Williams vs Stansbury (I dont want this post getting lost)

[Coach34]

what most of us knew back then- Williams loved the coaching aspect- but hated the recruiting process. Williams loved teaching the game of basketball. He was a hardass. He didnt coddle personalities. He demanded effort- and he always got it. We may not have always been talented- but our teams under Williams ALWAYS played their *** off. So Williams was not the complete coach-<span style="text-decoration:underline"> he needed a Stansbury to help him reach the success and Final Four</span>. But make no mistake- Williams led those teams- while Stansbury played the "buddy role". And that is what a good head coach does- uses his assistants to the best of their abilities to supplement the things he cant always do.

Stansbury proved his worth as a Recruiter. And that has been his staple ever since. He gets kids in the program. That is a fact. It's what he does best as a coach. What has come into question ever since he became the head coach- is his ability to deal with the players from the Head Coach role. He recruits better- but he is not the coach Williams was/is. And I think where he has messed up is trying to be the wizard as the coach AND recruiter. He just cant do them both equally well. His ego needed to be checked a little to let some assistant coaches actually do some coaching. And that is where he has failed as a head coach- not having assistants supplement his shortcomings- thus not allowing him to reach the success that he could have.


If you disagree Goat- please give examples and dont make this a personal thread- that goes for the rest of you with an agenda as well

 

[Coach34]

what most of us knew back then- Williams loved the coaching aspect- but hated the recruiting process. Williams loved teaching the game of basketball. He was a hardass. He didnt coddle personalities. He demanded effort- and he always got it. We may not have always been talented- but our teams under Williams ALWAYS played their *** off. So Williams was not the complete coach-<span style="text-decoration:underline"> he needed a Stansbury to help him reach the success and Final Four</span>. But make no mistake- Williams led those teams- while Stansbury played the "buddy role". And that is what a good head coach does- uses his assistants to the best of their abilities to supplement the things he cant always do.

Stansbury proved his worth as a Recruiter. And that has been his staple ever since. He gets kids in the program. That is a fact. It's what he does best as a coach. What has come into question ever since he became the head coach- is his ability to deal with the players from the Head Coach role. He recruits better- but he is not the coach Williams was/is. And I think where he has messed up is trying to be the wizard as the coach AND recruiter. He just cant do them both equally well. His ego needed to be checked a little to let some assistant coaches actually do some coaching. And that is where he has failed as a head coach- not having assistants supplement his shortcomings- thus not allowing him to reach the success that he could have.


If you disagree Goat- please give examples and dont make this a personal thread- that goes for the rest of you with an agenda as well

 

[Coach34]

what most of us knew back then- Williams loved the coaching aspect- but hated the recruiting process. Williams loved teaching the game of basketball. He was a hardass. He didnt coddle personalities. He demanded effort- and he always got it. We may not have always been talented- but our teams under Williams ALWAYS played their *** off. So Williams was not the complete coach-<span style="text-decoration:underline"> he needed a Stansbury to help him reach the success and Final Four</span>. But make no mistake- Williams led those teams- while Stansbury played the "buddy role". And that is what a good head coach does- uses his assistants to the best of their abilities to supplement the things he cant always do.

Stansbury proved his worth as a Recruiter. And that has been his staple ever since. He gets kids in the program. That is a fact. It's what he does best as a coach. What has come into question ever since he became the head coach- is his ability to deal with the players from the Head Coach role. He recruits better- but he is not the coach Williams was/is. And I think where he has messed up is trying to be the wizard as the coach AND recruiter. He just cant do them both equally well. His ego needed to be checked a little to let some assistant coaches actually do some coaching. And that is where he has failed as a head coach- not having assistants supplement his shortcomings- thus not allowing him to reach the success that he could have.


