Carino: “Big Ten needs a philosophy change. Theyre running slow offenses through bigs like it’s 1985”

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anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
From his jersey jump shot podcast today. He nailed it. The big ten will continue to be a bottom of the barrel p6 until a change is made.
 

Mb5789

Heisman
Feb 2, 2005
5,417
16,579
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He doesn’t watch Iowa?
It’s not one thing
Most of the B1G tries to run their offense through their bigs, when most of the country runs their offense through their guards. Think about recently all the top teams in the B1G...

Incomplete list here and I realize these players were not all on these teams each year. But these are some recent top players in the B1G and how their teams have performed in the tournament:

Illinois: Kofi Cockburn (R32 loss in 2021 as #1 seed, R32 loss in 2022 as #4 seed, R64 loss in 2023 as #8 seed))
Iowa: Luka Garza (R32 loss in 2021 as #2 seed, R64 loss as #5 seed in 2022, R64 loss in 2023 as #8 seed))
Purdue: Zach Edey (R64 loss in 2021 as #4 seed, Sweet 16 loss to St Peters in 2022 as #3 seed, R64 loss as #1 seed in 2023)
Ohio State: Zed Key/Zach Liddell (R64 loss in 2021 as #2 seed, R32 loss in 2022 as #7 seed, no tourney in 2023)
Indiana: Trace Jackson-Davis (no tourney in 2021, R64 loss in 2022 as #12 seed, R32 loss in 2023 as #4 seed)
Rutgers: Cliff Omuryi

There's a reason why this type of offense gets chewed up and spit out by guard driven teams in the tournament...
 
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rutgersquikcat

Sophomore
Aug 31, 2012
39
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I see no indication that big 10 teams are against running their offense through guards. I simply think they have not recruited that position as well. I think coach Pike is a great example. He seems interested in recruiting fast guards, but his team this year just didn’t have that player in place (at least not until the end of the season). With his recent recruiting I expect that will change and we will see a new style on offense.

It’s actually one of the things I like best about our coach. He seems flexible in his approach based on the players he has. I was concerned that wouldn’t be enough to make up for below average recruiting at first, but that seems to be changing and I think his offenses will improve as a result.
 

scarletrat

All-Conference
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yeah, the Big 10 has lacked explosive wings, speed, top end PGs, and high powered offenses.

but honestly, what has the Big East outside of Nova done In March? Xavier made 1 elite 8 run years ago, PC reached a sweet 16. Michigan, MSU, Wisconsin all have had deep runs, with Michigan and Wisconsin reaching final 4s and the title game. Purdue would have reached final 4 if not for fluke ending vs Virginia a few years ago.
 

MiloTalon13

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Most of the B1G tries to run their offense through their bigs, when most of the country runs their offense through their guards. Think about recently all the top teams in the B1G...

Illinois: Kofi Cockburn (R32 loss in 2021 as #1 seed, R32 loss in 2022 as #4 seed, R64 loss in 2023 as #8 seed))
Iowa: Luka Garza (R32 loss in 2021 as #2 seed, R64 loss as #5 seed in 2022, R64 loss in 2023 as #8 seed))
Purdue: Zach Edey (R64 loss in 2021 as #4 seed, Sweet 16 loss to St Peters in 2022 as #3 seed, R64 loss as #1 seed in 2023)
Ohio State: Zed Key/Zach Liddell (R64 loss in 2021 as #2 seed, R32 loss in 2022 as #7 seed, no tourney in 2023)
Indiana: Trace Jackson-Davis (no tourney in 2021, R64 loss in 2022 as #12 seed, R32 loss in 2023 as #4 seed)
Rutgers: Cliff Omuryi

There's a reason why this type of offense gets chewed up and spit out by guard driven teams in the tournament...
"Most"?
Zach Edey/Purdue in 2021?
Iowa/Garza 22 and 23?
Kofi/Illinois 2023?
geesh
 

Mb5789

Heisman
Feb 2, 2005
5,417
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yeah, the Big 10 has lacked explosive wings, speed, top end PGs, and high powered offenses.

