Anybody been to the Ark Park yet?

[cat_in_the_hat]

Cat, you can stick with the bloggers. (which mostly are uninformative Christian think tanks-which is ironic to Genesis 3:3 and 3:6-but whatever). And I'll stick with the National Institute of Health (NIH).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25419043


Going by that study. Amazing how Science works, Eve's depression from shame can be proven by a National Institute of Health study from 2008. That's if Eve even existed, which she didn't.

It's hilarious that you criticize the authors in the links I posted and then link a study by the very same author from my second link. Brilliant. Tangney clearly thinks guilt and shame are two completely separate emotions, and not one in the same, as you suggest. Here is quote from her.

“Guilt is a useful emotion, It pushes people to repair the harm they did,” says June P. Tangney, lead author of the study and a professor of psychology at George Mason University, in Fairfax, Va. “But feelings of shame about oneself seem to motivate people more to want to hide, escape, deny or a lot of times to blame other people.”

Clearly she believes they are not the same emotion. In fact, if you Google guilt and shame there are page after page of your colleagues who say they are two separate, distinct, emotions.

 

[allabouttheUK]

I always thought guilt and shame were merely a persons emotional response to a negative action caused by themselves. Sort of like fight or flight, you are either riddled with guilt or shame, no?

 

[UKserialkiller]

It's hilarious that you criticize the authors in the links I posted and then link a study by the very same author from my second link. Brilliant. Tangney clearly thinks guilt and shame are two completely separate emotions, and not one in the same, as you suggest. Here is quote from her.

“Guilt is a useful emotion, It pushes people to repair the harm they did,” says June P. Tangney, lead author of the study and a professor of psychology at George Mason University, in Fairfax, Va. “But feelings of shame about oneself seem to motivate people more to want to hide, escape, deny or a lot of times to blame other people.”

Clearly she believes they are not the same emotion. In fact, if you Google guilt and shame there are page after page of your colleagues who say they are two separate, distinct, emotions.

That author you just quoted "yeah but"ed herself. She contradicted herself. And I disagree with her 100%. It's not guilt that pushes someone to repair, it's their insight towards their own problem that pushes someone to repair. because once you got insight to your problem, you now have accountability to fix it or don't fix it. You can no longer use an excuse.

Ok, let me explain like this. The whole premise is that guilt is a learned behavior. There is nothing natural about it. You can argue that all day long and you're wrong.

Now, when there is a submissive, abused victim, there is a re-conditioning of the guilt of being away from that relationship that needs to be conditioned towards a new positive relationship to create a feeling of guilt when they think about going back to that abusive relationship.

Still conditioned. Still unnatural.

 

[UKserialkiller]

I always thought guilt and shame were merely a persons emotional response to a negative action caused by themselves. Sort of like fight or flight, you are either riddled with guilt or shame, no?

You're correct. And also people feel guilty for others actions too. Happens all the time.

 

[MacCard]

Disappointing thread. Saw 7 pages and was hoping from some real crazy religious back-and-forth. We're getting the crazy back-and-forth, but it's apparently about the Webster's dictionary definition of shame or something? Not nearly as fun.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

That author you just quoted "yeah but"ed herself. She contradicted herself. And I disagree with her 100%. It's not guilt that pushes someone to repair, it's their insight towards their own problem that pushes someone to repair. because once you got insight to your problem, you now have accountability to fix it or don't fix it. You can no longer use an excuse.

Ok, let me explain like this. The whole premise is that guilt is a learned behavior. There is nothing natural about it. You can argue that all day long and you're wrong.

Now, when there is a submissive, abused victim, there is a re-conditioning of the guilt of being away from that relationship that needs to be conditioned towards a new positive relationship to create a feeling of guilt when they think about going back to that abusive relationship.

Still conditioned. Still unnatural.

So now you arguing against one of the authors of the research you sited, lol. You keep arguing about learned versus natural, and not whether guilt and shame are the same emotion, which was the original point. You said they are the same. I said they are not and that you can feel guilt without feeling shame. You are wrong. The research you site indicates that the researchers believe they are two distinct emotions and can be felt independently from each other. They believe guilt can have a positive influence on people, while shame generally has a negative influence on people. For that to be true, they must be two different emotions.

The research you sited also says that the correlation between the child's guilt level and a parents guilt level aren't very correlated. They surmise that it indicates that guilt is not a learned behavior. I really don't care about that, since it has not relevance to my argument. But I wanted to point out that you act like what you believe is mainstream and fact, when in reality, many in your field disagree with you.

