you guys need to stop letting Bears tell you Mullen cant recruit...

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OMlawdog

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And Cox and Banks leave for the NFL, who do you think would have inherited more NFL talent, Mullen or Mullen's replacement.

You are the only person I know of that has said that MSU has a stable full of O-lineman next year. MSU loses three seniors on the OL, and only have Day, Jackson, Clausell and Smith recovering froma severe knee injury as ever playing a snap.
 
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Coach34 said:
evaluating character- is part of recruiting<div>evaluating work ethic so that they will develop their talent- is part of recruiting</div><div>evaluating their maturity level and how much they will improve- is part of recruiting</div><div>determining how they will handle being away from home- is part of recruiting</div><div>
</div><div>recruiting is not just getting 25 signatures and counting up their ratings you ignorant, dick-sucking, crybaby ****. Go home, shave Momma's back again for her, and stay off the computer until you know what the ******* you are talking about</div><div>
</div>

What the hell areyou referring to? Pat Patterson? Clarence Jackson? Jerrell Powe? Markeith Summers? CJ? Tobias?Which playerdid yall evaluate so well and saw theywere a head case so youstopped recruiting them? Please tell me. You wanted all these guys. You evaluated them andwanted them at State. If they turn out/turned outselling dopethen youdidnt see that either. Give meonehighly rated player that we signed whohas character issues that you didnt want.Please.
 

Jacknut1

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The results speak for themselves: worst season ever for the Bears, first back-to-back bowls in 12 years for us, not to mention 4 Eggs in the last 5 years.

</p>
 
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MStateDawg said:
whereisomaha said:
No itsoutevaluating us.

To me, good recruiting is a conglomerate of 3 things:
1-Evaluating talent
2-Projecting physical growth & development (Many players are as good as seniors in HS as they'll ever be. They're at their ceiling and won't get any better)
3-Convincing the kid to come to your school


If you screw up on the first 2, the 3rd doesn't really matter.

Mullen offered almost every single player we signed. He wanted them. If we both want a kid, the team who got him out recruited. If that kid ends up selling crack that doesnt change the fact that both coaches wanted him and one out recruited the other.
 
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Irondawg said:
Just using last year, yeah OM outrecruited us for some guys - but we also had some key coaching loses and there were some unusual circumstances ( see CJ) that affected some. I'll give you Thompson and Morris as those didn't have much shady business hinted out and they just went to OM b/c they liked something better.

I'll never count SP and MC guys going to OM as being "outrecruited". But we did lose Hud who had made the real progress with him.

I know we tried on Golson, but honestly not sure how much true effort we put in late b/c I think everyone was shocked he didn't go MLB. (kind of like Alford this year)...but I'll give you that one as well.

Moncrief from Day 1 liked OM so I don't even think we ever had a shot there.

The CJ thing will live in infamy far beyond the Robert Elliott saga
This is 100% on themoney
 

esplanade91

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OMlawdog said:
I think its fair to say that Mitchell, Cox, Banks and Boyd are NFL bound. All four committed or signed with Croom.

So add those to: Sherrod, Love, White, Wright, McPhee, Dixon, and Chaney.

That is 11 NFL players that Mullen inherited. Not a ton, but still not bad. By the way the 2010 MSU defense is looking loaded.

I count 8 NFL players on that defense. That is tremendous. That doesn't count Whitley who I think is a NFL player if he recovers from a torn Achilles. He was a Croom commit too.

Look I think that Mullen is a good coach and he recruits to an offensivesystem that works. I also think that his redshirting plan is on the money, offensively I think y'all will be fine if your OL recruiting improves just a little bit. The only issue I see is whether you will be able to replace the defensive talent that Croom either signed or committed. To me defense comes down to athletes, and Croom's 2008 class that he had lined up when Mullen was hired was outstanding defensively. Just outstanding. Im not sure that Mullen has duplicated that type of recruiting on defense yet.

</p>
Whoa, Mitchell is worthy to be a starter but the guy doesn't have a shot at an NFL future. He was our weakest link in the secondary from game 1 to game 11, not 12 because Whitley was out. Cox was Bama bound pre-Mullen, and Banks was the first guy Mullen recruited at Mississippi State. Out of that group I'll give you Boyd, who is largely complimented by lining up next to Cox who is usually double teamed. Not taking away from him, that's just stating the facts.

White and McPhee are MULLEN'S RECRUITS.. what's wrong with you people? And you consider Whitley a Croom guy too????????? Who the 17 are you?

Dixon is good and was a good career back for State, but Mullen made him lose something like 30 pounds to play for him. He did, and once the season started Mullen put Dixon in a place, unlike Croom, to win.

