where's the upgrade in talent ............
- Thread starter futaba.79
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obviously I should have used the /sarcasm tags since you didn't get it. However, that is exactly what was said at Media Days. Crooms preached improved WR speed. That was exactly my point, how does the same group of guys returning minus Tony Burks equal more team speed? Obviously, Jean's flock are going to raise hell about O'Neal Wilder and other mystery freshmens, but given our track record at WR (hell on offense altogether) forgive me if I don't jump up and down because of a guy in Wilder that hasn't caught a football pass in 2 years.
pass rush if you noticed the last few years we have relied on our ends to provide pressure. Under Cheeze, you will see us utilize more linebacker and safety bllitz packages. Linebacker and safety are our strongest positions and we will utilize that athleticism to get it done. With the sitiuation at the corners, we might zone blitz to make it easier on the corners regarding coverage. We have talent at the end positions, it's just young talent, but talent regardless.
.... MSU football sees any success, even when it's coming.off 6 consecutive losing seasons, our fan base has an amazing ability to grow wool overnight. That even includes a lot of people on the Six Pack. I myself am not totally absent from falling into that trap once in a while, but it's going to take more than one good season totally out of the blue to convince me that we're not only becoming a winning program but that we're also upgrading talent. The 2008 season will go a long way in helping me sway one way or another. For now I'm still not convinced.</p>
I'll say the current recruiting class is looking very promising. and no doubt that's a bounce from the 8-win season we just pulleed off, but I firmly believe that we must continue our success this year if we want to not only keep the current commitments but get more of their caliber in future classes.</p>
I'll say the current recruiting class is looking very promising. and no doubt that's a bounce from the 8-win season we just pulleed off, but I firmly believe that we must continue our success this year if we want to not only keep the current commitments but get more of their caliber in future classes.</p>
Pat, I wish we had a Jerious every year, but those type of guys don't come around very often. I have to think that between AD, Ducre, and the Deuce-Rocker we have something better than 'adequate' talent in this backfield. That's one of the few positions I actually feel okay about. This offense is a scary thought, if not...
it didn't show in their production last year. 3.5 yards per carry (last in the SEC) last year just isn't going to cut it. Until I actually see better production, I can't grade our RBs any better than adequate. But I do think the potential is there.
futaba said:
How do you suppose anyone can justify being more talented any year than the previous without including freshmen and potential improvements over last season. If a player was already on the team, why wouldn't he have been starting last year if he was better than the guy who was starting. You have to include the predicted improvement of players (such as Carrol with another year in the system and another year removed from surgery), and you have to include freshmen.
So, people are saying that our young tight ends might be more talented than our old tight ends, even though the others had more experience. And they are saying that Carrol will improve from freshman to sophomore season like most players do....especially qbs....and especially qbs who were playing on a recently injured shoulder. And people think that Dixon, Ducre, and Elliot will be better than Dixon and Ducre circa 2007....pretty much undeniable. We might have gotten better at receiver....that remains to be seen, and it seems like we always suck here.
I don't feel like dissecting the defense right now...just pointing out to you that your stipulation that people can't use freshmen or talk about predicted improvement of players is pretty ridiculous.</p>
of the posters on this board, but I don't have "penis envy" or a "know it all attitude" like the majority ("former high school all-americans") of posters on this board. I post occasionally, but I read it for entertainment purposes only not for any inside information, because I get that right from the horse's mouth. Instead of being a smart ***, trying being a man for a change.
QB got better and deeper.
RB got better and deeper.
CoEric decided to play.
Sherrod is more talented than any lineman we've had in Croom's tenure.
Green is more talented at TE than any of those seniors that left.
Our DTs got better and deeper.
Our LBs got better and deeper.
Our safeties got better and deeper.
DE, OL, and FB are the only trouble spots as compared to last season. That said, we won several games with big defensive plays. I'm not sure we can keep doing that on a consistent basis. We should go 7-5 at worst. 9-3 at absolute best.
RB got better and deeper.
