I'm hoping after yesterday's debacles on the field that the IHSA will realize that they should be seeding 1-32 in all classes! They definitely did not have good match ups and were some of the worst state games i've ever seen. Wake up and smell the roses!!
Yesterday's blowouts...wake up IHSA!
- Thread starter Ogre5530
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Seeding of the bracket wasn't the problem, letting schools make a mockery of the rules and remain in 3A and 4A is the problem..
The tops teams in 4a are Rockford, Rochester and Althoff - NW, Central and SW IL.
AND THEN THERE IS PHILLIPS!!! Monster of Midway -head and shoulders above the rest.
I think 1-32 seeds in 4a would have churned the same result - Phillips whips anyone in the class.
That happens sometimes
AND THEN THERE IS PHILLIPS!!! Monster of Midway -head and shoulders above the rest.
I think 1-32 seeds in 4a would have churned the same result - Phillips whips anyone in the class.
That happens sometimes
It all goes in cycles......since 2010 with 8 classes and seeding pretty much consistent in that same time frame here's the average scoring difference 2010 /20.8,2011/13.7,2012/15.2,2013/13.3 and just last year it was the lowest in that time frame at 12.6 per game....how was last year so different from this year in seeding and number of classes??? It wasn't.
Helfgot in the Tribune talks about this very thing:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/highschool/ct-prep-fb-helfgot-blog-113015-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/highschool/ct-prep-fb-helfgot-blog-113015-story.html
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It's not hard to see there are flaws in the system. I'm a catholic school graduate and I know they have a definite advantage. For someone to say their isn't should get their head out of the clouds and wake up. Naz could have beaten just about anyone in any class this year for example.
Go 1-32 seeding. Why is Naz/JCA playing in the 2nd round of the playoffs? Everyone knew this was the state title game.
Why in the past is Montini playing JCA in the 2nd round of 5A. Everyone knew this was at least a semifinal matchup.
Go 1-32.
Why in the past is Montini playing JCA in the 2nd round of 5A. Everyone knew this was at least a semifinal matchup.
Go 1-32.
Just because it was a good year for Catholic schools doesn't mean they have some unrealistic advantage.
Between 1975 and 1987 LA didn't make the IHSA playoffs once. Their nearest public school NT made the playoffs 7 times.
I notice he doesn't mention Phillips in his piece when he mentions recruiting - and not solely of 8th graders, either.
I agree in the first post they need to do a better job seeding. In 8A, how HF this year, after being #1 in the Chicagoland polls for so long be #8 in the playoffs is mind boggling. More factors than won/loss has to be considered. LA/HF should have been #1/#2 in the seedings.
As far as the catholic/private advantage and separation, I think its a knee-jerk reaction. Things were kinda bad this year but as mentioned in another thread, it's a statistical anomaly (in 8A) as publics have done very well in the past years (LA has been a victim of MS's success for awhile along with Bolingbrook and Stevenson). If IHSA rules for separate public/private championships I think that would be a shame and wouldn't stop all this banter back and forth on who is the "real" number 1. It would just cause more confusion. You would just see the same well-to-do and large public schools up top year after year, same as it is now for the most part. Even with the multiplier and success factor, privates are going to find a way to compete, they're just not going to go away. If that's the case and there's still an outcry, then separation may be the only solution...again that would not solve the "who's really #1" issue that everybody always wants an answer to.
I don't think the kids who play for the privates are necessarily more gifted/talented (historically lack of size and just the lack of D1 recruits in LA case proves that) they just are better coached, trained and disciplined. Same deciding factors parents send their kids to private school to begin with.
As far as the catholic/private advantage and separation, I think its a knee-jerk reaction. Things were kinda bad this year but as mentioned in another thread, it's a statistical anomaly (in 8A) as publics have done very well in the past years (LA has been a victim of MS's success for awhile along with Bolingbrook and Stevenson). If IHSA rules for separate public/private championships I think that would be a shame and wouldn't stop all this banter back and forth on who is the "real" number 1. It would just cause more confusion. You would just see the same well-to-do and large public schools up top year after year, same as it is now for the most part. Even with the multiplier and success factor, privates are going to find a way to compete, they're just not going to go away. If that's the case and there's still an outcry, then separation may be the only solution...again that would not solve the "who's really #1" issue that everybody always wants an answer to.