 

[UKserialkiller]

So now you arguing against one of the authors of the research you sited, lol. You keep arguing about learned versus natural, and not whether guilt and shame are the same emotion, which was the original point. You said they are the same. I said they are not and that you can feel guilt without feeling shame. You are wrong. The research you site indicates that the researchers believe they are two distinct emotions and can be felt independently from each other. They believe guilt can have a positive influence on people, while shame generally has a negative influence on people. For that to be true, they must be two different emotions.

The research you sited also says that the correlation between the child's guilt level and a parents guilt level aren't very correlated. They surmise that it indicates that guilt is not a learned behavior. I really don't care about that, since it has not relevance to my argument. But I wanted to point out that you act like what you believe is mainstream and fact, when in reality, many in your field disagree with you.

I linked the NIH's for the sole purpose of the conclusion "Results suggest that shame and CSB converge into a common construct, significantly related to depressive symptoms and cognitions.

converge.

Same emotion. Because there is a belief and sense of doing wrong , even if they are pushing themselves towards a positive outcome. Positive guilt is a paradox.

 

[UKserialkiller]

Cat in the Hat. Guilt and shame have two different meanings. Yes. You are correct about that. Otherwise it would be just one meaning. However, the results of those two bring spring forth the same emotion. That feeling of a negative emotion. Trying to work with someone's perception to condition it toward's a new positive perceptiom still has its struggles as they feel they are being in the wrong/ashamed for appreciating the new positive behavior.

I'm done with this. But feel free to keep adding.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Never knew that guilt and shame were so hard to understand.

 

[Get Buckets]

Cat and Willy can one of you all provide a listing of where all the major mental research institutes side on this issue?

I can't opine which side I'm on until then. Thanks in advance.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

I linked the NIH's for the sole purpose of the conclusion "Results suggest that shame and CSB converge into a common construct, significantly related to depressive symptoms and cognitions.

converge.

Same emotion. Because there is a belief and sense of doing wrong , even if they are pushing themselves towards a positive outcome. Positive guilt is a paradox.

CSB is shame, not guilt. Guilt did not converge with CSB, and only in certain situations did it correlate highly with BSB. Saying that CSB and shame converge doesn't mean that shame and guilt are the same emotion.

 

[RonEJones]

Because in Genesis 3:3 God specifically told them, and I am quoting God, "Don't eat the fruit".

He said it. He instructed them. He taught them.

That understanding you are talking about is Genesis 3:6.

One thing I never understood about their god is why he is always testing people to see if they are worthy? He supposedly created them and know what's going to happen.

Puts a damn fruit tree in front of Adam/Eve and not only tells them they can't eat the fruit, but he lets a damn snake run interference. Why tempt them? As I stated previously, he supposedly made them and he knows they are going to fail. Is it some sadistic game?

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

Cat and Willy can one of you all provide a listing of where all the major mental research institutes side on this issue?

I can't opine which side I'm on until then. Thanks in advance.

I think that would certainly be consistent with how similar threads are decided. I have no clue where they would come down, so i will leave that to Willy. In fact, I care very little about most of what Willy is arguing, other than his contention that there is no difference between guilt and shame. Truthfully, I don't really care much about that either. I've just been bored the last couple of days.

 

[UKserialkiller]

CSB is shame, not guilt. Guilt did not converge with CSB, and only in certain situations did it correlate highly with BSB. Saying that CSB and shame converge doesn't mean that shame and guilt are the same emotion.

The result. The affect. That's why I agreed with you on the being two different definitions. But the result is the same mutual feeling.

You can't have guilt absent shame.

Per Marriams.

Guilt- make (someone) feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something.
Shame- a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong

You keep arguing semantics.

best of luck finding a human who has had guilt without shame. Let me know when you find that person.

 

[UKserialkiller]

I think that would certainly be consistent with how similar threads are decided. I have no clue where they would come down, so i will leave that to Willy. In fact, I care very little about most of what Willy is arguing, other than his contention that there is no difference between guilt and shame. Truthfully, I don't really care much about that either. I've just been bored the last couple of days.

At least you admit you were trying to be difficult. But hey, that's why nothing you have said is anywhere close to being accurate.

 

[.S&C.]

One thing I never understood about their god is why he is always testing people to see if they are worthy? He supposedly created them and know what's going to happen.

Puts a damn fruit tree in front of Adam/Eve and not only tells them they can't eat the fruit, but he lets a damn snake run interference. Why tempt them? As I stated previously, he supposedly made them and he knows they are going to fail. Is it some sadistic game?

