Beginning of Universal Basic Income?

Catsfan29

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The Bloomberg example has everything to do with what is being discussed here.

I'm not sure if you are just trolling, but the people who are feeding you this nonsense on the internet or youtube videos or whatever else are taking advantage of your naivete... the overly simplistic arguments that leads you to believe you are making a point of any substance whatsoever, one that's simply too obvious for others to understand is a complete waste of your/our time.

The economists/professionals can't figure it out either because it can't work; the communist dream will never die though with some of them and the useful idiots that they can indoctrinate along the way to be their footsoldiers all suffer from their own form of greed, an anger at the nature of wealth disparity in a competitive society.

You will never be able to better the lot of the common man by taking from the productive to give to the unproductive. If you want to better the life of the common man, you create an environment conducive to his success, but any environment where success is an achievement/possibility is going to produce disparate outcome. You simply can't knock Bezos or Zuckerberg or whomever back down to your level, without bring down Ron Mehico there or Joey Rupption or any/all above average Joe too, in a manner that doesn't make life worse for everyone else. None of these failed ideas you read about on the internet or presented to you by Bernie or Warren are new; you don't really have an argument much less the moral high ground argument you think you achieve with the lame arguments you might present about everyone being free to follow their passions or someone rich pays a lower effective percentage than someone not.

Anyway, I'll leave it here, I've been getting in to exceedingly ignorant conversations here lately on the CatPaw with posters who think they are much smarter than they actually are, maybe spend a little time reading your finance textbooks more carefully and you'll be able to figure out your 2k per person pipe dream is indeed unattainable.

I'm sorry man but your posts always scream projection. There's no reason for me to be anger at the Zuckerberg's or Bezo's of the world. It's the American Dream to do what they were able to accomplish and to be angry at that is not American.

Raising taxes on the wealthy does not equate to being angry at the wealthy.

Also, this thread was about UBI and all I did was point out how having UBI would benefit the lives of the average person. You need to sit back and relax and stop making assumptions about people.
 
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BlueVelvetFog

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Apr 12, 2016
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Thanks for using the richest person in the world and his company that provides jobs to hundreds of thousands of Americans as an example [eyeroll]

What people are talking about is taxing higher income people to pay for lower income people, how the hell is that not greed from the poor? You can argue it’s more greed. The “rich” guy just wants to keep more of his and the poor wants to take away from the rich without earning it. The rich aren’t advocating taking from the poor. It’s like if two people that make the same amount of money are bartering over an item then they’re both just being good with their money. But if a guy that makes 100k is bartering with a guy that makes 25k all of a sudden the guy making 100k is a greedy and evil.

I just don’t understand the attitude that because someone is successful then they are somehow lower morally. At the end of the day everyone is looking out for their best interests, even the poor. Everyone is “greedy”.

Not EVERYONE is greedy. Many possess the ability to work hard and live in contentment with their circumstances. Not “complacency”—but contentment.

In Besos case, Just because you can—doesn’t mean you SHOULD. Business doesn’t run amorally all week and then sit in the pew on Sunday with a clear conscience. Bad optics backfire.
 
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dgtatu01

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How much can we borrow and how much can we print before it ($) no longer has worth? Even treasuries/collateral have limits.
At least $20 some trillion and the dollar hasn't lost hardly any value relative to the rest of the worlds currencies. I also think that depends on the size of the economy. Remember the bigger the economy gets the less any single $ means and a bigger economy means more tax $'s as well. These things feed each other and make the past debts less and less meaningul in the future as time goes by.
 

warrior-cat

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Oct 22, 2004
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At least $20 some trillion and the dollar hasn't lost hardly any value relative to the rest of the worlds currencies. I also think that depends on the size of the economy. Remember the bigger the economy gets the less any single $ means and a bigger economy means more tax $'s as well. These things feed each other and make the past debts less and less meaningul in the future as time goes by.
True but, there is always a limit. We have had crashes before, the next will probably be a big one. I just can't see raising the debt as fast as we have been in recent years without eventually it getting bigger than the economy can handle.
 

