Well it would only be one hail mary not 2. And also, depending on the kick return position, it might not even have to be a hail mary, it could just be a 30 yard post or curl or something like that to get to the 40 yard line and then go and kick a 55 yard FG.
Clock management at the end
- Thread starter BleedinRutgersRed
- Start date
Well it would only be one hail mary not 2. And also, depending on the kick return position, it might not even have to be a hail mary, it could just be a 30 yard post or curl or something like that to get to the 40 yard line and then go and kick a 55 yard FG.
No, that isn't possible. Your last post had 15 seconds remaining pre fg. We know for a fact it takes 5 seconds to kick the field goal, because that is what it did, not 3. That leaves 10 seconds pre kick off. A squib takes it down to 5, at absolute best. And that is assuming they don't try and run and kneel it. Let's say the squib got them to great field position on their 35. That's one opportunity to get 65 yards on a hail mary. And that is being generous. 5 seconds isn't enough to run a play for 40 yards and get your fg kicker on and kick the field goal. Not even close.
I'll take those odds all day long.
Your timing is all off, no offense. The field goal does not take 5 seconds. It took 3 seconds.... the only reason they ran off the last 2 seconds was because of the Indiana penalty. (I believe... I would like someone who is a rule expert to come and make a ruling on this because it is a key rule to know going forward.) But anyway, so the 3 seconds go off and we are down to 12 seconds. Now we squib the ball and they are tackled with either 6 or 7 seconds left on the clock. And now here is where you ARE MISSING THE CRUCIAL WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD! Indiana does not have to throw a hail mary to the end zone BECAUSE THEY STILL HAVE THEIR LAST TIMEOUT because we did not force them to use it!!!!! THIS IS SO KEY and you are completely leaving this part out of your scenario. They now can run a deep throw and make the catch and call that timeout and be able to take a super long field goal.
So again yes the odds are low, but it is a scenario that shouldn't even be possible if we had used better clock management.
Again we are now splitting hairs because in reality we won the game.... but again my response was because people were talking about PERFECT clock management and I just wanted to point out it was pretty darn good, but not perfect.
It looked like 1 second was still on the clock after the kick. They had a penalty on the last play. There is a 10 second runoff rule in on a penalty in the final minute of play in either half in college football. I don't know if that applies if the opposing team does not take the penalty though. Either way, the ltime management was perfect.
The only way there is that much time left on the clock is if they had used their timeout. If they didn't, what would have happened is what actually happened.
So no, they wouldn't have had their timeout. And there is no rule that runs off two seconds of a clock in that scenario that I am aware of, so yes, we are talking about going 100 yards in total in 10 seconds, including a kick off.
My apologies you are completely correct about the timeout. They would have had to used their last timeout to stop the clock at :15 seconds. So yes you're correct it would only be a kickoff and then either a hail mary option or they could have tried running a deep route of some sort and somehow catching it and getting out of bounds with time on the clock to kick the field goal.
Of course, it all boils down to if you think it was "perfect" to spike the ball and also use our timeouts to ensure we were able to complete a hand-off or if you think that "perfect" clock management would be forcing Indiana to use their last timeout and making sure that they had no possibility of getting the ball back after we made or missed our field goal.
That's why it was perfect. One of two out comes were possible. That what actually did occur or them having to burn a timeout to stop the clock allowing one play from scrimmage- maybe.
As such, anyone who is claiming some crazy miscues by Flood based off of their coach not burning their timeout (agree they should have) needs to go back to football 101 class.
Getting it right trumps everything. They did. If their coach plays it right and they have 10 seconds left (at absolute best) on the clock to receive a kick off AND make the winning play needing 100 yards from the kick off point, then he still played it right.
It was the best clock management I have seen from Flood and staff and yes, it was as perfect as could be.
As such, anyone who is claiming some crazy miscues by Flood based off of their coach not burning their timeout (agree they should have) needs to go back to football 101 class.
Getting it right trumps everything. They did. If their coach plays it right and they have 10 seconds left (at absolute best) on the clock to receive a kick off AND make the winning play needing 100 yards from the kick off point, then he still played it right.
It was the best clock management I have seen from Flood and staff and yes, it was as perfect as could be.
Anyone who has ever coached the game knows you call that TO with less than 3 seconds left to ensure its the final play of the game. Other than that, the clock management was perfect, except for Indiana not calling their last TO to force Rutgers ro kick off and having a final play or 2. That was the real head scratcher.
This.