Riddle me this: had Croom stayed and we gone 2-10 to 3-9 which we likely would have done in 2009 under Croom and Dixon stayed 250 lbs and played in whatever-you-call-that-offense-Woody-ran, KJ, Chaney, Sherrod, and Love not gotten into the best shape of their playing careers, do you HONESTLY believe any would be drafted or even made a final roster in the NFL? Hell no. We're talking about how great they are because of the situation that MULLEN put them in. Imagine what Pegues would be up to with one year of Mullen. Had Croom coached their last years, they'd be an afterthought no one ever brought up. We talk about them and bring them up in association with "bulldogs in the NFL" because of Mullen.

You can tell me that's my opinon, but I know that Chaney would have been cut by the Eagles after training camp, Dixon would have gotten a mere "workout", and KJ would have been drafted, if at all, in the 6th or 7th and wouldn't have been in the position to take Curry's spot. My evidence? Watch all the video interviews of Balis saying that KJ and Chaney were the heros in the workouts. You're just crazy if you think Sherrod would have been a top OT NFL prospect without Mullen.
 

esplanade91

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http://recruiting.scout.c...s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=3601775

Pernell McPhee. 3 official visits he took after Croom was fired. If that's not already an indicator that he was shopping, might I just mention that those 3 schools were Michigan, Georgia, and Florida. Croom might have gotten him to consider us in his top 4 choices, but Mullen got him to commit over 3 elite programs he was interested in. Argument is over. 2009 class was Mullen's.
 

Confrused

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We are as low right now as we have ever been as a football program. Surely you would agree, right? If so, and Mullen can recruit, why are the top guys in-state not breaking down the Mullenater's doors to commit? I mean, hell, he's "dominated recruiting the last 3 yrs" right? Surely these top talents are lining up to play for the guy. Ward, Evans, Liggins, Alford, Jefferson....ya'll ought to have a hell of a class, yet?

Building depth is not the same thing as building talented depth.
 

shsdawg

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is notand never has been stars on signing day. It's how well the TEAMperforms while the recruits who actually make it campus are there. That is the only one that matters.Lately, as far as we can judge at the moment, MSU has whipped UM.
 

Coach34

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Confrused said:
We are as low right now as we have ever been as a football program- not really...you have gone 0-8 in the SEC before... but you guys are struggling right now Surely you would agree, right? If so, and Mullen can recruit, why are the top guys in-state not breaking down the Mullenater's doors to commit? I mean, hell, he's "dominated recruiting the last 3 yrs" right? Surely these top talents are lining up to play for the guy. Ward, Evans, Liggins, Alford, Jefferson....ya'll ought to have a hell of a class, yet?- who says we wont have a good class? But when Our State has top talent- we will always have to fight off the poacher's from other states- that is just how it is. We have James committed, are very much in the mix for Ward and Evans, and havent recruited Liggins or Alford very much for various reasons...recruiting classes are always better the year after a bowl game- and this year will be no different

Building depth is not the same thing as building talented depth.- beats the **** out of no depth- and thats where we are coming from
 

OMlawdog

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McPhee committed to Croom in July of 2008

Chris White committed to Croom in July of 2008

Banks committed to Croom in April of 2008

Whitley committed to Croom in June of 2008

Josh Boyd committed to Croom in July of 2008

Fletcher Cox committed to Croom in May of 2008

Im not saying Mullen didn't dogreat things with them when he got on campus, but saying Croom didn't have a hand in the 2008 recruiting class is really stretching the truth wouldn't you say?
 

Arthur2478

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Oct 17, 2010
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whereisomaha said:
Mullen offered almost every single player we signed.

That is grossly inaccurate. Just looking at last year's class, we offered about 8 of your 28 signees: Bell, Brassell, Golson, CJ, Mayers, Moncrief, Morris, Wood
I may have missed somebody, but that's over 2/3rds of your signees that weren't offered by Mullen.

We can argue differences of recruiting philosophies all day long, but the bottom line is results. In Mullen's 3rd year he went 6-6 and UM went 2-10. Go back and look at the classes from each of those 3 years and the "experts" all had UM ranked higher.
 

OMlawdog

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Nutt tried to argue that crap this year, and its crap.

In year 4 you are blaming Croom for talent problems on the OL? In year 4?

Im guessing he gets the credit for the 2009 and 2010 defense then?

Any coach, I don't care if its Mullen or Nutt that hasn't addressed an entire position can't blame the previous coach in year 4 of their program.
 