dgtatu01

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its pretty simple for me, bring more jobs back to the US and less reliance overseas. According to an article I read, it would be a $50 difference on a pair of shoes, not a $250 difference. However, that will probably be the narrative that Nike, Adidas and others will paint. It’s much easier to just send it overseas to cheap and unregulated economies rather than being innovative. In all likelihood though, when this is over, nothing will change with China. They will continue to lie, cheat and steal while screwing over America.
I have bought 2 pairs of American made shoes over the last 10 years. One was a $300 pair of Chippewa Boots and the other was a $450 pair of Allen Edmonds dress shoes. I don't know about the boots, but I know Cole Haan shoes used to be made domestically and were similarly priced to Allen Edmonds. Nike bought them and moved production overseas and they still make a heck of a dress shoe, but they can be had for $100-$150 now. Sneakers haven't been made in the US since Chuck Taylors were the only sneakers available.

Instead of putting Americans to work making things that Chinese folks can make for 1/5 of the price why don't we put Americans to work doing things Chinese people can't do for us like improving our roadways, updating our dams, making our internet better and faster, and providing better healthcare to our citizens. I would rather have cheap shoes and those things than be forced to buy overpriced shoes and have no chance of getting those things, but maybe that's just me.
 

dgtatu01

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Yes, they will take more.

And I want nothing to do with socialized healthcare, my wife is from Canada and their healthcare sucks for anything more intense than what you’d need a GP for. I don’t want to pay more to have the healthcare quality of poor person when I’ve worked to not be poor.

This year, for instance, we would’ve paid an extra $28k (USD) in taxes for Canadian healthcare that’s worse than what we have now. I’d rather keep that $28k+ year over year.
There will be extra ehalthcare that anyone with the means to do so can purchase. That is available everywhere.
 

dgtatu01

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True but, there is always a limit. We have had crashes before, the next will probably be a big one. I just can't see raising the debt as fast as we have been in recent years without eventually it getting bigger than the economy can handle.
They're all big ones. Obviosuly it doesn't take the financial markets to have a big one as this wicked little virus has shown. We might as well have the nice things while we're alive IMO. No reason to live meagerly when we don't have to. We are citizens of the United States, we decide what a $ is worth.
 

joeyrupption

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Jun 5, 2007
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There will be extra ehalthcare that anyone with the means to do so can purchase. That is available everywhere.
Yeah, after we pay that extra $28k, I get to pay more to get the healthcare I’d actually want. So how much more does the healthcare cost at that point $40k/yr?

And, that’s not true. 3 years ago, I got my knees checked out because they are pretty bad. The initial diagnosis was to get one knee fixed, but I said I wanted to get both check out, so they let me get a double MRI on both knees - because I asked for itS I got the MRI’s done in 8 days.

In Ontario, the wait time was 118 days for one MRI. And I doubt they would’ve let me just call them up and get one just because I wanted it - not from a debilitating injury.
 
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dgtatu01

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True but, there is always a limit. We have had crashes before, the next will probably be a big one. I just can't see raising the debt as fast as we have been in recent years without eventually it getting bigger than the economy can handle.
Also I think the federal government could almost infinitely finance infrastructure. That kind of spending just magnifies exponentially through the economy.
 
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BlueBallz_rivals30790

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I have bought 2 pairs of American made shoes over the last 10 years. One was a $300 pair of Chippewa Boots and the other was a $450 pair of Allen Edmonds dress shoes. I don't know about the boots, but I know Cole Haan shoes used to be made domestically and were similarly priced to Allen Edmonds. Nike bought them and moved production overseas and they still make a heck of a dress shoe, but they can be had for $100-$150 now. Sneakers haven't been made in the US since Chuck Taylors were the only sneakers available.