CoEric decided to play.
Sherrod is more talented than any lineman we've had in Croom's tenure.
Green is more talented at TE than any of those seniors that left.
Our DTs got better and deeper.
Our LBs got better and deeper.
Our safeties got better and deeper.
DE, OL, and FB are the only trouble spots as compared to last season. That said, we won several games with big defensive plays. I'm not sure we can keep doing that on a consistent basis. We should go 7-5 at worst. 9-3 at absolute best.
...Following MSU football is a waste of money & a waste of time.
Great thinkers like you & coach34 bring economic good tidings to the MSU fanbase.
How?
Because the compelling arguments offered by reality-based thinkers like you & coach34 have convinced the MSU fanbase that MSU football is nothing more than a scam.
The 8 win season was a scam; Croom is a scam; the current recruiting class is a scam (after all, they are all going to bail after State wins only 4 games this fall). And this year is surely a scam, because, like you have pointed out, there has been no upgrade in talent.
Due to the sudden realization MSU football is nothing more than a scam, season ticket holders are either selling off their tickets, (or not buy tickets at all) or refuse to spend 1/2 a pay check for gas to away games.
So thanks for bringing to our attention that there has been no upgrade in talent.
Upgrade in talent is a moot point anyway, because MSU football is a scam.
And frugal, honest people steer clear of scams.
Great thinkers like you & coach34 bring economic good tidings to the MSU fanbase.
How?
Because the compelling arguments offered by reality-based thinkers like you & coach34 have convinced the MSU fanbase that MSU football is nothing more than a scam.
The 8 win season was a scam; Croom is a scam; the current recruiting class is a scam (after all, they are all going to bail after State wins only 4 games this fall). And this year is surely a scam, because, like you have pointed out, there has been no upgrade in talent.
Due to the sudden realization MSU football is nothing more than a scam, season ticket holders are either selling off their tickets, (or not buy tickets at all) or refuse to spend 1/2 a pay check for gas to away games.
So thanks for bringing to our attention that there has been no upgrade in talent.
Upgrade in talent is a moot point anyway, because MSU football is a scam.
And frugal, honest people steer clear of scams.
loses Brandon Cox, probably gets an upgrade in Kodi Burns or Chris Todd. Ole Miss upgrades to Jevan Sneed. </p>
Last year, UGA introduces Knowshon Moreno, this year they'll debut Caleb King. AT UF Chris Leak, a very good QB graduates, Tim Tebow takes his place. </p>
This is what I'm talking about. </p>
Last year, UGA introduces Knowshon Moreno, this year they'll debut Caleb King. AT UF Chris Leak, a very good QB graduates, Tim Tebow takes his place. </p>
This is what I'm talking about. </p>
In fact, I think they'll struggle at that position all year unless the JUCO guy can come in and get the job done. Mississippi's QB situation almost can't help but be an upgrade. There's no doubt in my mind at all that Sneed will be better than either of the guys they had last year. Now if Sneed gets hurt, that's a whole different story. Mississippi will be wishing for the good old days of Schaeffer/Adams.
..the MSU football program is headed in proves you wrong.
Of course, I realize you are of the coach34 school of thought that believes going from a 3 win season to a 8 win season has nothing to do with things like an upgrade in talent; it has everything to do with sincerely believing it was merely a case of 8 teams screwing up enough to give MSU 8 wins.
If you want to talk mindless drivel...your whole "no upgrade in talent" argument is mindless drivel.
It has no basis in reality. It's just another in your running series of "Croom & MSU football are scams" posts.
Of course, I realize you are of the coach34 school of thought that believes going from a 3 win season to a 8 win season has nothing to do with things like an upgrade in talent; it has everything to do with sincerely believing it was merely a case of 8 teams screwing up enough to give MSU 8 wins.
If you want to talk mindless drivel...your whole "no upgrade in talent" argument is mindless drivel.
It has no basis in reality. It's just another in your running series of "Croom & MSU football are scams" posts.
