Of Course, UNC could just choose to go before the COI and skip Summary Disposition if I remember correctly. The rumor was UNC was trying to stack the COI in their favor. The other rumor is the NCAA crushed that but you know these are just rumors.
I answered your "weakest part of the case" question with the NCAA charge. The NOA shows how the NCAA can penalize UNC's men's basketball if the NCAA wants. If the NCAA let's UNC's men's basketball team skate that will illustrate that the NCAA is as corrupt as we all think it is.
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Dean E. Smith was the architect of the scam, greatest cheating scandal in the history of the NCAA. It is clear why no one has ever been the coach of the Tar Heels since Dean stepped down. It is like John Grishman's novel "The Firm." If the NCAA does not put the death penalty on them, and erases at least 2 maybe three national championships, etc....cripples them for about 5 years, then I am through with college athletics...including my alma mater UK. For 50 years UK athletics have been a big part of my life....my main hobby. If North Carolina skates, I am done with all college sports including sadly, UK. I will have to do something else for a hobby. All the years of arrogance, condensing attitudes, holier than thou, we are the only program that doesn't break the rules, on and on and on...If they aren't nailed...that is it.
Understood. Your comments are very reasonable, and I agree with them for the most part. Honestly my complaints are more towards others that state things far more absolutely. "(A)s corrupt as we all think it is" may be a little out of the scope of my comfort (because I'm convinced some believe Mark Emmert is a cannibal that eats student-athletes for breakfast), but if you mean that letting the "team skate" could be a sign of corruption instead of absolute proof beyond any possible doubt of corruption, then I agree with you. My biggest complaint is when people make absolute statements that leave no room to back down if/when more comes to light (e.g. - Rick bashing the media about talking about the "false" accusations). We can be fans and still be reasonable.
One word answer: NEVER...the ncaa will conclude it is an academic matter and out of their control
The NCAA does not require absolute proof. It is not a court of law. It is a private institution that can even make up the rules as it goes along (Penn St.). This isn't a murder case in a court of law. You UNC fans can salve your feelings with that I guess. I feel sorry that you guys cannot hold your university to a high standard. The Wainstein report provided by UNC shows you did it. SACS has placed you on probation for a reason. The NOA charges UNC with providing a disproportional number of fake classes to athletes. I am not sure what more you need to know. UNC should have self imposed a long time ago.
My comment didn't talk about "absolute proof" being needed by the NCAA. The NCAA isn't upfront (as far as I know) as to what burden of proof must be met. (Even the court system has varying degrees of proof depending on criminal vs. civil court.) That's part of what makes things so hard to predict. As far as the Penn St. situation is concerned, I hate that the NCAA decided it had that authority and that they were left unchecked. As I said before, prison was deserved, a football team being put on probation was not. Maybe I'm just hoping the NCAA will apply their own procedures and enforce already existing rules. Admittedly, that may be too much to ask.
edit: When I talked about "absolute proof" it was in reference to the post I quoted about the NCAA being corrupt. It was intended to address the level of confidence people seem to have when concluding that the NCAA is corrupt based on outcomes in a few cases (or in this case one potential outcome of this one case).
UNC is trying to use a technicality to get off. You're fans lack of outrage at this and this entire scam is amazing. You're university has sold its academic soul for athletic glory. You're fans spent decades telling us how clean you were and meanwhile you're university was running a diploma mill the entire time.
It's not a muddy situation. It's actually pretty cut and dry. There were benefits provided to athletes that were clearly not available to normal students. The NCAA limited the NOA to these benefits to avoid any muddy situations.
There are zero instances of non-athletics academic advisors doing things like recommending grades to professors or suggesting classroom assignments for non-athletes. And this behavior is outside of the job description for both athletics and non-athletics advisors. It is crystal clear that athletic advisors crossed a line that normal advisors were not.
Had any non-athletic advisors done so, UNC would've presented this during the joint investigation with the NCAA and the NOA wouldn't have been issued.
Wrong. The NCAA is upfront about the proof. Each charge is supported by factual information, which you'll see labeled as "FI" in the UNC NOA. The factual information included in the NOA is the result of a joint investigation with the school, and likewise, the drafting of the NOA is a joint exercise between the NCAA and the school under investigation. There is no ambiguity about the proof.
I am glad you have your grammar right. Now, you need to study up on how the NCAA works. The comparison to the court system is simply not accurate.
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