Instead of putting Americans to work making things that Chinese folks can make for 1/5 of the price why don't we put Americans to work doing things Chinese people can't do for us like improving our roadways, updating our dams, making our internet better and faster, and providing better healthcare to our citizens. I would rather have cheap shoes and those things than be forced to buy overpriced shoes and have no chance of getting those things, but maybe that's just me.

New Balance has shoes between $125-200, while not 100% made in USA, over 70% of the components are, which is better than others. Running shoes I typically buy are in this price range, so it’s not much of a difference. So it can be done. Psudo has shoes for $98 made in the USA. It certainly wouldn’t happen overnight because a blind eye has been turned for so long, but starting to pull back manufacturing would be nice. I don’t think it will happen though, businesses don’t have the incentives to do it.
 
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SourceConnection

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*GESARA*
 

Backer cutter

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No offense to anyone. We all get used to a way of living. I did also. Last June I suffered a knee injury that I’m still recovering from. I’m self employed, have no one to take over for me, so I sold my business and have been living off the sales since. I’m just now able to start back but had to borrow a substantial amount to do so, and if things go well, it will take 3 years to get back to having the income I had previously. But my wife makes enough for the mortgage payment and utilities, so I’m lucky. My point is, sometimes we learn that we can live fine for less than we think. Just have to figure out what is important and what’s not.
 

fredmanthecatfan

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We could easily give everyone 2k a month. Heck, we could give everyone 10k a month easily. Of course what you could actually buy with that 2k or 10k would be very limited. Would definitely need to move to a digital currency because the paper and ink would cost more than the money they print.
 
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jlynn323

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Nov 5, 2002
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At least $20 some trillion and the dollar hasn't lost hardly any value relative to the rest of the worlds currencies. I also think that depends on the size of the economy. Remember the bigger the economy gets the less any single $ means and a bigger economy means more tax $'s as well. These things feed each other and make the past debts less and less meaningul in the future as time goes by.
I keep thinking we will eventually go the way of the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe with hyperinflation. So that's really not an eventual possibility? I know the debt will never be paid so it's going to keep going up. There has to be some kind of eventual reckoning, right?
 
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May 6, 2004
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It’s a works until it doesn’t type thing, and when it doesn’t you better be glad you have 10x the military power of anyone else.

Dollar has strengthened through all this because everyone else is going to be even weaker. Europe was already heading towards recession.

It remains to be seen what sort of economic effects this start/stop of the economy is going to actually induce, but if it actually V shape recovers like Trump and company say it will it’s going to be incredible, a miracle really. If they produced models of death/despair from economic turmoil with all it entails and put them side by side with Covid, there’d be riots.
 

fredmanthecatfan

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I do think that many underestimate the potential of AI, and how rapidly it may happen. I actually do believe that in 15-20 years, AI will advance to the point that humans are obsolete. There are those like Elon Musk who are trying to incorporate AI technology into human beings just to keep humans competitive with “robots”.
While the reasonable question is, “Why allow it to get that far?” The answer is that this technology is likely not to come from the US, but China. To advance this technology requires tons of human data, their population and lack of concern for civil liberties makes them odds on favorites to get there first.
Anyway, I’m not sure the “robots” would care about preserving the human species.
Some think that they will, and we humans will live a life of leisure. Others think they will annihilate us. My guess is that they will not be particularly interested in our outcome.
 
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dgtatu01

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I keep thinking we will eventually go the way of the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe with hyperinflation. So that's really not an eventual possibility? I know the debt will never be paid so it's going to keep going up. There has to be some kind of eventual reckoning, right?
I think the risks are doing too much at once, or paying stupid prices for things that the government buys. I think if the debt is used to build infrastructure the spending could be higher than on some other things. Infrastructure is the smartest thing to spend it on. It's like doing home improvements. You owe on it, but you get to live in a nicer house and it increases the value of your house. On a country level it is even better. It can't be taken away, it makes the economy work better, it makes your citizens lives easier and better, etc. Infrastructure creates more economic activity outside of the government which increase tax revenue. If $100 bill goes through five hands the governemnt will collect taxes on income from 5 people, with better infrastructure you might pass that $100 bill through 6.5 or 7 hands because there is just more economic activity.

