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NukeDogg

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Curious if anyone knows the actual official ruling here. I grew up playing baseball from age 5 to 18, couldn't hit a curve so no college for me but I've been a fan of the game all my life and I was stumped as to how to rule this.

10U travel ball game. 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd. Runner on 3rd is fastest kid on the field.
Batter gets jammed and hits a little flare to the 1st base side of the mound. Pitcher lunges and catches it in the air, falling to his knees for Out #2. Runner at 3rd headed home on contact, doesn't see the ball is caught, and crosses the plate as the pitcher is scrambling up from his knees. Pitcher sees the runner at 1st also left on contact and throws to 1st to double him up for Out #3. Defense leaves the field thinking they got 3 outs, so no need to appeal to 3rd for him leaving early because you can't get 4 outs.

Hitting team's coach comes out and argues that the run counts, because Out #3 wasn't a force out, the runner crossed the plate before Out #3 was made, and no appeal to 3rd was ever made.
Fielding team's coach hears this, comes out and argues the run doesn't count because he never tagged up.

What's the ruling? Does the run count or not?
 
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lutedog

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NukeDogg said:
Curious if anyone knows the actual official ruling here. I grew up playing baseball from age 5 to 18, couldn't hit a curve so no college for me but I've been a fan of the game all my life and I was stumped as to how to rule this.

10U travel ball game. 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd. Runner on 3rd is fastest kid on the field.
Batter gets jammed and hits a little flare to the 1st base side of the mound. Pitcher lunges and catches it in the air, falling to his knees for Out #2. Runner at 3rd headed home on contact, doesn't see the ball is caught, and crosses the plate as the pitcher is scrambling up from his knees. Pitcher sees the runner at 1st also left on contact and throws to 1st to double him up for Out #3. Defense leaves the field thinking they got 3 outs, so no need to appeal to 3rd for him leaving early because you can't get 4 outs.

Hitting team's coach comes out and argues that the run counts, because Out #3 wasn't a force out, the runner crossed the plate before Out #3 was made, and no appeal to 3rd was ever made.
Fielding team's coach hears this, comes out and argues the run doesn't count because he never tagged up.

What's the ruling? Does the run count or not?
Click to expand...
This is a bit of an obscure rule, but the run should count unless they appeal at 3rd for the "4th out." Also, most of the information in this thread is incorrect--the double-up at first base is not a force play.

 
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jethreauxdawg

jethreauxdawg

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NukeDogg said:
Curious if anyone knows the actual official ruling here. I grew up playing baseball from age 5 to 18, couldn't hit a curve so no college for me but I've been a fan of the game all my life and I was stumped as to how to rule this.

10U travel ball game. 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd. Runner on 3rd is fastest kid on the field.
Batter gets jammed and hits a little flare to the 1st base side of the mound. Pitcher lunges and catches it in the air, falling to his knees for Out #2. Runner at 3rd headed home on contact, doesn't see the ball is caught, and crosses the plate as the pitcher is scrambling up from his knees. Pitcher sees the runner at 1st also left on contact and throws to 1st to double him up for Out #3. Defense leaves the field thinking they got 3 outs, so no need to appeal to 3rd for him leaving early because you can't get 4 outs.

Hitting team's coach comes out and argues that the run counts, because Out #3 wasn't a force out, the runner crossed the plate before Out #3 was made, and no appeal to 3rd was ever made.
Fielding team's coach hears this, comes out and argues the run doesn't count because he never tagged up.

What's the ruling? Does the run count or not?
Click to expand...
Run doesn’t count. The third out was recorded on that play. And getting the runner going back to first is a force out. You can just step on the bag, you don’t have to tag the runner.
 
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Dawgg

Dawgg

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Run doesn't count. The kid at 3rd never tagged up to get home. The kid going back to 1st is a force out because he was 'forced' to go back to 1st base.

Worst case scenario, the fielding team could walk over to 3rd base and step on it.
 
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goodknight

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Differing opinions. Run scores if he crossed the plate before the 3rd out was recorded if the 3rd out was not a force out assuming runner at 3rd did not leave early. If he left early and didn’t tag up run does not count.
 
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mstateglfr

mstateglfr

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goodknight said:
Differing opinions. Run scores if he crossed the plate before the 3rd out was recorded if the 3rd out was not a force out assuming runner at 3rd did not leave early. If he left early and didn’t tag up run does not count.
Click to expand...
The OP's scenario says the runner on 3rd didnt tag up, so there really isnt a differing opinion.