After Cox's struggles early last year against K State, USF and M-State, let's not forget that past that he led Auburn to wins over Florida, Arkansas and Alabama, and did all he could in the LSU game. To think at this point that Burns and Todd represent an upgrade is full blown Auburn sheepish, and there are plenty of them out there already. The combination of Franklin's offense and Burns's wheels have some people salivating, but at last check Burns was Henigesque in his accuracy.
Did you know that the week after the MSU game, Kodi started against New Mexico State (Hal Mumme). After that, he played in every game except Bama and Georgia. Guess how many passes he completed the rest of his freshman year? One. For the rest of the year. In the bowl game. The guy may turn out to be a great quarterback, but I guess I am going into it with a healthy bit of skepticism. I am as skeptical about Carroll's arm strength as I am Kodi's accuracy. And Chris Todd is going to be hurt his entire career. He couldn't make it through spring practice without getting hurt. He'll never survive Ricky-Jean Francois piledriving him.
Did you know that the week after the MSU game, Kodi started against New Mexico State (Hal Mumme). After that, he played in every game except Bama and Georgia. Guess how many passes he completed the rest of his freshman year? One. For the rest of the year. In the bowl game. The guy may turn out to be a great quarterback, but I guess I am going into it with a healthy bit of skepticism. I am as skeptical about Carroll's arm strength as I am Kodi's accuracy. And Chris Todd is going to be hurt his entire career. He couldn't make it through spring practice without getting hurt. He'll never survive Ricky-Jean Francois piledriving him.
Garciacamebackadawg said:
</p>I am willing to bet your one of the people that was "on" the team meaning you never played but really showed good effort in practice. If you played football how about you know who the starters are. You might then know who to compete with so you might play one day.
By the way "*** munch", you should check your horses mouth for bull ****.
The fact is if you know so much how bout you point out one time where you bestowed some breaking news to this board. Please enlighten me.
UF and UGA are all at different points with their program. These programs are in a *maintain* mode and they've done a good job of that. Look at LSU, they lose Dorsey and they plug in Ricky Jean-Francois. There won't be much of a drop off at all. Hester leaves and now there are more carries for Williams, Murphy and Scott. </p>
State, on the other hand, wants to be the equal of these teams. Thus, when we lose a guy, we need a physically superior player to take his place, sombody as good as what AU and LSU have. KJ Wright for Gabe O'Neal for example. Wright might not be as productive as Gabe, but it at least looks like an upgrade talent-wise. I don't have any confidence we've done that anywhere else (though, maybe JC for Royce is a good trade).</p>
(Maybe my AU QB example was off target)</p>
</p>
State, on the other hand, wants to be the equal of these teams. Thus, when we lose a guy, we need a physically superior player to take his place, sombody as good as what AU and LSU have. KJ Wright for Gabe O'Neal for example. Wright might not be as productive as Gabe, but it at least looks like an upgrade talent-wise. I don't have any confidence we've done that anywhere else (though, maybe JC for Royce is a good trade).</p>
(Maybe my AU QB example was off target)</p>
</p>
Do you think Tim Bailey and Brandon Cooper will be more productive than Titus Brown and Avery Hannibal?
Do you think the combination of Derek Sherrod and Mark Melichar is superior to the combination of Mike Brown and Derek Sherrod?
Do you think Marcus Washington will prove to be a better CB than Anthony Johnson? </p>
Do you think the combination of Derek Sherrod and Mark Melichar is superior to the combination of Mike Brown and Derek Sherrod?
Do you think Marcus Washington will prove to be a better CB than Anthony Johnson? </p>
No, no, and no.
Answer this question: Do you think it is possible for players to improve with game experience and time within the program (conditioning, practice, etc.)?
...this is not the NFL. We lose players every 4-5 years. How do we know if Tim Bailey and Brandon Cooper are going to be any better than Titus and Avery by the time they graduate? Obviously, anytime you lose a starter to graduation, the guy that is going to step in to fill his shoes is not going to come in and immediately be as good as the graduating player, otherwise they would've started over the graduating player. The hope is that they will be as good or better than the graduating player by the time they leave.