Also remember inflation is a product of too much money in the economy, not too much spending. A $1 of government spending is always accompanied by an offset. It is taken out of the economy by taxation or by debt financing. If I tax you or borrow from you the money spent is still removed from the economy on the public side. The only way to create inflation is for the Federal Reserve to buy too many of the Treasury Bonds, because when they buy them the money is truly printed and put into circulation anew.
 
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Blu-ish

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A little harsh but mostly accurate. What the younger generation lacks IMO (20 somethings) is perseverance. Working your *** off and being smart about career goes a long way.
I would love to see you tell that to my daughter the nurse and her boyfriend who supervises a warehouse that they lack perseverance or career smarts. Both work hard and make good money. They have many friends who are also good examples of hard working 20 somethings. Yeah, some 20 somethings are bums, my generation has its share of bums, and my fathers generation had bums.
 
May 6, 2004
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Incidentally, there was an article in NY times about just that, the fragility of this generation. It’s not as simple as every generation has its bums, there’s a variety of factors why this one is particularly weak and capable of incredibly ignorant ideas and gullibility.

Maybe this, some real adversity, will be a very good thing for us in the long run.

Over the past decades, a tide of “safetyism” has crept over American society. As Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt put it in their book “The Coddling of the American Mind,” this is the mentality that whatever doesn’t kill you makes you weaker. The goal is to eliminate any stress or hardship a child might encounter, so he or she won’t be wounded by it.

So we’ve seen a wave of overprotective parenting. Parents have cut back on their children’s unsupervised outdoor play because their kids might do something unsafe. As Kate Julian reports in “The Anxious Child and the Crisis of Modern Parenting” in The Atlantic, parents are now more likely to accommodate their child’s fears: accompanying a 9-year-old to the toilet because he’s afraid to be alone, preparing different food for a child because she won’t eat what everyone else eats.

Meanwhile schools ban dodge ball and inflate grades. Since 2005 the average G.P.A. in affluent high schools has risen from about 2.75 to 3.0 so everybody can feel affirmed.

It’s been a disaster. This overprotective impulse doesn’t shelter people from fear; it makes them unprepared to deal with the fear that inevitably comes. Suicide rates are way up, depression rates have skyrocketed, especially for girls. As Julian notes, a staggering number of doctor visits now end with a prescription for an anti-anxiety medication, like Xanax or Valium.

But there has been one sector of American society that has been relatively immune from this culture of overprotection — medical training. It starts on the undergraduate level. While most academic departments slather students with A’s, science departments insist on mastery of the materials. According to one study, the average English class G.P.A. is above 3.3 and the average chemistry class G.P.A. is 2.78.

While most academic departments have become more forgiving, science departments remain rigorous (to a fault). As much as 60 percent of pre-meds never make it through their major.

Debatable: Agree to disagree, or disagree better? Broaden your perspective with sharp arguments on the most pressing issues of the week.
Med school is intrinsically hard and is sometimes harder than it needs to be. But it trains people to work at a very high level amid incredible stress.

“There is tremendous value in knowing they can wake you up in the middle of the night and you can still make a good decision,” says Adina Luba Kalet, director of the Kern Institute for the Transformation of Medical Education at the Medical College of Wisconsin.

Med schools also instill a demanding professional ethos, which stretches back thousands of years. “Doctors are taught to run into the fire and not away from it,” Kalet continues. “Today, the young doctors feel free to say, ‘I’m terrified, but I’m going to do it anyway.’ That’s courage. We’re staying. We’re a team.”

It certainly doesn’t always happen, but the professional ideal is clear, she concludes. “You can save lives. And when you can’t save lives you can be in the darkness with patients even if there is nothing to offer. You stay.”

Med schools are struggling to become more humane and less macho, more relationship-centered and less body-centered. But when you look at what’s happening across the country right now, you see the benefits of their tough training.

