Will USM ever be back as a slightly respectable lower tier team?

[DerHntr]

I just can't see how they climb out of it. Here is what they are up against:

1. Two horrific seasons in a row that resulted in one win
2. Dismal recruiting for several years
3. The rise of Troy and ULL where they used to get a lot of recruits.
4. The introduction of USA in recruiting (not sure how much of an effect this has yet)
5. MSU and OM on the upswing in performance, national recognition, facilities, and a ton of new money from the SEC network
6. Awful leadership at the university who appear to be on a one to two year rotation
7. Nearly all of their fans have given up completely. If you thought their home games were a joke previously, try to find some pictures from last season.

 

[Dawg1976]

Wasn't that long ago they were CUSA champs. I think they can climb back, but it won't be easy for all the reasons you list. If we are going to play them some, I would just as soon they stay down.

 

[thekimmer]

I honestly and selfishly hope not.....

I just can't see how they climb out of it. Here is what they are up against:

1. Two horrific seasons in a row that resulted in one win
2. Dismal recruiting for several years
3. The rise of Troy and ULL where they used to get a lot of recruits.
4. The introduction of USA in recruiting (not sure how much of an effect this has yet)
5. MSU and OM on the upswing in performance, national recognition, facilities, and a ton of new money from the SEC network
6. Awful leadership at the university who appear to be on a one to two year rotation
7. Nearly all of their fans have given up completely. If you thought their home games were a joke previously, try to find some from last season.

We don't need to slice a smallish 3 million person pie up three ways. Two ways is bad enough.

I do feel for them at some level though. Perhaps they should consider dropping down to the FCS.

 

[was21]

We don't need to slice a smallish 3 million person pie up three ways. Two ways is bad enough.

I do feel for them at some level though. Perhaps they should consider dropping down to the FCS.

I don't "feel" for them. I'm old enough to remember.

 

[patdog]

Depends on what you mean by "slightly respectable lower tier team." Can they be a consistent .500 team in CUSA? Sure. Can they ever even approach what they were in the 80s? Not a chance.

 

[HD6]

Tell your brothers no.

 

[coach66]

As you so accurately point out they have a lot going against them. I don't wish

them ill, even though I suffered at their hands many times. I agree with another poster that there just isn't
enough support in our state to split it three ways.

 

[Hammer Down]

It depends on whether or not they are able to attract a good coach who's looking to step up, like Fedora. In the past, they have had success with this because guys knew there was talent enough around there to win on a C-USA level, thus they could step up to a bigger job. That's gotten tougher for the reasons you mentioned. Now, they could always get lucky and hire a good coach who is a USM guy, but that doesn't come around too often, and theirs was Jeff Bower.

So the answer is no, I don't think they can come back. Nowhere near what they were at least. The don't have the muscle to hire and keep a good coach for long enough to change things.

The entire state would be better if they just went FCS.

 

[BiscuitEater]

Biggest factor is ...

MSU and OM on the upswing in performance, national recognition, facilities, and a ton of new money from the SEC network

Someone said that their TV contract pays each team ~ $1M a year.

Meanwhile the other two SEC teams in Miss'ippi are looking at increased exposure on the SEC Network and a package that could be in the neighborhood of $35M a year per team in just a year or two.

Once the SEC Network reaches full distribution, each school in the conference is expected to receive over $35 million in revenue from the network. The SEC Network is set to launch on August 14. (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf...ion-for-each-conference-school-152409523.html

 

[patdog]

The entire state would be better if they just went FCS.

Essentially, they are FCS. The split between the 5 "haves" and the 5 "have nots" in Division I-A is much wider than it's ever been before.

 

[Dawgology]

I just can't see how they climb out of it. Here is what they are up against:

1. Two horrific seasons in a row that resulted in one win
2. Dismal recruiting for several years
3. The rise of Troy and ULL where they used to get a lot of recruits.
4. The introduction of USA in recruiting (not sure how much of an effect this has yet)
5. MSU and OM on the upswing in performance, national recognition, facilities, and a ton of new money from the SEC network
6. Awful leadership at the university who appear to be on a one to two year rotation
7. Nearly all of their fans have given up completely. If you thought their home games were a joke previously, try to find some pictures from last season.