but honestly, what has the Big East outside of Nova done In March? Xavier made 1 elite 8 run years ago, PC reached a sweet 16. Michigan, MSU, Wisconsin all have had deep runs, with Michigan and Wisconsin reaching final 4s and the title game. Purdue would have reached final 4 if not for fluke ending vs Virginia a few years ago.
The Big East is likely to have 2 Elite 8 teams this year (Creighton plays #15 Princeton and Uconn plays #8 Arkansas in the Sweet 16), and have 3 teams in the Sweet 16 in 2023. PC made a Sweet 16 last year, Creighton made one in 2021
 

Mb5789

Heisman
Feb 2, 2005
5,417
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"Most"?
Zach Edey/Purdue in 2021?
Iowa/Garza 22 and 23?
Kofi/Illinois 2023?
geesh
Not saying all had those players in all those years. All those teams run their offense through their bigs and was highlighting some of their star players. Should've worded it better, yeah but was trying to make a point quickly. Updated my post appropriately.
 

NewJerseyHawk

Heisman
Jan 11, 2007
23,899
37,568
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Here is the most relevant window, starting in 1979, when Magic Johnson took on Larry Bird and Indiana State.......,just as CBB was taking off om TV and the Big East started to be established as a true basketball league ..

Total Final Four appearances since 1980.

ACC 32 total appearances
B1G 27 total appearances
Big East 22 total appearances
SEC 19 total appearances
Big 8/12 13 total appearances

Total National Titles since 1979.

ACC has 13
Big East has 9
B1G has 5
SEC has 5
Big 8/12 has 4

Has the B1G come up short in terms of National Titles since 2000.....duh, but is 20 or so years more realistic than 40 plus years?? TV changed the game in the 1979 to early 80s.

Most of the college basketball history post UCLA and John Wooden era is like discussing the Boston Celtics and Bill Russell.

There are times where basketball changed, with TV expansion and adding the 3 point shot for leagues. This spin of since 2000 is insanity. 27 appearances in 43 years is pretty good and is not solely reliant on 1 or 2 programs. It's spread out to Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State and even one with Minnesota.
 
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anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
The Big East is likely to have 2 Elite 8 teams this year (Creighton plays #15 Princeton and Uconn plays #8 Arkansas in the Sweet 16), and have 3 teams in the Sweet 16 in 2023. PC made a Sweet 16 last year, Creighton made one in 2021
Big east stinks and is equally as bad as big ten. The legit conferences are sec and big 12. Pac 12 and acc arent far behind. The bottom 2 though are definitely big east and big ten
 
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bitnez

All-American
Jan 18, 2006
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Iowa had the Murray brothers and lost. Wisconsin had Johnny Davis and lost. PSU had a great guard-based team and lost. Heck, sure Indiana had TJD, but they also had a 5* guard in JHS. The league is putting out non-big men lottery picks. It is alot of factors including perhaps the most obvious -- the coaches aren't as good.
 
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MiloTalon13

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Here is the most relevant window, starting in 1979, when Magic Johnson took on Larry Bird and Indiana State.......,just as CBB was taking off om TV and the Big East started to be established as a true basketball league ..

Total Final Four appearances since 1980.

ACC 32 total appearances
B1G 27 total appearances
Big East 22 total appearances
SEC 19 total appearances
Big 8/12 13 total appearances

Total National Titles since 1979.

ACC has 13
Big East has 9
B1G has 5
SEC has 5
Big 8/12 has 4

Has the B1G come up short in terms of National Titles since 2000.....duh, but is 20 or so years more realistic than 40 plus years?? TV changed the game in the 1979 to early 80s.

Most of the college basketball history post UCLA and John Wooden era is like discussing the Boston Celtics and Bill Russell.

There are times where basketball changed, with TV expansion and adding the 3 point shot for leagues. This spin of since 2000 is insanity. 27 appearances in 43 years is pretty good and is not solely reliant on 1 or 2 programs. It's spread out to Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State and even one with Minnesota.
Good stuff - maybe we're in the start of a new Era? The NIL Era.
Super Conference Era coming soon?
 

bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
238,116
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Big east stinks and is equally as bad as big ten. The legit conferences are sec and big 12. Pac 12 and acc arent far behind. The bottom 2 though are definitely big east and big ten


lol the pac 12 and acc certainly arent proving it...one school in sweet 16 and check out their records this year...wow you are blind and becoming a running joke here
 

Mb5789

Heisman
Feb 2, 2005
5,417
16,579
83
Creighton plays a lot of offense through their center
Uconn too.
Creighton might have the best 1-5 in CBB and their 3 starting guards (Trey Alexander, Baylor Scheierman and Ryan Nembhard) shoot a combined 38% from 3 on a combined average of 14.9 attempts per game.