This week The Times Magazine ran a diary by an E.R. doctor named Helen Ouyang. To enter the E.R. with her in this crisis is to enter another world.

Normal procedures crumble under the crush of patients. A man dies unattended, sitting in a chair. A veteran physician feels stripped of his invincibility. The core of Ouyang’s diary is her acceptance that it’s impossible to do her work and still stay safe. “It seems impossible to avoid getting infected.”

Death and talk of death is everywhere. The virus seems to do whatever it wants. “We put our full minds and whole hearts into trying to save them. Then I see their bodies shut down anyway. They are alone.” Wearing the same masks for so long etches lines into her face, but she keeps going back in.

There’s absolutely no self-glorification here, just endurance. I’m reminded of Dr. Albert Schweitzer’s 1931 memoir. When hiring doctors for his hospital in the African jungle, he wrote, he never hired anyone who thought he was doing something grand and heroic. The only doctors who would last are those who thought what they were doing was as ordinary and necessary as doing the dishes: “There are no heroes of action — only heroes of renunciation and suffering.”

I’m also reminded of the maxim that excellence is not an action, it’s a habit. Tenacity is not a spontaneous flowering of good character. It’s doing what you were trained to do. It manifests not in those whose training spared them hardship but in those whose training embraced hardship and taught students to deal with it.

I’m hoping this moment launches a change in the way we raise and train all our young, at all ages. I’m hoping it exorcises the tide of “safetyism,” which has gone overboard.

The virus is another reminder that hardship is woven into the warp and woof of existence. Training a young person is training her or him to master hardship, to endure suffering and, by building something new from the wreckage, redeem it.

The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: [email protected].

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.
 

HagginHall1999

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Oct 19, 2018
15,812
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I would love to see you tell that to my daughter the nurse and her boyfriend who supervises a warehouse that they lack perseverance or career smarts. Both work hard and make good money. They have many friends who are also good examples of hard working 20 somethings. Yeah, some 20 somethings are bums, my generation has its share of bums, and my fathers generation had bums.

Lol, ok...clearly I meant everyone in their 20's..

Good grief.

I also never used the word "bum" to describe anyone. Just because I think some of the younger generation lacks perseverance doesn't mean I think they are "bums".
 
Mar 23, 2012
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I understand your position but I'm pretty sure you pay more than most so I wouldn't use your example as a representation of the typical American. I could live in downtown Chicago on $1,700/mo in a nice condo.

https://www.lendingtree.com/home/mortgage/national-average-monthly-mortgage-payment/

In most places, getting a 1-bedroom rental ends up being more expensive than two with someone else paying half the rent. At a place I looked at a little over a year ago in central VA, it was like $900 a month for a two-bedroom but $800 for a 1-bedroom. So in effect, the cost per bedroom was $450 vs. $800. Hell, at those prices, might as well get the 2-bedroom anyways and turn the second bedroom into a guestroom, storage, home office, or whatever you want to with it if you are deadset on living alone.
 
Mar 23, 2012
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Instead of putting Americans to work making things that Chinese folks can make for 1/5 of the price why don't we put Americans to work doing things Chinese people can't do for us like ... making our internet better and faster
Because we love to let the ISPs have monopolies in most of America and all levels of government routinely refuse to do anything to change that. When you have a monopoly on an essential product, there is no incentive to make anything better.
 
May 6, 2004
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Because we love to let the ISPs have monopolies in most of America and all levels of government routinely refuse to do anything to change that. When you have a monopoly on an essential product, there is no incentive to make anything better.

Which is why you don't give it over to the government, like Europeans do with their health care and even their telecommunications....

Shoot [eyeroll], in Europe, you have to pay the government to give you your propaganda, there is no cutting the chord even.

But if they give you 2k per person, which they never will cause they can't, and you'll (general) bend over and like it. You don't know what you're (general) asking for and you don't understand that it can't really happen (like you think it could/would, anyway)