MedDawg

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AshleySchaffer said:
I believe Dan and his staff recruit hard, its just the fact that he can't close on a recruit the way Ole Miss can (Tobias, CJ) or Auburn can (Jermaine Whitehead and now Channing Ward)

Won't, not can't.
 

57stratdawg

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Dec 1, 2004
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6 players this year? 6 players 3 years after he left?

And on the JWS stuff, I don't remember us being being that deep. What years and players are you specifically talking about? Even if we were - is that 1 or 2 years in the last 50? Hardly a standard we can hold Croom to.
 

missouridawg

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Oct 6, 2009
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Mullen definitely swung and missed on some JuCo's to fill in those gaps... Mullen deserves 100% blame for that... but it wasn't like he wasn't trying (Jason Peacock and the guyfrom Hargrave).

As I stated previously, it takes 3 years for o-lineman to get ready. Next year, the Archie Muniz, Causell, and Robinson class should start contributing.... the year after that, the Muniz/Clausell/Robinson/Day class should be a strength and Redmond's class should start contributing....

The stable is full... does that mean they're currently ready? Definitely not... but the horses are there, they just need to be groomed.

Croom didn't leave Mullen enough horses to compete and Mullen didn't fill in those gaps. That's why our line was atrocious this year.
</p>
 

OMlawdog

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The previous coach should get zero blame or credit for the failures/successes of your program. Im not sure anyone would really argue with that.

That is why Im saying any shortcomings at a position argued by any coach is just a BS excuse.</p>
 

MedDawg

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whereisomaha said:
You can use any excuse you want atwhy you didnt land Morris, Thompson, Golson, Moncrief, CJ, Tobias, Brassell, etc but they are at OM when you had them at the top of your board. Thats recruiting.


We play the name game, too. Arrington, Maiden, Morrow, PJ Jones, Matthew Wells, Kaleb Euells, Curtis Virges, and Robert Johnson are all players that OM wanted but Mullen signed just in the past two signing classes.
 

esplanade91

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OMlawdog said:
McPhee committed to Croom in July of 2008

Chris White committed to Croom in July of 2008

Banks committed to Croom in April of 2008

Whitley committed to Croom in June of 2008

Josh Boyd committed to Croom in July of 2008

Fletcher Cox committed to Croom in May of 2008

Im not saying Mullen didn't dogreat things with them when he got on campus, but saying Croom didn't have a hand in the 2008 recruiting class is really stretching the truth wouldn't you say?
Believing all 6 of those players would have made it to Mississippi State had Croom not been fired is stretching reality. Especially Cox and McPhee, who I pointed out took THREE visits to see Rich Rod, Mark Richt, and Urban Meyer before Mullen was hired. Furthermore, believing that all 6 if any of the 6 would be NFL worthy under Croom is stretching sanity. White and Banks had no other offers, Whitley had Ole Miss. Do you believe Whitley isn't a 100% different player after rehabbing his ACL injury with us and redshirting? You're giving Croom credit for recruiting stars when Banks was the 1A player of the year, something almost all major D1 schools overlook except Croom who dug low, Chris White who was in no way that impressive at OLB, it took Diaz moving him to MLB, and Whitley, someone Auburn and everyone else was salivating over until his injury.

I don't see how Croom did more than offer people he thought he could get and shoot for the stars with Cox and McPhee... who Mullen locked up, regardless if you say they committed to Croom or not. Both would have moved on to greener pastures.

What about Dak Prescott? What about James Maiden? Kaleb Eulls? Joe Morrow? Damien Robinson (doesn't matter how good he is, he was highly recruited)? James Carmon (had a lot of offers)? Dee Arrington? Jay Hughes? Dennis Thames? Robert Johnson? PJ Jones?

All those players had AT LEAST one other offter from an <span style="font-weight: bold;">"elite"</span> BCS school that Croom had no part in. Not considering players that were unrecruited that ended up at State by Croom because we were there only serious offer that ended up being good (KJ Wright, for example), based solely on recruiting players that we were in contention with schools that have better tradition than we do, better records than we've had, and have better facilities than we have... those are more players in 2 years than Croom ever got. Again, that's not counting players like Malcolm Johnson who had one offer that appear to be PREEEETTY good.

By your account, Croom was responsible for Relf and how well he did in 2010. "He was a Croom recruit."
 

missouridawg

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For offensive lines to be successful, you need players with 3 years under the belts. Ideally, your starting line and the 2nd string would consist of 8 or 9 redshirt juniors and seniors and you may have 1 or 2 guys who excel early and play as redshirt sophomores (and maybe freshman).