They should just give up their program. Make their football field a Quidditch field or something. Become Mississippi State Southern Campus...assimilate with the collective.

 

[DerHntr]

The older one said last week when I was in MS...

that he might go to our game so that "he could see a real team play." I could visably see the pain.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

Opinion from a USM fan

I just can't see how they climb out of it. Here is what they are up against:

1. Two horrific seasons in a row that resulted in one win
2. Dismal recruiting for several years
3. The rise of Troy and ULL where they used to get a lot of recruits.
4. The introduction of USA in recruiting (not sure how much of an effect this has yet)
5. MSU and OM on the upswing in performance, national recognition, facilities, and a ton of new money from the SEC network
6. Awful leadership at the university who appear to be on a one to two year rotation
7. Nearly all of their fans have given up completely. If you thought their home games were a joke previously, try to find some pictures from last season.

A couple disagreements. I take exception with the use of the word "several" in #2. Fedora's classes were good. Unfortunately, most of his top players finished his last year and Ellis Johnson's first year, so they are largely gone. The younger ones have fallen behind due to a joke of a S&C program under Ellis. I don't really buy #5 either. State and Ole Miss have been better than they are now. How good State and Ole Miss are has never really mattered anyway. Kids want to play in the SEC.

#4, #6, and #7 = Dead on.

Obviously, #1 is the main thing: I have real concerns with whether or not we can recover from the last two years (well, really three because this year won't be much better) to be a consistent .500 team. We always had an edge on all of the other mid-majors around us (and could occasionally sway some of the guys toward the bottom end of Ole Miss and State's lists) because of our success. None of the other mid-majors around us were close to our program in terms of reputation. SEC schools pass you up but you want to still play for a consistent winner? You go to USM. Now? After 0-12, 1-11, and probably 3-9 at best? That 2011 season may as well be 1980.

We COULD get back to being a consistently solid team in the watered down version of C-USA. We'll never be what we were in the 80's and 90's again, though.

 

[AFDawg]

** 1 down, 9 to go.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

You made a funny

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....because our fanbase is small, right?

 

[Hammer Down]

State and Ole Miss have been better than they are now.

I agree with most all of what you say. I'm not one of those MSU/Ole Miss fans that tries to look down on USM, because I see the way other schools do it to us, and it's no fun. That said, MSU/Ole Miss both have now put huge emphasis on recruiting South MS, and that will hurt USM more than in the past. And, both MSU and Ole Miss are much more attractive than they used to be, based largely on the SEC (and good coaches at present). But, you can't bag on them for being in the SEC, that is what it is. I am definitely not ashamed of that. I see people all the time saying that Slive would cut us if he could. Well, he can't, so it doesn't matter.

 

[thekimmer]

I'm old enough to remember too (class of 83) and for that reason I am still nervous about this game no matter how bad the buzzards look on paper.

Feeling sorry for the buzzards is more related to specific friends and family who were cursed to go there & not the FB as a whole.

 

[AFDawg]

Small but very sensitive.

 

[WayboDawg]

Football aside, that whole university has a reputation in the Pine Belt area for being run poorly. Most USM alumni from this area never had much school pride even when they were doing well under Bower and Fedora. Its a completely different story with the MSU and Ole Miss alumni from my area. Even when we sucked under Sherrill and Croom, all the alumni I knew always spoke well of MSU and took any chance they could get to pay the campus a visit or buy school merchandise. Same with Ole Miss... I don't know why that is.... I just know that USM has always been a suitcase college, and MSU/Ole Miss have always been the opposite. Its like if you went to USM it was just to get your degree and get the heck out, whereas MSU/Ole Miss were more about getting your degree, enjoying the experience, and joining a family of proud alumni.

 

[thekimmer]

I agree with most all of what you say. I'm not one of those MSU/Ole Miss fans that tries to look down on USM, because I see the way other schools do it to us, and it's no fun. That said, MSU/Ole Miss both have now put huge emphasis on recruiting South MS, and that will hurt USM more than in the past. And, both MSU and Ole Miss are much more attractive than they used to be, based largely on the SEC (and good coaches at present). But, you can't bag on them for being in the SEC, that is what it is. I am definitely not ashamed of that. I see people all the time saying that Slive would cut us if he could. Well, he can't, so it doesn't matter.