If you disagree Goat- please give examples and dont make this a personal thread- that goes for the rest of you with an agenda as well

 

[Coach34]

what most of us knew back then- Williams loved the coaching aspect- but hated the recruiting process. Williams loved teaching the game of basketball. He was a hardass. He didnt coddle personalities. He demanded effort- and he always got it. We may not have always been talented- but our teams under Williams ALWAYS played their *** off. So Williams was not the complete coach-<span style="text-decoration:underline"> he needed a Stansbury to help him reach the success and Final Four</span>. But make no mistake- Williams led those teams- while Stansbury played the "buddy role". And that is what a good head coach does- uses his assistants to the best of their abilities to supplement the things he cant always do.

Stansbury proved his worth as a Recruiter. And that has been his staple ever since. He gets kids in the program. That is a fact. It's what he does best as a coach. What has come into question ever since he became the head coach- is his ability to deal with the players from the Head Coach role. He recruits better- but he is not the coach Williams was/is. And I think where he has messed up is trying to be the wizard as the coach AND recruiter. He just cant do them both equally well. His ego needed to be checked a little to let some assistant coaches actually do some coaching. And that is where he has failed as a head coach- not having assistants supplement his shortcomings- thus not allowing him to reach the success that he could have.


If you disagree Goat- please give examples and dont make this a personal thread- that goes for the rest of you with an agenda as well

 

[patdog]

I still think Stans is a better coach than he's given credit for as far as developing players and in-game coaching. But he has failed miserably at getting his players to respect and follow him and stay in the program. And that's something that's almost impossible to turn around once you lose a team. Which is why my feeling won't be hurt at all if we lose to Georgia Thursday and miss the tournament, if Stans "retires" soon aterwards.

 

[DAWG101]

But, this great set up of him the "teacher" Stan's the "recruiter" worked good for three seasons plus two nit years. I've said this before if this board been around the final four year, it would have been melt down mode. Anybody killing Williams for the vandale Thomas and Quentin smith transfers?

Stansbury has had trouble with transfers, but other teams do also, we just dont realize because we don't follow these teams. The days of bobby knight discipline yelling days are over, they don't work with kids these days. Media might play up the Jim Boheim and the Ben Howlands, but then a story leaks out about drugs and no discipline.

With all that being said, anybody that hopes msu looses Thursday should pack up and find another team root for. I've sat thru some bad sherrill, felker, croom,Williams, stansbury, Mullen, Polk, Cohen teams, and I dare say I've never rooted for us to loose

 

[Original48]

I still think Stans is a better coach than he's given credit for as far as developing players and in-game coaching.&nbsp

I don't agree with this at all. All I see is a high ball screen. And often times using it with our 6'11" Wooden Finalist who stays high after setting the screen. We are 10-0 when Moultrie scores 20+. Why don't we spend every waking hour devising ways to get it inside?

 

[Nugdawg]

I was student during the Williams era and knew the program pretty well at the time too. The players for the most part hated Williams, but they ALL a) respected his authority and b) somewhat feared consequences. I mean, they were still college kids doing college kids stuff, but they knew if they pushed the limits, there would be punishment. As a sidenote, I attended a ton of practices during my time there but without a doubt, one of the funniest things I ever saw was one day when Chancellor Nichols was forced to run suicides due to being lazy and missing class. He ran. Then he ran some more. He ran a little more after that. It was written on his face that he hated Richard because the whole time he ran, Richard yelled at him. Called him everything he could think of. Saw the same thing another time with Todd Merritt. He puked...a lot. And then when he finished puking...Richard had him running again. Of course, Merritt didn't get the message and had the positive test before the NCAA Tourney but that's another story. Sidenote to a sidenote...I once sat beside Chancellor Nichols and Doug Hartsfield in a class in Allen Hall. Nichols slid down out of his seat in this big auditorium and took a nap in the floor during class. How the teacher completely missed a 6-8 power forward in the fetal position in the back of the room, I have no idea.