Again, you're butchering the meaning and the word. Stop trying understand something you're not going to allow yourself to understand in the first place. You're wasting your time. You look to the bible to find contradictions only, not to understand the real meaning.\

Just saying.......why misinterpret and continue to ask questions when there is no answer you'll accept minus "everything came from 0".

And of course, like I always say, nothing like a good ole atheist claiming the logical side while holding the most illogical opinion in history.

 

[UKserialkiller]

<--- will not argue emotions or psychoanalytics with Willy. Ever.

I'm feeling guilty from being ashamed that i even went down this road. hahaha

 

[.S&C.]

 

[.S&C.]

I mean it kinda does make sense if ya think about it. It's like a ghost fart. You may not even have the urge to fart but ya move a certain way and sure enough a fart squeezes out. Sometimes it makes noise, sometimes it doesn't. But you feel it slide out your ***. It might stink just to let ya know you're not mistaken. But you're left thinking "Where the hell did that come from?" It was just there. If something created it, it was the 9 cheese sticks you had at lunch. In a sense, cheese sticks are God.

[laughing]

 

[UKserialkiller]

[cheers]

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

The result. The affect. That's why I agreed with you on the being two different definitions. But the result is the same mutual feeling.

You can't have guilt absent shame.

Per Marriams.

Guilt- make (someone) feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something.
Shame- a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong

You keep arguing semantics.

best of luck finding a human who has had guilt without shame. Let me know when you find that person.

It''s not worth the continued effort to debate this, so this is probably my last post on the subject. The very researcher that you provided a link to, makes a distinction between the two emotions as separate, distinct, emotions. If you disagree with her, fine. I don't really care, but it does not make you correct and her incorrect. She has researched this subject for years. Finally, what about a narcissist or a psychopath? Seems they could definitely feel shame without feeling guilt, which would mean the two emotions are not the same.

 

[UKserialkiller]

It''s not worth the continued effort to debate this, so this is probably my last post on the subject. The very researcher that you provided a link to, makes a distinction between the two emotions as separate, distinct, emotions. If you disagree with her, fine. I don't really care, but it does not make you correct and her incorrect. She has researched this subject for years. Finally, what about a narcissist or a psychopath? Seems they could definitely feel shame without feeling guilt, which would mean the two emotions are not the same.

Agreed. I'll leave it at that.

New research as shown that narcissists and psychopaths can choose to turn on their emotions. Which means they still were taught. whether or not they choose to go against the feelings of guilt/shame is a whole other matter.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Again, you're butchering the meaning and the word. Stop trying understand something you're not going to allow yourself to understand in the first place. You're wasting your time. You look to the bible to find contradictions only, not to understand the real meaning.\

Just saying.......why misinterpret and continue to ask questions when there is no answer you'll accept minus "everything came from 0".

And of course, like I always say, nothing like a good ole atheist claiming the logical side while holding the most illogical opinion in history.

You understand cosmology, theoretical physics, quantum mechanics, etc? Damn. Much respect. I wasn't expecting that from a pocket knife toting high school football coach. Never judge a book by the cover.

 

[bluelifer]

I think the Ark Park is pretty brilliant, honestly. If the last 2,000 or so years have taught us anything, it's that the Christian demographic is a pretty loyal consumer base.

I'm surprised there's not an Ark Park in every major city.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

One thing I never understood about their god is why he is always testing people to see if they are worthy? He supposedly created them and know what's going to happen.

Puts a damn fruit tree in front of Adam/Eve and not only tells them they can't eat the fruit, but he lets a damn snake run interference. Why tempt them? As I stated previously, he supposedly made them and he knows they are going to fail. Is it some sadistic game?

Yes. And I love it.

 

[.S&C.]

You understand cosmology, theoretical physics, quantum mechanics, etc? Damn. Much respect. I wasn't expecting that from a pocket knife toting high school football coach. Never judge a book by the cover.

Went to Yale A&M if you must know.

 

[.S&C.]

Agreed. I'll leave it at that.

New research as shown that narcissists and psychopaths can choose to turn on their emotions. Which means they still were taught. whether or not they choose to go against the feelings of guilt/shame is a whole other matter.

i believe Jeffery Dahmer had fantasies that his dick was cut off.

That's some hella nature projection going on there.

 

[UKserialkiller]

i believe Jeffery Dahmer had fantasies that his dick was cut off.