You can't compare a true freshman to senior, experienced player. We can look back and compare Jerious to JJ since their careers are done, but it is the definition of apples to oranges to say "Robert Elliott is or is not as good as Jerious Norwood." Nobody knows.
The only halfway meaningful comparison is the ridiculous system of recruiting rankings. Titus Brown was a 2* linebacker prospect. Trevor Stigers is a 3* DE prospect. Did we get a net increase in talent when Titus left? Those rankings say so. In reality, who the hell knows? There is no way to know without it playing out.
And, as others have pointed out, any time you get a starter back, you are bettering your football team. The player should be better able to make good things happen, due less to an increase in talent and more to an increase in experience.
You can't compare a true freshman to senior, experienced player. We can look back and compare Jerious to JJ since their careers are done, but it is the definition of apples to oranges to say "Robert Elliott is or is not as good as Jerious Norwood." Nobody knows.
The only halfway meaningful comparison is the ridiculous system of recruiting rankings. Titus Brown was a 2* linebacker prospect. Trevor Stigers is a 3* DE prospect. Did we get a net increase in talent when Titus left? Those rankings say so. In reality, who the hell knows? There is no way to know without it playing out.
And, as others have pointed out, any time you get a starter back, you are bettering your football team. The player should be better able to make good things happen, due less to an increase in talent and more to an increase in experience.
this is the most JR-esque argument since HD shot JR.
Everyone loses players every year and there are question marks. I seriously doubt that whoever replaces Glenn Dorsey will be as good as Glenn Dorsey. I doubt that whoever replaces Quentin Groves will be as good as Quentin Groves. I doubt that whoever replaces Darren McFadden will be as good as Darren McFadden.
And for the love of God, can we stop using Mike Brown and Anthony Johnson as examples. They were supposed to be on this team. How many teams don't get worse when they lose an all conference player to injury, arrest, etc??
Having said that, no, we aren't where Ga or LSU are. We can't recruit 25 All Americans every year. You hope to get there, but right now, we are nowhere near that so we are even thinner at some positions.
Everyone loses players every year and there are question marks. I seriously doubt that whoever replaces Glenn Dorsey will be as good as Glenn Dorsey. I doubt that whoever replaces Quentin Groves will be as good as Quentin Groves. I doubt that whoever replaces Darren McFadden will be as good as Darren McFadden.
And for the love of God, can we stop using Mike Brown and Anthony Johnson as examples. They were supposed to be on this team. How many teams don't get worse when they lose an all conference player to injury, arrest, etc??
Having said that, no, we aren't where Ga or LSU are. We can't recruit 25 All Americans every year. You hope to get there, but right now, we are nowhere near that so we are even thinner at some positions.
Unfortunately, we can't stop using them as examples. Because the fact is they won't be on this team. Whether they were supposed to be on this team or not doesn't make a damn bit of difference. They won't be on this team. And this team will be a worse team because of it.8Dog said:
when you are talking about whether you have upgraded your talent or not. We did at those positions--they screwed up.
If you recruit the single best HS player at every position and they all get hurt, you will be worse but you had upgraded your talent. I thought that was the issue--not whether or not we will be better with or without them. As I stated, everyone gets worse when they lose an All SEC performer at a position.
If you recruit the single best HS player at every position and they all get hurt, you will be worse but you had upgraded your talent. I thought that was the issue--not whether or not we will be better with or without them. As I stated, everyone gets worse when they lose an All SEC performer at a position.
Of course nobody knows for a fact if Brandon Cooper will be as good this year as Titus Brown was last year. But it's a fairly safe bet that an inexperienced player who hasn't shown much of anything so far probably won't be All-SEC in his first year starting. Maybe he'll surprise us all and be as good as Titus, but the odds are against it. As for whether he'll be as good as a senior as Titus was as a senior, that's all well and good for the 2010 team if he is but it still wouldn't do jack **** for the 2008 team.