Back to the point. Richard had ego. All coaches do. But, he also knew what he wasn't good at and knew Stansbury was a good recruiter as was Brady and then Kirby later.He was willing to sacrifice that part of hisego toenable him to have more success as a Head Coach. Stans, for whatever reason, was neverable to do that. Nobody is perfect. That's why you have assistants.Nothing personal to our current assistants, but none of them are employable by another major conference team with the possible exception of Grant.Richard had on his staff, Stans who became our head coach after muchado,before him he had Brady who went on to coach LSU to the Final Four,Duane Reboul who won big atBirmingham Southern, Jimmy Tillete who did well at Samford after Brady. And Kirby who is on the bench at Georgetown. Stansbury has never had one of his OWN assistants move on to anything remotely close to anupgrade in job.

So, Iagree with what coach said. Stans ismore hard headed than Polk, Croom, and Jackie combined and his ego rivalsTempleton.

 

[BogeyGolfer.sixpack]

I think you hit the nail on the head. If you're a CEO, principal, coach etc...99% of the time success isachievedbysurroundingone's self with highly skilled individuals. When egos and otherpersonalagendascome in to play, often times the goal of the organization/team is lost. We need assistant coaches to have the freedom to coach and to be able to relate to players on our team. We can besuccessfulwith a new coach and new assistant coaches, and a lot sooner than most on this board realize. I will not lose sleep if we get beat by UGA and the Stansbury era finally comes to an end.

 

[Athlete34]

Ball screen offenses use post players as the screener, that's not abnormal, it brings out a mismatch and clears the lane for penetration. Moultrie has scored a lot of his points off of the screen and roll, he's not a guy that is great at creating his own shot from a stationary position (back to the basket) from 8 plus feet away, and he hasn't scored a lot of his points that way.<div>
</div><div>You evidently haven't noticed that the slice cut is our go-to play to get Moultrie the ball with momentum towards the basket with a mismatch on a guard, or the double screen we've repeatedly used for Steele/Bost/Hood, or simple block to block screens to get our post players position.</div><div>
</div><div>The ball screen is our base offense, but that goes for most every team we play. Tell us what other teams do that you like?</div>

 

[DAWG101]

Cunningham has had offer from small school, stansbury got offer when he was assistant and offered Clemson job.

 

[Coach34]

Williams and Brady's 1st recruiting class ended up winning an SEC title in 1991- that wasnt Stansbury's recruits. And we lost all those guys in 1991, much like we did in 1996. Miss State cant replace 4 or 5 starters- it always takes 2-3 years to recover- as it does the rest of the SEC except Kentucky. Stansbury help Williams rebuild after 1991- but it took a couple of years- and with great results in 1995 and 1996.

 

[MSUDawg25]

Not necessarily about Williams being better than Stans, but about the fact that Stansbury was a great "Yin" to Williams' "Yang", and the fact that Stans has refused to hire an assistant who would be a real contributor. I am mostly neutral to supportive of stansbury, but I hate his selection of assistants. I don't know if he is scared to hire an assistant who is better than him at anything, but I don't feel that any of our assistants are really worth a ****. I mean honestly, what is their role?

 

[Original48]

You evidently haven't noticed that the slice cut is our go-to play to get Moultrie the ball with momentum towards the basket with a mismatch on a guard, or the double screen we've repeatedly used for Steele/Bost/Hood, or simple block to block screens to get our post players position.

I too enjoyed the last few minutes of South Carolina and the Arkansas game. I just wish we would have been doing more of this all year instead of waiting til the last game and 4 minutes of OT vs SC. And as far as what other teams I like, I think we should pattern our ball screens after pretty much whoever we play. We seem to have quite a bit of trouble defending it. I'm sorry if that seems like a knock on our coach. Maybe our players just aren't listening in practice.