The other scenario you provide, where the run from 3rd can count if the final out is made after the runner reaches home and the final out wasnt a force out, isnt what the OP asked about. Its a totally different scenario, so it makes sense that the ruling would be different.
 
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Villagedawg

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NukeDogg said:
Curious if anyone knows the actual official ruling here. I grew up playing baseball from age 5 to 18, couldn't hit a curve so no college for me but I've been a fan of the game all my life and I was stumped as to how to rule this.

10U travel ball game. 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd. Runner on 3rd is fastest kid on the field.
Batter gets jammed and hits a little flare to the 1st base side of the mound. Pitcher lunges and catches it in the air, falling to his knees for Out #2. Runner at 3rd headed home on contact, doesn't see the ball is caught, and crosses the plate as the pitcher is scrambling up from his knees. Pitcher sees the runner at 1st also left on contact and throws to 1st to double him up for Out #3. Defense leaves the field thinking they got 3 outs, so no need to appeal to 3rd for him leaving early because you can't get 4 outs.

Hitting team's coach comes out and argues that the run counts, because Out #3 wasn't a force out, the runner crossed the plate before Out #3 was made, and no appeal to 3rd was ever made.
Fielding team's coach hears this, comes out and argues the run doesn't count because he never tagged up.

What's the ruling? Does the run count or not?
Click to expand...
Run counts unless they appeal at 3rd for the “4th Out.”

4th Out
 
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ETK99

ETK99

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Del B Vista said:
Video above and this are correct. Run counts. TikTok video linked in this post is shorter explanation.
Click to expand...
Correct for MLB maybe but that ball is still live and in play and it's not a dead ball appeal.
 
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BulldogBlitz

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patdog said:
If fielding team never throws him out at 3rd, or appeal that he left early for a “4th out,” he’s safe & scores as long as he touched home before 3rd out was recorded.
Click to expand...
The ball was a pop-up that was caught for an out? Doesn't that require the runner to tag?
 
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patdog

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BulldogBlitz said:
The ball was a pop-up that was caught for an out? Doesn't that require the runner to tag?
Click to expand...
Sure he has to tag. But the fielding team has to record the out by throwing him out at 3rd. If they don’t record the out, there’s no out.
 
Xenomorph

Xenomorph

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I had this exact thing happen once in a U12 tournament.

I'm behind the plate. Runners at 2nd and 3rd... 1 out.

I heard their 3rd base coach shout: "Two outs boys!.. Running on contact!" I immediately see runners look at each other and hear mumbling behind me.

Too late.. pitch is on the way.

Fly ball to center..... coach yelling RUN RUN...runners take off... CF catches it for 2nd out.. makes a lazy throw to second base for the 3rd out.

Runner from 3rd had already crossed the plate. I look at the scorer and point to the plate to record the run and glance around to see if we're really going to let this happen.

Other coach (dude whose kids were in the field) goes apeshit. Comes out yelling and screaming that I can't record the run because the 3rd out was made at 2nd base.

I eventually have to throw him out of the game cause he yelled one of the naughty words.

And all he had to do was appeal the runner leaving early and I would have called him out. But he acted like such an idiot I wasn't going to help him out by telling him the rules.
 
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NukeDogg

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HulksStache said:
Running on contact with 1 out?!?
Click to expand...
It's 10U travel ball.

And to clarify the whole "just have them appeal to 3rd base to get the 4th out and negate the run", the defense had already left the field and gone to the dugout, they can't all go back out to the field to appeal to third. If they'd have done it in the moment or immediately after recording the third out at 1st base, yeah sure that's what they should have done. But everyone of them, coaches included, thought the run wouldn't count because he didn't tag up, and that it wasn't ruled until after they were in the dugout that the run counts.
 
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NukeDogg

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Xenomorph said:
I had this exact thing happen once in a U12 tournament.

I'm behind the plate. Runners at 2nd and 3rd... 1 out.

I heard their 3rd base coach shout: "Two outs boys!.. Running on contact!" I immediately see runners look at each other and hear mumbling behind me.

Too late.. pitch is on the way.

Fly ball to center..... coach yelling RUN RUN...runners take off... CF catches it for 2nd out.. makes a lazy throw to second base for the 3rd out.