When Laviano spiked the ball, I assumed that the thought was to gain time in the huddle so as not to have to hurry and make a mistake. Personally, I would have NOT had him spike the ball, but huddle up and take your time moving to the LOS to run a running play (RU did have 2 time outs left). But I do not have a MAJOR problem there ... the number of downs RU had left were not relevant, nit at the 14 yard line.
I also think calling a timeout with 18 seconds was exactly what to do, in RU's case, even with Indiana having a time out left. RU ran the ball, gained 4 yards, and let the clock run down, while IU let them do so.
I do NOT understand why Indiana did not call a time out after the 1-yard gain, and 13-14 seconds left, for force RU to kick the FG and then kick off.
I also would have waited until there were 3 or 4 seconds left rather than 5 seconds left to stop the clock for the FG ... but there may be a standard there I do not know about. The clock wound down to 0 at the FG attempt anyway, so that seems moot.
As for kicking the FG on 3rd down vs 4th down ... I get the reasoning. But you cannot do that AND let the clock run down to near 0, can you? Either you kick the FG with 15-18 seconds left, on 3rd down, or you try to wind the clock down more, eh? Anyway, the WORST case for RU was OT, of the FG failed. No biggie either way for me.
The only point of the people who are saying it wasn't "perfect" was that the "perfection" Cali is hanging his argument on depended on the other coach being a dumbass.
If that is "perfect" in your world, congrats.
If the exact same scenario takes place against OSU, as one example, we are kicking off to a team full of studs with 13-14 seconds on the clock. That is enough time to down a squib kick and run a play.
The time management was good. It was winning football. It wasn't PERFECT.
People who are pro Flood are so anxious to give the guy a cookie, they are losing their minds. There is plenty of real tangible praise for Flood for Saturday. Calling his clock management "perfection" is not one of them.
If that is "perfect" in your world, congrats.
If the exact same scenario takes place against OSU, as one example, we are kicking off to a team full of studs with 13-14 seconds on the clock. That is enough time to down a squib kick and run a play.
The time management was good. It was winning football. It wasn't PERFECT.
People who are pro Flood are so anxious to give the guy a cookie, they are losing their minds. There is plenty of real tangible praise for Flood for Saturday. Calling his clock management "perfection" is not one of them.
I have asked you now 3x. Worst case he kicks the ball off with 10 seconds assuming they use their timeout. How is that not perfect and what exactly would you have done different?
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complaining about the time out with 5 seconds left is stretching it a bit.....although, I am surprised that the clock ran out on the play, a field goal kick
seems like a 2 or 3 second play at best..... still I would let that complaint go, the other time issue arguments have more merit.
Once we got the 1st down in easy(ok- I realize we had to kicks blocked) FG range, at first I was a little WTF are we doing spiking the ball?
But then, I put on my "out of the box" football hat. We have 3 new OL, including the center. We have a new QB that has botched the exchange twice in the same area over the past few weeks and relatively new RB's. Stop, take a breath, get the next few plays called and remind the team it is in their hands. No fumble, no penalty and keep the ball in the middle of the field. The beauty is that Rm III has broken a ton of runs between the tackles- who know- he could do it again for a TD all while we were playing it safe.
To drop back and throw the ball, to pitch the ball outside, to string a run to the outside, etc is a recipe for disaster. To win by 3 or win by 6 makes no difference to a coaching staff or the team.
Why Indy didn't call a TO, made no sense. But that is their problem, not ours. But to make sure we did not make an error with all of our youth in a very emotional moment was much more important then needing to cover a kick.
I'm not sure if there is a reason to call the final TO at 5 rather then 3 but since it ran the time off, I have no reason to question it now. I did at the time.
But then, I put on my "out of the box" football hat. We have 3 new OL, including the center. We have a new QB that has botched the exchange twice in the same area over the past few weeks and relatively new RB's. Stop, take a breath, get the next few plays called and remind the team it is in their hands. No fumble, no penalty and keep the ball in the middle of the field. The beauty is that Rm III has broken a ton of runs between the tackles- who know- he could do it again for a TD all while we were playing it safe.
To drop back and throw the ball, to pitch the ball outside, to string a run to the outside, etc is a recipe for disaster. To win by 3 or win by 6 makes no difference to a coaching staff or the team.
Why Indy didn't call a TO, made no sense. But that is their problem, not ours. But to make sure we did not make an error with all of our youth in a very emotional moment was much more important then needing to cover a kick.
I'm not sure if there is a reason to call the final TO at 5 rather then 3 but since it ran the time off, I have no reason to question it now. I did at the time.