 

[patdog]

just how bad it was. Dick Vitale said the MSU coaching job was the worst job in Division I basketball. And nobody disagreed with him. Remember, the SWAC and a lot of really small schools are in Div. I basketball. It really was that bad. I've seen plenty of games against schools like Kentucky where we were down something like 50-16 at halftime. And when we played Mississippi or Kentucky 1/3 of the coliseum would be full of their fans. We went 3-15 in the SEC in back to back seasons, and had to pull off a couple of big upsets to get that many wins.

 

[BriantheDawg]

I actually agree with every single thing you just said.

 

[LR1400]

Great points noting that Williams had many move on to other jobs and Bury has had none, except Stan Jones.....and now Kirby (not really Bury's assistant).

 

[Beardo.sixpack]

If Dick was such an amazing coach, he wouldn't be an assistant at Ark-State, just sayin'.....

 

[Coach34]

Richard Williams is a good coach. But he is also old now- not much calling for a 60 year old + coach in today's basketball. He hated recruiting in 1985- can you imagine him doing it now in 2012????

Williams just liked to coach- he hated the recruiting, the coddling, and having to keep tabs on his players. He wanted mf'ers that showed up at practice ready to learn about basketball.

 

[Beardo.sixpack]

Richard Williams is a good coach. But he is also old now- not much calling for a 60 year old + coach in today's basketball. He hated recruiting in 1985- can you imagine him doing it now in 2012????

Williams just liked to coach- he hated the recruiting, the coddling, and having to keep tabs on his players. He wanted mf'ers that showed up at practice ready to learn about basketball.

Semantics leading to condescension, eh? Under your screen name you should post your resume, so we all can see what makes you such an authority in the intricacies of college basketball.

 

[DAWG61]

For some reason Richard Williams keeps getting brought up this week. Why? He didn't have amazing success so why are we bringing a dusty skeleton back from the grave? Does Stansbury have as many NCAA wins as him? No. Has Stansbury been a more successful coach than Williams? Yes he has. Put the dead body back in the grave.

 

[cougardawg]

I grew up with and around Richard and his family, he was good athigh school basketball and a very good baseball player (southpaw)
but what really set him apart was he was mostly smarter. A math major at MSU who sat and watched Babe and his boys practice.

I ran into him the week he was hired as head coach, and he said it was because they were only havaing to pay him around 45000 andit was all they wanted to spend.
He worked at getting to be a better coach, hewatched and listened to other coaches.
Maybeit was theway Stans was hired, following Richard, but he has been determined to be his own guy.

BTW Richard stil enjoys practice and he does it well.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

That is some Grade A Obtuseness you're showing there because Richard Williams has one thing no one else in Mississippi has-- being the head coach of a Division I Final Four team. I, for one, would call that amazing success especially when considering that Mississippi State University was the Mariana Trench of college basketball in the mid-80s.

 

[fishwater99]

You must have still been in diapers in 1996. He put MSU back on the basketball map. Our teams were horrible before he became the coach. He wasn't a good recruiter, but he hired some to be his assistants. It takes time to build a program, ask Mullens... Stans just took what Dick started and kept it going, minus the coaching. We never know what he could have done because he was forced out for liking 20 year old camel toe...

 

[DAWG61]

That is some Grade A Obtuseness you're showing there because Richard Williams has one thing no one else in Mississippi has-- being the head coach of a Division I Final Four team. I, for one, would call that amazing success especially when considering that Mississippi State University was the Mariana Trench of college basketball in the mid-80s.

I should have chose my words better. I'm just confused by all the recent talk about a man that was coaching here 15 years ago. Did something happen this week that I'm unaware of to bring his name back up or are we just simply talking about him because Stansbury might be winding down on his tenure at State?