Coach Mullen was hired in 2009, meaning that his first full recruiting class will be redshirt Sophomores next year with very little experience. I expect our line to be better in 2012 than 2011, but not by much because of the inexperience. I hope I'm wrong on that.

In 2013and 2014, I fully expect our line to be a strength and if Milton, Robinson, or Griffin are still around, I expect one of them to have a HUGE year.

The problem we have this year (and will continue to have next year) is that Coach Croom did not leave Mullen with 8 or 9 redshirt juniors and seniors from the 2007 and 2008 classes. That's where we're lacking and why we're scatching around to find JuCo's. Hopefully Mullen gets his guys... but Juco recruiting is much tougher than expected because every big name coach is trying to find someone to fill in a gap or two.
 

missouridawg

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If Mullen is here in year 6 and says something about we have a talent problem, then yes... Mullen is to blame for not recruiting it.

Offensive line is one of those positions where experience and knowing a system is the biggest factor in succeeding (although strength and footwork are important too).

In 2012, Mullen will not have ONE player on his roster who has been in his program for 4 years total.
In 2013, Mullen will not have ONE player on his roster who has been in his program for 5 years total.
Those two years (2012-2013) are years in which Croom should've been recruiting in 2007 and 2008 for. Mullen was busy winning national championships-n-**** then.

This is the gap folks. It's not that hard to see. Filling it with a JuCo is necessary... but it doesn't fill in the experience gap inside Mullen's system.

You can bet your ***, when 2013 rolls around... our line is going to be a huge huge strenght, assumming attrition doesn't hit us.
 

Coach34

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MedDawg said:
whereisomaha said:
You can use any excuse you want atwhy you didnt land Morris, Thompson, Golson, Moncrief, CJ, Tobias, Brassell, etc but they are at OM when you had them at the top of your board. Thats recruiting.



We play the name game, too. Arrington, Maiden, Morrow, PJ Jones, Matthew Wells, Kaleb Euells, Curtis Virges, and Robert Johnson are all players that OM wanted but Mullen signed just in the past two signing classes
.
 

AshleySchaffer

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May 25, 2009
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Mullen needs to take recruiting tips from Coach34's best friend Stans.

As much as many of you on here hate Rick Stansbury, one thing the SOB can do is recruit big recruits. He may not sign them all but he has a good track record of signing 4 and 5 star recruits.
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
148,261
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He's only had to replace Derek Sherrod (in year 3) and Tobias Smith (in year 3).

If Greg Byrne told Dan Mullen in 2008 "you won't have to play one of your recruits on the OL for your first two years, but by year 3 they'll need to be on the two deep" you think Mullen would have brought up depth issues under Croom? Of course not.

Come on Coach, you're smarter than this.
 

paindonthurt_

All-Conference
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If Cox, Boyd, and Banks all come back and the rest of the group leads MSU to a 7 win or better season, then Mullen gets the credit for that, correct?
 

OMlawdog

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That is the point, in year 4 its your program warts and all.

If they win 10 games next year, its all on Mullen.

If they win 4 games nex year, its all on Mullen.

Just like Nutt's two win season this year was all on him.
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
148,261
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Did it take 3 or 4 years for Tobias Smith, Gabe Jackson, or Derek Sherrod 3 years to start at MSU? No..
Did it take 3 years for Cyrus K, Anthony Steen, and DJ Fluker to start at Bama? No..
Auburn has 7 freshmen and sophomores on their 2 OL 2 deep and won more games than we did.
South Carolina started two freshmen this year (Mathius & Cann), and have 6 fresh & soph on their 2 deep.
Tennessee's entire 2 deep are freshmen and soph. If Bray doesn't get hurt, they're probably going to a better bowl game than we are this year.
Florida started a RS F at OT, Soph at OG, and a Soph at C.

Underclassmen play and start all over the SEC.
 

Todd4State

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And by legit I mean not puffed up by Yancy- then yeah an underclassman can start on the o-line in the SEC. But that's pretty rare. Most of those guys that you mentioned like Fluker are legit four-five star guys, and Steen had to be redshirted and he has been in Bama's program for three years. The truth is, we are not going to get a whole lot of legit four or five star guys and are going to have to develop our o-line talent. That's just the fact of the matter.

Sherrod didn't start for us as a true freshman and people talk all the time about how horrible he looked as a sophomore in the Egg Bowl.

And maybe Bray wouldn't have gotten hurt if he was playing behind a more experienced line. Who knows?