That's some hella nature projection going on there.

He was sexually abused as a child. He did not come out of the womb a psychopath.

 

[.S&C.]

He was sexually abused as a child. He did not come out of the womb a psychopath.

Gotta go. Muslim sympathizer cites white christian terrorists on rafters.

Never let an opportunity go to waste.

 

[IdaCat]

Why? Because we have different views you think I don't value the truth?

If you valued truth, you'd utilize and trust the powerful and effective tools used to find it: Skepticism, logic, reason, and objective critical examination of the evidence. You probably do that for everything except your religious faith.

Faith has no basis in truth as the word is defined. Theists have hijacked and twisted the word so they can feel good about believing ********. Believers DGAF about truth, just their beliefs. Find another word. This one is taken.

Truth:
1. the true or actual state of a matter.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.

 

[allabouttheUK]

If you valued truth, you'd utilize and trust the powerful and effective tools used to find it: Skepticism, logic, reason, and objective critical examination of the evidence. You probably do that for everything except your religious faith.

Faith has no basis in truth as the word is defined. Theists have hijacked and twisted the word so they can feel good about believing ********. Believers DGAF about truth, just their beliefs. Find another word. This one is taken.

Truth:
1. the true or actual state of a matter.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.

That's deep, bro.

Hey Willy, pass me a bowl.

 

[UKGrad93]

apparently Tayshaun Prince was der wif his fam.

It's worth buying a season pass and hanging out there a lot just to see which former Cats come through.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

If you valued truth, you'd utilize and trust the powerful and effective tools used to find it: Skepticism, logic, reason, and objective critical examination of the evidence. You probably do that for everything except your religious faith.

Faith has no basis in truth as the word is defined. Theists have hijacked and twisted the word so they can feel good about believing ********. Believers DGAF about truth, just their beliefs. Find another word. This one is taken.

Truth:
1. the true or actual state of a matter.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.

I have some truth for you. My mother was diagnosed with cancer two months ago. We took her to the emergency room for a kidney stone and they found it then. She was sent and had full body scans done. She had five spots on her lungs. Three spots on her brain and one on her liver. She went for another last week at the same place. Wednesday we went to the doctor for the results. He took us in his office and showed us both scans side by side. The spots on her lungs were gone. The spots in her head were gone and the spot on her liver.
His words exactly were " I don't know what happened. This is a miracle" I know you won't believe it or will try to deny it. This is what he does everyday. He's an Oncologist. No chemo. No radiation. Prayer and faith.
You can keep your truth. I will keep mine. Those spots were not done away with by treatment.
I don't care if you believe me or if you mock me. Faith in Jesus Christ is stronger than anything you can come up with. You can't stop it. You can't defeat it. You won't eliminate it and you won't change me or millions of others. All you have is hate. Hate of Christians. Hate of those that have faith in something you think is silly and a fairy tale. Others on here make comments and it's mostly done in a way light hearted way.
You and a couple others take it to the extreme. You hate Christians. You hate that they get to have a voice and have the freedom to teach their beliefs. Thankfully, nothing you say or do matters regarding Christianity.
There are those who can be civil and polite when it comes to this topic. You are not one of those and I am done with holding back. You need prayer and need it badly. Wherever this hate comes from, it can go away and the only way it can is through Jesus Christ. I will pray for you. I will do that even though don't want it or believe it because the Love of God is stronger than anything else.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

I don't care if you believe me or if you mock me.

[laughing]

I'm sure most people would take prayer/faith instead of chemo. It's that whole "no atheists in foxholes" thing, ya know.

 

[Ahnan E. Muss]

.

What type of scan(s) are you talking about here? CT scans? MRIs? PET scans?

Were biopsies taken after the scan results were seen?

What type of cancer was it?

 

[Bill Derington]

Everyone in this thread uses faith, reason, and logic everyday.
Why people get into pissing matches about this on a monthly basis is silly, and that includes me.

If we used simply logic, reason and absolute truth only nothing would ever get done, not to mention we'd be miserable.

And all faith is, is a mixture of life based experiences that lead you to a choice or conclusion.

 

[Tinker Dan]

I do not believe there will ever be definitive proof either way, i think that by definition that makes me an agnostic. But I lean 99% towards atheism.

I believe humans need and crave faith to help them through the hurt and mysteries of life. For those that at true believers I can understand and respect that. I just think they are wrong. There are hard times I wished i believed, but that would make me a hypocrite.

I also believe that if there is a God, he will know the ones that believe, just in case.....