 

[Bulldog Backer]

I was student during the Williams era and knew the program pretty well at the time too. The players for the most part hated Williams, but they ALL a) respected his authority and b) somewhat feared consequences. I mean, they were still college kids doing college kids stuff, but they knew if they pushed the limits, there would be punishment. As a sidenote, I attended a ton of practices during my time there but without a doubt, one of the funniest things I ever saw was one day when Chancellor Nichols was forced to run suicides due to being lazy and missing class. He ran. Then he ran some more. He ran a little more after that. It was written on his face that he hated Richard because the whole time he ran, Richard yelled at him. Called him everything he could think of. Saw the same thing another time with Todd Merritt. He puked...a lot. And then when he finished puking...Richard had him running again. Of course, Merritt didn't get the message and had the positive test before the NCAA Tourney but that's another story. Sidenote to a sidenote...I once sat beside Chancellor Nichols and Doug Hartsfield in a class in Allen Hall. Nichols slid down out of his seat in this big auditorium and took a nap in the floor during class. How the teacher completely missed a 6-8 power forward in the fetal position in the back of the room, I have no idea.

Back to the point. Richard had ego. All coaches do. But, he also knew what he wasn't good at and knew Stansbury was a good recruiter as was Brady and then Kirby later.He was willing to sacrifice that part of hisego toenable him to have more success as a Head Coach. Stans, for whatever reason, was neverable to do that. Nobody is perfect. That's why you have assistants.Nothing personal to our current assistants, but none of them are employable by another major conference team with the possible exception of Grant.Richard had on his staff, Stans who became our head coach after muchado,before him he had Brady who went on to coach LSU to the Final Four,Duane Reboul who won big atBirmingham Southern, Jimmy Tillete who did well at Samford after Brady. And Kirby who is on the bench at Georgetown. Stansbury has never had one of his OWN assistants move on to anything remotely close to anupgrade in job.

So, Iagree with what coach said. Stans ismore hard headed than Polk, Croom, and Jackie combined and his ego rivalsTempleton.

....this ^^^^^^.

I was a classmate of Richard Williams at MSU and regularly played "pickup basketball" with him. We had a couple of classes together, including an early morning PE Class as freshmen, and we would get there early and play ball. Like Nugdawg, I attended Richard's practices for the entire 1997-1998 season. Richard was a true student of the game of basketball, despite being a mathematician by academic preparation. He was a tough, disciplined coach. Rick Stansbury had little role in the practices. Like Nug said, Richard would hurt a player's feelings, then have Rick go over and put his arm around them and settle them down, when Rick was there. Much of the time, Rick was on the road recruiting. I often wondered who turned Richard in for having "inappropriate" relations with a legal aged female not his wife. Duane Reboul was LT's choice to replace Richard. Rick had played the political cards to replace Richard and I know that he was not Richard's choice.

 

[goatherder]

I have never figured out why a final 4 coach is now an assistant at Arkansas State and has never been offered a D1 head coaching job? Maybe one of you can expain that to me.

 

[GloryDawg]

bd

 

[Coach34]

dont feel that a pom-pom girl is a just reward for making a Final Four....I disagree with those people. A Final Four should be worth 3 or 4 pom-pom girls to the coach

 

[Beretta.sixpack]

I was at my daughter's soccer practice the other night, and 2 dads didn't get the memo that it was canceled....me being one, and the other was one dad i hadn't met nor seen....well, to make it short, it was a former player during my time at State....we took our daughter's across the fields to a private area and we practiced with our girls....just me, him and our girls....I don't know if its appropriate to state his name with his comments without his permission, seeing it was just the 2 of us talking....but most of you familiar with the late 90s teams should be able to figure out who it is....

conversation started about our current team, and Ill give you what he said, but the most interesting comments were Williams v. Stansbury....

first off, he thinks this team is in.....Sydney could very well be the cancer that causes Stansbury to lose his job.....his best team probably ever, and Sydney holding them back...

he also said almost verbatim, exactly what Shane Power said.....Stans is a much better coach than people give him credit for, and not as a great recruiter as many think....