UConn has a similarly prolific trio of starting guards/wings (Alex Karaban, Tristen Newton and Jordan Hawkins) with 3 of their starters shooting a combined 39% from 3 on a combined average of 15.1 attempts per game.

Both those examples have great big men but surround them with excellent guards and wings who can all shoot
 
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ScarletKid2008

Heisman
Sep 8, 2006
7,955
10,380
113
I think the committee is going to make a statement against the big tens poor post season showing come next March. Being a big ten bubble team is going to be a problem until it’s shown to be more proven in March
 
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bitnez

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I think the committee is going to make a statement against the big tens poor post season showing come next March. Being a big ten bubble team is going to be a problem until it’s shown to be more proven in March
But where are they going instead? The MWC is a joke and the ACC and P12 did nothing this year. Granted, yes, if you are team 9 or 10 be nervous, but we'll always be at least 8 bids every year. It will be interesting what happens when USC and UCLA join.
 
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cyrock3

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But where are they going instead? The MWC is a joke and the ACC and P12 did nothing this year. Granted, yes, if you are team 9 or 10 be nervous, but we'll always be at least 8 bids every year. It will be interesting what happens when USC and UCLA join.

Committee has proven it likes midmajors. Plenty of options there it can gift more bids to. MWC has as many Sweet Sixteen teams as the B1G. Why not give them one more? ACC had a very successful season last time around off low seeds. If Miami continues to do well, ACC could end up with like a 40-45% minimum. Big East is going to get better since Georgetown hired Cooley and the Johnnies are getting Pitino, and PC should be able to throw money at a decent replacement.

You’re expecting consistent logic out of a committee that isn’t very interested in it. They go on “vibes.” This is why OOC scheduling is going to be even more important going forward. Fully expect any B1G team that only gets big wins in conference to be further penalized than what happened this season.
 

MiloTalon13

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Creighton might have the best 1-5 in CBB and their 3 starting guards (Trey Alexander, Baylor Scheierman and Ryan Nembhard) shoot a combined 38% from 3 on a combined average of 14.9 attempts per game.

UConn has a similarly prolific trio of starting guards/wings (Alex Karaban, Tristen Newton and Jordan Hawkins) with 3 of their starters shooting a combined 39% on a combined average of 15.1 attempts per game.

Both those examples have great big men but surround them with excellent guards and wings who can all shoot
In other words - you can run through your big men if the bigs are good enough and the guards around them are really good and you have plenty of shooting. I agree.
 
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MiloTalon13

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You’re expecting consistent logic out of a committee that isn’t very interested in it. They go on “vibes.” This is why OOC scheduling is going to be even more important going forward. Fully expect any B1G team that only gets big wins in conference to be further penalized than what happened this season.

Yup and it gets worse with 2 more solid programs and potentially 22 conference games coming soon.

All the metrics could say B1G should have 12 or more teams in the tournament in 2025 and the selection committee will perform some mental gymnastics to say why they don't see it the same.
 
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anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
lol the pac 12 and acc certainly arent proving it...one school in sweet 16 and check out their records this year...wow you are blind and becoming a running joke here
Im looking deeper than one year bac. My memory hasnt failed me.

Just in case you forgot as recently as a year ago:

ACC: 3 teams in the elite 8, 2 in the final 4, 1 in the natty

How many years since the big ten has won a natty?
 

biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
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Big east stinks and is equally as bad as big ten. The legit conferences are sec and big 12. Pac 12 and acc arent far behind. The bottom 2 though are definitely big east and big ten
You’re smoking crack if you think the Pac12 is better than the B1G. Sure, they have UCLA, but the depth of the conference is hot garbage. Even the ACC doesn’t have much depth.
The B1G no doubt was horrible at the top. I won’t even debate that. It’s certainly taken steps back, but no way the Pac12 is better
 