 

[IdaCat]

I have some truth for you. My mother was diagnosed with cancer two months ago. We took her to the emergency room for a kidney stone and they found it then. She was sent and had full body scans done. She had five spots on her lungs. Three spots on her brain and one on her liver. She went for another last week at the same place. Wednesday we went to the doctor for the results. He took us in his office and showed us both scans side by side. The spots on her lungs were gone. The spots in her head were gone and the spot on her liver.
His words exactly were " I don't know what happened. This is a miracle" I know you won't believe it or will try to deny it. This is what he does everyday. He's an Oncologist. No chemo. No radiation. Prayer and faith.
You can keep your truth. I will keep mine. Those spots were not done away with by treatment.
I don't care if you believe me or if you mock me. Faith in Jesus Christ is stronger than anything you can come up with. You can't stop it. You can't defeat it. You won't eliminate it and you won't change me or millions of others. All you have is hate. Hate of Christians. Hate of those that have faith in something you think is silly and a fairy tale. Others on here make comments and it's mostly done in a way light hearted way.
You and a couple others take it to the extreme. You hate Christians. You hate that they get to have a voice and have the freedom to teach their beliefs. Thankfully, nothing you say or do matters regarding Christianity.
There are those who can be civil and polite when it comes to this topic. You are not one of those and I am done with holding back. You need prayer and need it badly. Wherever this hate comes from, it can go away and the only way it can is through Jesus Christ. I will pray for you. I will do that even though don't want it or believe it because the Love of God is stronger than anything else.

How was she diagnosed? Was there a biopsy? Spots on a scan can be a lot of things and is not automatically Cancer.

My mom was diagnosed 3 months ago via a biopsy of the tumor tissue. She had A PET scan and several MRIs. They showed that it appeared to be small, localized and operable. She had surgery 3 days ago and the surgeon aborted the operation after finding that it was much bigger than the scans indicated and had spread.

My mom is a devout Christian, as is her entire side of the family. They have been praying fervently. Docs give her a few short months of filled with agonizing pain.

 

[Chuckinden]

I have some truth for you. My mother was diagnosed with cancer two months ago. We took her to the emergency room for a kidney stone and they found it then. She was sent and had full body scans done. She had five spots on her lungs. Three spots on her brain and one on her liver. She went for another last week at the same place. Wednesday we went to the doctor for the results. He took us in his office and showed us both scans side by side. The spots on her lungs were gone. The spots in her head were gone and the spot on her liver.
His words exactly were " I don't know what happened. This is a miracle" I know you won't believe it or will try to deny it. This is what he does everyday. He's an Oncologist. No chemo. No radiation. Prayer and faith.
You can keep your truth. I will keep mine. Those spots were not done away with by treatment.
I don't care if you believe me or if you mock me. Faith in Jesus Christ is stronger than anything you can come up with. You can't stop it. You can't defeat it. You won't eliminate it and you won't change me or millions of others. All you have is hate. Hate of Christians. Hate of those that have faith in something you think is silly and a fairy tale. Others on here make comments and it's mostly done in a way light hearted way.
You and a couple others take it to the extreme. You hate Christians. You hate that they get to have a voice and have the freedom to teach their beliefs. Thankfully, nothing you say or do matters regarding Christianity.
There are those who can be civil and polite when it comes to this topic. You are not one of those and I am done with holding back. You need prayer and need it badly. Wherever this hate comes from, it can go away and the only way it can is through Jesus Christ. I will pray for you. I will do that even though don't want it or believe it because the Love of God is stronger than anything else.

I'm happy for your Mother, but for every story like that, there are thousands that "prayer and faith" did nothing to alleviate the problem.

One that stands out to me was a lifelong friend of mine's young daughter was diagnosed with cancer. There was nothing to be done except chemo and radiation. Someone advised them to take her to "Benny Hinn". The mother was desperate and was willing to try anything. Sure enough, somehow they got her on stage and Benny "healed" her. They went back to the doctor and he (allegedly) said her cancer was gone. They were naturally ecstatic and was relieved that is was over. Six months later, the daughter was dead.

I'm not against prayer or religion, but I am a realist. I don't have the "faith" that some do because to me it's blind faith and it's really hard for me to grasp. Who knows what is true and what isn't.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

What type of scan(s) are you talking about here? CT scans? MRIs? PET scans?

Were biopsies taken after the scan results were seen?

What type of cancer was it?

Yes on the biopsy. Yes to all those scans. Breast cancer.