His opinion of the whole fire/keep Stans is to keep him.....he told me, something like 3 most wins ever in SEC overall, 6 most wins in SEC history....( i wasn't sure the difference, but i got his point)....he said that there are only 2 coaches in the SEC that are better than Stans in SEC now, UF and UK....I made the point to him (i am not a Stans supporter) that the bottom line is, you are judged by Tourney appearances and success in it.....he totally agreed and that is when he went back to say that he thinks this team is better than its record shows, and Sydney has caused more losses and turmoil than games he has helped us win....and it very well could cost Stansbury his job......

He went further to say "right now" i say Stans needs to stay....he is 3rd best coach in this league, and it is a risky move to get rid of Stansbury right now (he used the term 'risky' several times).....he mentioned Pelphry as a guy that was fired prematurely and was a great coach...

now, he played with williams as head coach and stans as HC......he said much what C34 said about Williams.....the players respected him, and he was a hard ***.....he was the disciplinarian that is what this current team would need right now.....he said guys WOULD NOT take shots in games for fear of being pulled out of the game....on the other hand, he said Stansbury lets them "play" and that is the main difference between the two coaching styles....

One thing I have never known about Stansbury, and he mentioned that "what most people don't (didn't) know about Stansbury".....is that during the RW era, Stansbury did all of the scouting of the opposing teams, ALL the game planning, and writing up all the plays that would work for a particular game, also did all the recruiting and keeping in touch with the recruits, not RW.....in turn, he mentioned, because Stans did all that, then we had the Final 4 run, is what led to RW's arrogance that eventually cost him his job.....after the Final Four, RW became very arrogant, and did no recruiting (Stans did all of that too).....said RW became the coach that showed up only at practices and games....and it became very obvious to both the players, assistant coaches, and the AD.....and that is why RW was forced out....i thought that was interesting.....He did say, that he thinks that may be Stans problem, that he tries to do too much as a HC and doesn't pass along enough responsibilities to his assistants...

a couple of more interesting things he told me, when I said I think its a bad thing with a team when they have a players only meeting (much like Colin Cowherd says).....he went on and said they had a few players only meetings, including one during the FF run.....another story he told me, during the SEC tourney, 20 guys were crammed into a hotel room, and Stans addresses the team, and about 3 mins into him talking a loud roar of a snore lets out.....it was Dampier and he was sound asleep....the whole team busted out laughing....Stans never said another word, and they went out and beat Kentucky....(i am assuming that was the 96 championship game)....

again, I was gonna post this at some point, but I thought this thread was worthy for the reply....

 

[dawgstudent]

[No message]

 

[tenureplan]

Jones got to school 3 weeks late, and never went to a single class. Hyche smoked weed and partied all throughout the basketball season. How's that for discipline?

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

It is great to hear some first hand information rather than speculation.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

dont feel that a pom-pom girl is a just reward for making a Final Four....I disagree with those people. A Final Four should be worth 3 or 4 pom-pom girls to the coach

Ahh, morally bankrupt is okay as long as you win.

Got it.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

Some of the teams I played on as a youth, if we had had a guy that lazy starting and getting the PT he does, we would have hated our coach. He has made some plays but he has missed many, many more that were there for the taking had he wanted it as badly as he did when he punched his own teammates lights in front of live cameras. The guy is an *** hole and cancer to the team. The net affect he has had on this team is not positive.</p>

 

[seshomoru]

The comment about Stansbury being a better coach than he gets credit for and a worse recruiter than he gets credit for is something I used to harp on a lot before Coach34 completely hijacked the entire basketball discussion on this board.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

stan jones was my head coach in 9th grade. when he popped up at MSU, he had come from elsewhere... and has since returned to what i would refer to as "his" mentor. i wouldn't count coach jones as one of rick's at all.

as for the rest of this tangent... some minor points were enlightening, but for the most part it is the same as i recollect about my days at State.

 

[lanceharbor7]

NM

 

[cougardawg]

He was offered two HC jobs, Lamar and UNC Charlotte

 

[maroonmania]

another guy that transferred out of Williams program.