I answered you already.
You either don't understand what strategy means or you're being purposely obtuse.
If you consider "perfection" depending on the other coach being a dumbass, I don't know what to tell you.
PERFECT--the only point I'm making--would have dictated the outcome, not depended on the ineptness of the other coach. PERFECTION is not putting yourself in the position of having to kick-off at all. Is it the end of the world? No, it isn't. It just isn't PERFECT.
Spiking the ball on first down does away with any thoughts of "perfection." That play puts you in the position of having to kick-off if the other guy did his job.
Our staff had the ability to force IU to use all of their TOs AND kick a FG at :05. Win/Win on both counts. As it played out, the other guy didn't do his job. You're taking that and concluding that we managed the clock PERFECTLY. It's an illogical conclusion.
Perfection would have been to run a slow developing running play on 1st down rather than spiking it. That would have taken care of the 8-10 seconds that we're discussing. Is it a nitpick? Yeah. But I wouldn't even be talking about it outside of this "perfection" conversation. That said, there are a handful of people here who can attest that this isn't a second guess on my part. We had an email conversation going as the game wound down and I made the comment within seconds of the play happening. I found it a bad play then, and it's still a bad play despite the winning result.
What if we fumbled it or threw an INT going for the TD. With a young QB. Its not loserish - its smart FB. Among other things - going for the TD leaves the possibility of the other team getting the ball back with time left on the clock.Against a team that had already scored 52 points against you, thats probably a bad idea.
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basically the same theme as many here, better to gain composure..... I think a lot of us fans watch pro football games and see that the pros
can run up the field and then execute flawlessly...... Rutgers, not so much.... we are not a pro machine...
when we got the ball inside the 15, the game should have been ours to win, and there were various ways to get it done....do it calmly, and if we had a chance to think about it, all the better.....
after the spike we had 2 downs to move closer, center the ball, what ever.... then the kick.... it wasn't like we had to do something dramatic on the first down play.
All the more reason to not spike the ball.
You are on the 16 with 47 seconds and multiple TOs. No need to spike the ball under any circumstance.
Is the rule that I'm not aware of that says you have to wait until 4th down to attempt a FG? If things got that confused, you use a TO and kick on 3rd.
A running clock is your friend. You basically gave IU a free TO--just so happens their coach was too dumb to capitalize on it.
I have no problem with kicking off with 10 seconds (best case), if that is how it went down. To me, under those circumstances, that is still perfect use of the clock. They would have to have used their timeout and we would have secured the points.
Hudson. Our point is that hurrying to the line on first down when there is a 85% chance of a good outcome vs spiking it and upping that to 95% may not have been all that bad. We did not want a bad snap, fumble or penalty. Slowing it down significantly lowered the odds of those bad things happening.
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we could then argue that both coaches made mistakes in the final seconds with time management.....
I fully understand your point, but I am giving the coach a pass on this, even if the Indiana coach used his time out and got to get a kickoff...
we were not going to lose the game at that point......we squib kick it, end the game.... I doubt seriously we lose, you can argue otherwise.
I give the coach a pass because he kept our team trying in this game.... he took our extra point /field goal kicker on the side, talked to him
without anger, kept his spirit up despite the failed attempts....and sent him back out there to win the game..
He does things this way, and I see other coaches like Edsall seething on the sideline at his players.... there are many who coach with anger
coach flood has done something that we are not used to....he keeps our players playing when all seems lost.....we are winning road games as
underdogs, sometimes double digit dogs.....
so pick on the time management issue.... I would trade that brain fart for a couple of comeback victories anytime....
You can't fumble the snap when you spike the ball? Is there a special spike snap technique I'm not aware of?
Again, people are contorting themselves to give HCKF praise. It's fine. I get it. Just don't call it perfect clock management.
We aren't picking on his time management. Time management happens to be the topic of this thread.
Hudson is correct: It's really splitting hairs percentage-wise, but spiking the ball is sub-optimal in that situation.
Most offenses have a "hurry-up" call built into the gameplan in case you want to run a play before an official review can be made. Usually it's a simple run based out of the same exact formation as the previous play. We could have easily done that.
In any case, I'm sure the staff is going to analyze what happened there and any lessons learned will simply be more tools in the toolbox.
Hudson is correct: It's really splitting hairs percentage-wise, but spiking the ball is sub-optimal in that situation.
Most offenses have a "hurry-up" call built into the gameplan in case you want to run a play before an official review can be made. Usually it's a simple run based out of the same exact formation as the previous play. We could have easily done that.