I don't think the kids who play for the privates are necessarily more gifted/talented (historically lack of size and just the lack of D1 recruits in LA case proves that) they just are better coached, trained and disciplined. Same deciding factors parents send their kids to private school to begin with.
The only thing that changed this year which was a bad move is moving Montini and SHG to 6A.. Montini in 5A puts JC in the south with SHG and Crete. This would have put Montini against Naz somewhere near the semi with JC facing SHG at some point. This would create a 5A finals with two of the four teams listed. This change may have kept Cary in 6A along with Auburn. 7A was fine as well as 8A. 4A should have included Mac which would have been perfect.
What many people don't realize was class 5A with Montini and SHG in it is probably the most competitive playoff bracket of the 8 classes and by far much stronger than the 6A field.
By moving Montini and SHG up to 6A, aren't you really moving them down a class because I believe 5A is much better than 6A.
If you believe my second statement it true also, it shows the IHSA should have left things alone when we had 6 classes and 1-32 seeding. LIke I always tell our IT Department, what they call a system upgrade many times is a system downgrade. They just don't use it everyday to figure things out.
Wassup
By moving Montini and SHG up to 6A, aren't you really moving them down a class because I believe 5A is much better than 6A.
If you believe my second statement it true also, it shows the IHSA should have left things alone when we had 6 classes and 1-32 seeding. LIke I always tell our IT Department, what they call a system upgrade many times is a system downgrade. They just don't use it everyday to figure things out.
Wassup
MCHS,
I could see that, but if you moved Montini and SHG back to 5A this year, would it be stronger than 6A? I think 5A also looks stronger if the brackets did not make Montini, SHG, Naz, JCA have to play each other until the semi's if they kept winning.
I could see that, but if you moved Montini and SHG back to 5A this year, would it be stronger than 6A? I think 5A also looks stronger if the brackets did not make Montini, SHG, Naz, JCA have to play each other until the semi's if they kept winning.
South was brutal . North was a cakewalk in 6A as was 5A only teams in the north that had a shot were PR- MCHS and JCA-Naz the rest were all pretenders.
If you had Montini, SHG, Naz, JCA in 5A this year it would have been great.
My question is will SHG go back down to 5A next year?
The paper hides black on white crime so he sure wasn't going to talk about Phillips recruiting
The number one issue is climate change. If we could fix that all of the other problems could work themselves out!
I remember when there used to be a saying that went.."blame the weather!" Looks like some people are actually doing that.
We talk about recruiting (really just loose boundaries) in the CPS but if one thinks about it, the 1970s era program that paved the way for this - Options for Knowledge - was a better alternative than the forced busing that afflicted other big-city public school districts.
When I moved here after my little camping trip in SE Asia courtesy of Uncle Sam CVS and Lane each had outstanding football programs. Each had half of the city and their coaches worked for the Park District during the summer. Kids practiced all year for the most part. They never complained when they lost. Today everyone whines.
1-32 is not perfect but it got us the best final with 7A and look at all the great games as well in 8A ie Marist first 3 games all decided by 3, Palatine Sandburg round 1 last play of game, Stevenson Conant barnburner, WV Eville 3 point game, Gurnee Curie barburner, BR S Elgin and Palatine close games.
MC got GW round 2 but totally different if they don't take 0 points on that forfeit. 1-32 not perfect but you take out all the politics with it and again it got us best final and series of games in 8A.
MC got GW round 2 but totally different if they don't take 0 points on that forfeit. 1-32 not perfect but you take out all the politics with it and again it got us best final and series of games in 8A.
Looks like the media can no longer turn a blind eye to what is clear for everyone to see. I applaud Helfgot.
7A is where it worked and a MC that some MC fans here call the worst team in years nearly knocked off the champ in rd 2. I think Marist making the 8A championship proves Naz and JCA are closer to 8A public teams than the current schools they play and would be better served playing 8A... if there is no split.
But as Helfgot suggests, the split is needed.