You are right about the looking down part. We can identify with that. I know he can't but if he could I really don't think Slive would want to cut both MS teams. I do think he'd consider pulling the trigger on one to free up space for expanding the TV market. Based on that logic I think he'd do the same with vandy and maybe even auburn too. Conferences were originally all about proximity, common background, less travel. Now its all about maximizing revenue i.e. media exposure.

 

[Hammer Down]

I'm old enough to remember too (class of 83) and for that reason I am still nervous about this game no matter how bad the buzzards look on paper.

Feeling sorry for the buzzards is more related to specific friends and family who were cursed to go there & not the FB as a whole.

Yes, agreed, but it's not this game I am concerned about, it's the one next year in Hattiesburg. Hopefully we bury them two years in a row and put this USM stuff to bed forever.

 

[johnson86-1]

Obviously, #1 is the main thing: I have real concerns with whether or not we can recover from the last two years (well, really three because this year won't be much better) to be a consistent .500 team.

I think that is the least important thing going against USM. Pretty much every school has atrocious seasons and recovers. It's hard, but a bad stretch will not ruin a program unless there are other things keeping the school down.

USM doesn't have any problem that a lot of small schools don't face, it just no longer has the advantages that used to allow it to be successful as a middle tier school.

Like most small schools, it's all about getting lucky with a coach now. A good coach will bring USM to the top of their conference, but unfortunately the gap between major conferences and non-major conferences is big and getting bigger, so I would expect it to be very rare in the future for the CUSA champion to be able to compete with the 8th to 10th SEC team.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

I agree with most all of what you say. I'm not one of those MSU/Ole Miss fans that tries to look down on USM, because I see the way other schools do it to us, and it's no fun. That said, MSU/Ole Miss both have now put huge emphasis on recruiting South MS, and that will hurt USM more than in the past. And, both MSU and Ole Miss are much more attractive than they used to be, based largely on the SEC (and good coaches at present). But, you can't bag on them for being in the SEC, that is what it is. I am definitely not ashamed of that. I see people all the time saying that Slive would cut us if he could. Well, he can't, so it doesn't matter.

Not really sure where you're going with the last few sentences but thanks the respectful response

I just don't buy the "MSU/Ole Miss both have NOW put a huge emphasis on recruiting South MS." You've signed nine from South MS over the last three years. Secondly, how many high-profile recruits from South MS have gone to USM--not in recent years but ever? If there are high-level recruits to be found in South MS, State and Ole Miss have recruited them. It is easy to look at this year's class and say, "Obviously, State is focusing on South MS." No, State is focusing on good recruits in Mississippi and south MS happens to be where they are this year.

I agree that State and Ole Miss are more attractive to recruits than they used to be. But you've always been far more attractive to recruits than us because you are in the SEC.

Ultimately, what I'm getting at here is that our recruiting success has never hinged on State and Ole Miss. We made our bones by getting the "best of the rest"--which included some guys overlooked then who would never be overlooked now--who came into the program hungry and with a chip on their shoulder. We essentially had a monopoly on those players in the area.

In 1991, there were 13 other D1 football programs in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida (where we used to do our damage in recruiting). Ten of those were major conference programs with the only others being three Louisiana schools that we were head-and-shoulders above (LA Tech, Tulane, and ULL). Today, there are 21!! Of those eight that were added since, half of those are within five hours of us (Troy, USA, UAB, ULM). That's where it all started. We stayed afloat with our record of success. Now, we ran the ship into an iceberg.

 

[dawgstudent]

The biggest problem for USM is ULL, South Alabama and Troy.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

USM doesn't have any problem that a lot of small schools don't face, it just no longer has the advantages that used to allow it to be successful as a middle tier school.

That's the point, though. If the question is whether or not we can climb back to some level of sustained lower-tier success, you need to identify things that separate us from ULL, ULM, LA Tech, Troy, UAB, etc.--who have zero record of sustained success.

 

[patdog]

Yep and I'd add LA Tech, UAB, and Central Florida too. Back in the 80s, they didn't have any competition for the recruits the SEC schools didn't want (and could even pull in a few that some of the lesser SEC schools did want).