Croom deserves every bit of blame for not leaving us with more o-line talent. He couldn't manage our roster and it's taken time to fill in those gaps. Remember Dan's first year when we were starting a walk-on QB and playing a lot of freshmen ourselves? And Dan deserves some blame for not identifying a need for JUCO o-line talent- and he has taken some criticism for that even from Coach34 on here, so no one is totally blaming Croom for our problems. But he shouldn't get a total pass here either. At least Dan is taking steps to fix our o-line. I'll give him that.
 

Coach34

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57StratDawg said:
Did it take 3 or 4 years for Tobias Smith, Gabe Jackson, or Derek Sherrod 3 years to start at MSU? No.- and they were thrown around like rag dolls early on- Sherrod was looked pitiful as a Soph in a certain 45-0 loss. .
Did it take 3 years for Cyrus K, Anthony Steen, and DJ Fluker to start at Bama? We'll never get those types to Starkville
Auburn has 7 freshmen and sophomores on their 2 OL 2 deep and won more games than we did.- and they are 10th in offense and below us in almost every offensive category with all those 4* and 5* talented players
South Carolina started two freshmen this year (Mathius & Cann), and have 6 fresh & soph on their 2 deep.- they also are 3rd in the SEC in total defense and and finished just ahead of us in total offense- 5th, we were 6th
Tennessee's entire 2 deep are freshmen and soph. If Bray doesn't get hurt, they're probably going to a better bowl game than we are this year- thats what happens when you start young guys- QB's get hurt...ask Relf and Russell -who were both hurt this season. .
Florida started a RS F at OT, Soph at OG, and a Soph at C.- and they have their worst record since the 1980's - they also finished behind us in total offense

Underclassmen play and start all over the SEC. - not much on the good teams unless they are upper 4 or 5* players- and just because they play- doesnt mean they play well.
 

Johnson85

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Nov 22, 2009
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We were short on O-line because the lazy fat *** walrus took a couple of years off from recruiting o-linemen. Mullen failed to get a JUCO OL or 5* HS OL to fill the gap. It's disappointing that Mullen didn't do a better job of fixing that hole, but if three of the redshirt So OL are serviceable next year, that will tell me Mullen has done a decent job on recruiting OL. Thing that sucks is that even if 3 RS So OL turn out to be serviceable, we'll still be mediocre and paper thin at OL unless a JUCO turns out to be good and/or Tobias Smith comes back and is healthy.
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
148,261
23,967
113
"We have better offensive numbers than Auburn" - Because of the OOC opponents we played. Look at the SEC Only stats (where we played the same teams essentially) where <span style="font-weight: bold;">Auburn</span> <span style="font-weight: bold;">scored more points, rushed for more yards, averaged more total yards per game, and had more total time of possession </span>than we did. I bet you don't have much to say back to that.

"Ask Russell and Relf what it's like starting behing a young OL" - We started 3 Srs, a Jr, and rs Soph against Memphis. In the Egg Bowl we had 3 Srs, a Rs Soph, and Rs Fresh. That's not a young OL. Save that apology till next year.

Kids don't have to be 4 and 5 star to contribute early. Again, Tobias Smith, Gabe Jackson, Dillion Day, all played early and played well for us. Anthony Steen started games last year for Bama.
 

Coach34

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Bama;s OL is upperclassmen and 5 star talent<div>
</div><div>I'm sorry, but all 12 games count. What were the averages on games played at 11am? Averages against teams beginning with an L?</div><div>
</div><div>I didnt say we had a young line- but Relf and Russell got hurt vs LSU- in a game in which we were missing 2 of the 5 guys we started the season with on the OL. Sorry you missed the point aGAIN</div><div>
</div><div>And I see you left off Tenn, Fla, and others....</div><div>
</div><div>Bottom line is that unless you have a top talent- you will struggle playing OL guys before their 3rd year in college. EVERYBODY understands that. Hopefully one day you will too</div>
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
148,261
23,967
113
No one complained about Tobias Smith and Gabe Jackson last year in their 2nd year. Anthony Steen wasn't a 5 star. South Carolina's freshmen were 3 star guys. Dillion Day wasn't a 5 star. It's the difference between finding guys that can contribute early and guys that can't. Dillion Day can play as a redshirt freshman, but our former 5 star Damion Robinson can't? How do you explain that if it takes "Only 5 star guys we can't ever get".

I guess South Caronlina's freshmen didn't play well though since they only finished #12?

"I'm sorry but all games count." Is that true about Rick Stansbury's 20 win seasons too? Is it different in basketball and football or are you just picking and choosing what helps your argument at the time?

Florida finished ahead of us in all the SEC only stats too. More yards, more points, more rush yards, less sacks, etc. There's a pretty logical reason for that though, and it's the same reason why we finished ahead of Auburn in total stats.
 
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