7A is where it worked and a MC that some MC fans here call the worst team in years nearly knocked off the champ in rd 2. I think Marist making the 8A championship proves Naz and JCA are closer to 8A public teams than the current schools they play and would be better served playing 8A... if there is no split.
But as Helfgot suggests, the split is needed.
Exactly Bones
You have seen my posts saying the very same thing. I made comments.
*Private schools have a huge
competitive advantage. Their enrollments are not restricted by geographical boundaries, and they actively recruit students in order to stay in business.
The playing field is simply not level, and the success factor isn’t going to make it so.
Peoples like Ramblingman want to argue about the recruiting but anyone with half a brain can see what's been going on. I posed a question about 1188 public schools in Illinois and 331 privates. How is it year in and year out privates win as many or more state championships than publics that have 4 times as many schools. Crickets! Recruiting that's how. We don't even want to go down the road of certain privates making the playoffs almost every year. How is that happening. Open your blind eyes and look in the mirror. The Tribune wrote an entire article about it yet privates want to say publics are whine. I don't see it that way. I think publics just want the system to be fair and a level playing field. Let publics recruit a 30 mile radius see what happens? I know that would never happen but that would definitely change the playing field. Listen I like everyone on this site dont know the right answer to the issue but what we have now clearly gives the privates an unfair advantage and needs to be changed. Bumping privates up in class is not the answer.
Agreed, except I would surmise that for the majority of the schools in question, they sell themselves, the football players show up... But either way it doesnt negate the reality of enrollment being irrelevant for classification, especially in regards to their closed boundaried counterparts. This includes schools like Phillips, although with them being a hybrid of the two I am torn on how to handle it.
I particularly find humor in labeling people who want to see more equitable playoffs as haters and whiners. But I suppose self delusion is tough to overcome. Personally I love the non-conference matchups because these schools typically try to schedule a competitive game ie Montini's non-con games vs publics are not against the publics in the same class, theyre against the very best of the top two classes and ESL. They clearly see themselves as at that level. They joined a conference where they crossover with the CCL Blue, and win.
I think the most telling part about the whole issue is that they don't want to play each other. That says the most if you ask me.
Whiner! Get better. Don't make your inability to compete our problem. Don't try to weaken the strong private programs in the name of parity. That is discriminatory. Work harder. Don't take the easy way out which is to weaken your competition. Other public schools have proven that being competitive against private schools CAN be done.
You are hilarious, Bones. You want JCA to be 8A when they haven't won a title in 8 years?
Yeah, the reason they haven't won is Montini/SHG and an anomaly. You know that the other 28 schools in that class are nowhere near the level of the schools in question, who are also regularly better than the majority of 8A playoff teams. Frankly even having this discussion seems silly to me.
Here is what I (and you) know: There are 5A, 6A and 7A schools, both private AND public, that are among the top 32 schools in this state. You and I also know that there are 8A schools that couldn't win a first round game in 6A, much less 8A. Where you and I differ is that you want to push only those competitive private schools into 8A. I say if you do that, without also moving up competitive public schools, then that is discriminatory and wrong. How you or anyone fail to acknowledge that is mystifying.
2 things
8A is a classification, not a description. That is important, as is the reason for classifications. These schools are going to generally be similar... because they have similar enrollments. When I describe a open boundaried school as 8A I am referring to those similarities. When schools' whose enrollments mean nothing share similarities of one class as opposed to another it is worth taking note.
Secondly, split. I agree pushing schools up isnt necessarily fair, because enrollment means nothing to open enrollment schools. Thus the fair way to set up a post season tournament would be to group similar schools together. If you have to recruit each student you get, you should play against other schools who also recruit each student they get. Its a more equitable system than trying to compare apples and oranges.
Bla bla bla
You are happy because you enjoy recruiting and pumping your chest on how good you are but in the end you have an advantage that is undeniable and your getting called out by everyone including the news reporters. This crap
has been a long time coming. Enjoy
Your advantage I think you need it. It makes you a real man. Lol
Whatever
Your trying to hold on to the unfair advantage with recruiting. Let all the public schools recruit. You still haven't answered how 331 privates can will at such a rate compared to 1188 publics. How does threat happen? Recruiting that's how.
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