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anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
You’re smoking crack if you think the Pac12 is better than the B1G. Sure, they have UCLA, but the depth of the conference is hot garbage. Even the ACC doesn’t have much depth.
The B1G no doubt was horrible at the top. I won’t even debate that. It’s certainly taken steps back, but no way the Pac12 is better
P12 not as deep but better high end teams. ACC is better than b10. acc just had a down year. They had 3 of the 8 in the elite 8 last year
 
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biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
14,002
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P12 not as deep but better high end teams. ACC is better than b10. acc just had a down year. They had 3 of the 8 in the elite 8 last year
Basically you’re saying the Pac12 is better because UCLA is carrying it. That’s all they have when it comes to “high end schools.” Zona is nothing special
As for the ACC, yes they did well in the tournament last year. But that was last year. This year. they had 6 teams with a NET worse than 100. Maybe that will change next year, but the depth of that conference has gotten worse.
Every conference has its issues for sure.
The B1G needs to step up and get better at the top. But the depth of the conference is better than most.
 

RUDivision

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Here is the most relevant window, starting in 1979, when Magic Johnson took on Larry Bird and Indiana State.......,just as CBB was taking off om TV and the Big East started to be established as a true basketball league ..

Total Final Four appearances since 1980.

ACC 32 total appearances
B1G 27 total appearances
Big East 22 total appearances
SEC 19 total appearances
Big 8/12 13 total appearances

Total National Titles since 1979.

ACC has 13
Big East has 9
B1G has 5
SEC has 5
Big 8/12 has 4

Has the B1G come up short in terms of National Titles since 2000.....duh, but is 20 or so years more realistic than 40 plus years?? TV changed the game in the 1979 to early 80s.

Most of the college basketball history post UCLA and John Wooden era is like discussing the Boston Celtics and Bill Russell.

There are times where basketball changed, with TV expansion and adding the 3 point shot for leagues. This spin of since 2000 is insanity. 27 appearances in 43 years is pretty good and is not solely reliant on 1 or 2 programs. It's spread out to Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State and even one with Minnesota.
It’s not spin and it needs to be looked at post 2010. Dantoni changed the game with his offensive mind starting with Nash and those Phoenix teams but basketball was forever changed by Steph starting in 2010.
Going back to look at the 80’s and 90’s has zero impact on todays game. So counting Final fours and championship’s are nice but irrelevant to todays game.

Is the big ten evolving with the game? Sure you can point to Iowa but Fran does it with country boys who are not great athletes. The point is valid and the big ten has to evolve.
 
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RUDivision

All-Conference
Jan 6, 2023
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Yup and it gets worse with 2 more solid programs and potentially 22 conference games coming soon.

All the metrics could say B1G should have 12 or more teams in the tournament in 2025 and the selection committee will perform some mental gymnastics to say why they don't see it the same.
Nothing to worry about the tournament is going to 90+ teams by 2025 or the power 5 will break away and run its own tournament away from the committee. The power 5 is fed up with Cinderella being more important then schools who play harder and tougher competition all year.
 

Scangg

Heisman
Mar 19, 2016
25,448
49,368
113
Here is the most relevant window, starting in 1979, when Magic Johnson took on Larry Bird and Indiana State.......,just as CBB was taking off om TV and the Big East started to be established as a true basketball league ..

Total Final Four appearances since 1980.

ACC 32 total appearances
B1G 27 total appearances
Big East 22 total appearances
SEC 19 total appearances
Big 8/12 13 total appearances

Total National Titles since 1979.

ACC has 13
Big East has 9
B1G has 5
SEC has 5
Big 8/12 has 4

Has the B1G come up short in terms of National Titles since 2000.....duh, but is 20 or so years more realistic than 40 plus years?? TV changed the game in the 1979 to early 80s.

Most of the college basketball history post UCLA and John Wooden era is like discussing the Boston Celtics and Bill Russell.

There are times where basketball changed, with TV expansion and adding the 3 point shot for leagues. This spin of since 2000 is insanity. 27 appearances in 43 years is pretty good and is not solely reliant on 1 or 2 programs. It's spread out to Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State and even one with Minnesota.
You're missing the entire point of the argument grouping data from the 80's and 90's in. The entire argument is the game has changed from how it was played in that era

You really do love to try to cherry pick data to fit your narrative whether it makes sense or not