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

The biggest problem for USM is ULL, South Alabama and Troy.

Yeah. The problem isn't so much any particular school but just the numbers. Over the last 24 years, there have been FOUR programs to move up to D1/FBS that are within five hours of Hattiesburg. There are a total of TEN D1 programs within five hours of Hattiesburg...which is just insanity.

It was ultimately a matter of time with the absurd structure of state university systems in the South. It already cripples higher education funding, so why not football too? Now all the mid-majors that wanted to move up to D1 will devour one another, leaving no one with any consistent level of success.

 

[Hammer Down]

I just don't buy the "MSU/Ole Miss both have NOW put a huge emphasis on recruiting South MS." You've signed nine from South MS over the last three years. Secondly, how many high-profile recruits from South MS have gone to USM--not in recent years but ever? If there are high-level recruits to be found in South MS, State and Ole Miss have recruited them. It is easy to look at this year's class and say, "Obviously, State is focusing on South MS." No, State is focusing on good recruits in Mississippi and south MS happens to be where they are this year.

I agree that State and Ole Miss are more attractive to recruits than they used to be. But you've always been far more attractive to recruits than us because you are in the SEC.

True. But, I think that USM was able to keep more middle guys in the past, like a Tracy Lampley type. That's where MSU/Ole Miss was hurt....the guys that were not priorities early would commit to USM then MSU/OM would come up broke if they missed on that 4 star. Now that the SEC has exploded, it's widened that gap, and MSU can still come in and take a player late. Again, I don't say that to be all we're better than you. Plus, MSU is actively recruiting those leftover guys from the outset. McKinney, Chris Jones, the list goes on. Those types would end up being NFL stars at USM. Mullen said as much, he doesn't want another Favre or Rice get by him.

 

[johnson86-1]

That's the point, though. If the question is whether or not we can climb back to some level of sustained lower-tier success, you need to identify things that separate us from ULL, ULM, LA Tech, Troy, UAB, etc.--who have zero record of sustained success.

And I think the answer is nothing really separates USM from those schools. While USM has a decent history, the landscape has changed so much that I don't think it will matter much. ULL and La Tech actually have advantages over USM now since they have one dominant in state university to compete with (that also recruits regionally if not nationally) and a larger in state population. USM is probably similarly situated with UAB and Troy and maybe ULM. A good coach will make them good again in their conference. The only way to have sustained success in the current climate is to find a coach that's successful that wants to stick around or to be consistently good at identifying up and coming coaching talent. Neither is easy.

 

[DerHntr]

That's the point, though. If the question is whether or not we can climb back to some level of sustained lower-tier success, you need to identify things that separate us from ULL, ULM, LA Tech, Troy, UAB, etc.--who have zero record of sustained success.

Agreed. Sustained lower tier is the point. I think it will be very difficult to accomplish, even in the long term. The structure looks like it has shifted and losing momentum for probably three years might have been the catalyst to speed up the effects. It's almost like USM was protected from a lot of these changes because of a winning reputation. Now they don't have it.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

The glory years are gone

USM will henceforth be known as a school whose coach bails when he gets 6 or 7 wins in a season. It will be a farm school for young coordinators wanting some head coaching experience.

 

[dorndawg]

Hell, they damned near beat out Oklahoma for Marcus Dupree.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

Agreed. Sustained lower tier is the point. I think it will be very difficult to accomplish, even in the long term. The structure looks like it has shifted and losing momentum for probably three years might have been the catalyst to speed up the effects. It's almost like USM was protected from a lot of these changes because of a winning reputation. Now they don't have it.

Bingo.

And well put. No ****** ship metaphor needed, as in my post. The winning reputation is what separated us and yes, protected us from falling into obscurity.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

See...that's just the college football landscape. The revolving door can work if you hire smart (see Boise State). Look at Arkansas State. Granted, their coaches keep leaving after one year but they are also among the lowest paid in the country.

As much as I hated Giannini, I still maintain that the Ellis Johnson hire would not have happened under him. The entire athletic department was in disarray and without a leader. We had people running the coaching search that had no business running it. If we had some kind of stable leadership, Blake Anderson or Monken would have been hired then and we would be fine.