Runner from 3rd had already crossed the plate. I look at the scorer and point to the plate to record the run and glance around to see if we're really going to let this happen.

Other coach (dude whose kids were in the field) goes apeshit. Comes out yelling and screaming that I can't record the run because the 3rd out was made at 2nd base.

I eventually have to throw him out of the game cause he yelled one of the naughty words.

And all he had to do was appeal the runner leaving early and I would have called him out. But he acted like such an idiot I wasn't going to help him out by telling him the rules.
Click to expand...
But the appeal to 3rd has to happen before the defense all leaves the field. That's what happened here, they all thought "third out made, run doesn't count" and left the field. Now it's too late for an appeal.
 
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Xenomorph

Xenomorph

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NukeDogg said:
But the appeal to 3rd has to happen before the defense all leaves the field. That's what happened here, they all thought "third out made, run doesn't count" and left the field. Now it's too late for an appeal.
Click to expand...
If no appeal is made then the run counts (as was the case in my game) .

If the kids all came running off and the field coach/team immediately wanted to appeal then I would make the other team scurry off and allow the field team to hustle back out for a quick appeal and make the correct call to disallow the run.

Batters checking swings, runners missing bases and leaving early are all things an umpire will not automatically rule on. That's up to defensive teams to watch and appeal.
 
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PooPopsBaldHead

PooPopsBaldHead

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jethreauxdawg said:
Run doesn’t count. The third out was recorded on that play. And getting the runner going back to first is a force out. You can just step on the bag, you don’t have to tag the runner.
Click to expand...
It's not a force out. Throwing behind a runner who advanced without tagging up is always considered an appeal. If it happens while the ball is still in play, it's called a live ball appeal. After the play is over and before the next pitch, you can have a dead ball appeal.

So throwing a runner out at first on a caught line drive is technically the live ball appeal.


Tag-Ups. If a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a time play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal would count.

Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and the resulting appeal is an apparent fourth out.
 
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mstateglfr

mstateglfr

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Wild that the team needs to appeal the run. Why not just have the people officiating the game, the ups, officiate it and not count the run due to the runner not tagging up?
Odd that the burden is on one team to appeal, since the ups do so many other things without waiting for an appeal.

...though the catcher has to appeal to 1b on a checked swing even though the up could just make the call each time. Well that really only makes me thing the 1b ump should be signaling if the batter swung and not wait for an appeal. I mean, just oversee the rules of the game in their entirety.
 
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HomeBoyDawg

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mstateglfr said:
...though the catcher has to appeal to 1b on a checked swing even though the up could just make the call each time. Well that really only makes me thing the 1b ump should be signaling if the batter swung and not wait for an appeal. I mean, just oversee the rules of the game in their entirety.
Click to expand...
An interesting part of the checked swing appeal is that, by rule, the catcher doesn't appeal to the 1st base ump on right-handed batters or the 3rd base ump on left-handed batters. The catcher appeals to the home plate ump and it is the home plate ump's decision as to whether or not to appeal to the base ump. Base umps should ignore a catcher that points at them until the home plate ump points at them. I think in practice, though, umps allow the catcher to appeal directly to the base ump.
 
mstateglfr

mstateglfr

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HomeBoyDawg said:
An interesting part of the checked swing appeal is that, by rule, the catcher doesn't appeal to the 1st base ump on right-handed batters or the 3rd base ump on left-handed batters. The catcher appeals to the home plate ump and it is the home plate ump's decision as to whether or not to appeal to the base ump. Base umps should ignore a catcher that points at them until the home plate ump points at them. I think in practice, though, umps allow the catcher to appeal directly to the base ump.
Click to expand...
Cool. But then my example of a call a team needs to appeal to get, isnt applicable and then moves things closer to 'the umps should just utilize all the rules without requiring appeal first'.
 
jethreauxdawg

jethreauxdawg

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PooPopsBaldHead said:
It's not a force out. Throwing behind a runner who advanced without tagging up is always considered an appeal. If it happens while the ball is still in play, it's called a live ball appeal. After the play is over and before the next pitch, you can have a dead ball appeal.

So throwing a runner out at first on a caught line drive is technically the live ball appeal.


Tag-Ups. If a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a time play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal would count.

Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and the resulting appeal is an apparent fourth out.
Click to expand...
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