In any case, I'm sure the staff is going to analyze what happened there and any lessons learned will simply be more tools in the toolbox.
That's all fine, except I'm not doing any of what you are kvetching over. Other than calling him Elmer Fludd over his absurd black ops missions, I like the guy. I've never once advocated he should be fired. I'm not anti Flood at all.
I'm anti calling something that isn't perfect, perfect, in an attempt to heap praise on the guy.
Praise him for all the things you mention. They didn't quit on him. They clearly love him. They play hard for him. The offense is playing very well. All true and grounded in reality. He didn't manage the last :47 seconds perfectly. That's all.
That's all I'm saying. I've even said it was "winning football play." It just wasn't PERFECT. To argue it was, suggests you really don't understand the clock. Which is fine. Most fans don't. Doesn't make them bad fans. They should just find something else to argue about, cause in this case, they are wrong.
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yes, he did not manage the final 47 seconds as effectively as he could have, and the Indiana coach did not take advantage...both made a mistake, but both mistakes more than likely had no bearing on winning and losing.
I agree they didn't.
We're just having a sports conversation.
If this thread didn't exist, I don't even comment on it here--though I did question it in real time.
It's not something that would have ever moved me to create a thread critiquing the management.
I've said many times it wasn't perfect. Hell, over the years- Saban and Meyers have had bone headed clock management as well- DURING championship games.
In this case- his mistakes were minimal
In this case- his mistakes were minimal
Yes, can fumble the snap there. But you also know well enough that there is a big difference between snapping a ball without concern of getting your head up to block or QB worrying about anything but take a step back and throw to the ground. On the other hand, if Flood want to stop the clock on first down just to settle things down, a timeout would have been smarter
Rutgers did a GREAT job.
Flood and the coaching staff and the other players on the bench did a GREAT keeping the teams heads up and keeping them playing hard all the way until the clock hit zero.
Flood and the team got the exact result we wanted... a WIN!
The clock management was VERY, VERY GOOD.
But the last :47 seconds was not perfect. That is all. For example, since we went for the FG on 4th down there is ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBLE REASON you should be calling the timeout at the :05 second mark. As another poster said earlier, you ALWAYS call this timeout with :03 or :02 seconds left.
The FG went through the upright with :02 seconds left. FOR CLARITY since a lot of posters are unsure about what happened, THE ONLY REASON THE CLOCK RAN DOWN TO ZERO WAS BECAUSE INDIANA COMMITTED A PENALTY AND THAT MEANS THERE IS A 10 SECOND RUNOFF. This one fact alone should end the conversation about the clock management being perfect because there was zero reason to risk giving Indiana a chance to return the kick off. That's all.
And please unless you are going to argue that this somehow is "perfect" clock management then lets end this thread and focus our energies on something new because I am pretty sure we have all discussed and agree on the majority of things such as this is very nit picky, that the result was a win in the end and that is what matters, that Flood did a GREAT job with clock management, and all of the other points we have discussed exhaustively.
Lets go RU and lets CHOP Ohio State!
Flood and the coaching staff and the other players on the bench did a GREAT keeping the teams heads up and keeping them playing hard all the way until the clock hit zero.
Flood and the team got the exact result we wanted... a WIN!
The clock management was VERY, VERY GOOD.
But the last :47 seconds was not perfect. That is all. For example, since we went for the FG on 4th down there is ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBLE REASON you should be calling the timeout at the :05 second mark. As another poster said earlier, you ALWAYS call this timeout with :03 or :02 seconds left.
The FG went through the upright with :02 seconds left. FOR CLARITY since a lot of posters are unsure about what happened, THE ONLY REASON THE CLOCK RAN DOWN TO ZERO WAS BECAUSE INDIANA COMMITTED A PENALTY AND THAT MEANS THERE IS A 10 SECOND RUNOFF. This one fact alone should end the conversation about the clock management being perfect because there was zero reason to risk giving Indiana a chance to return the kick off. That's all.
And please unless you are going to argue that this somehow is "perfect" clock management then lets end this thread and focus our energies on something new because I am pretty sure we have all discussed and agree on the majority of things such as this is very nit picky, that the result was a win in the end and that is what matters, that Flood did a GREAT job with clock management, and all of the other points we have discussed exhaustively.
Lets go RU and lets CHOP Ohio State!
There was absolutely no excuse to spike the ball and no excuse for IU coach not to call time out.
You have 47 secs left on their 14 and just got a first down.
By spiking the ball, a) you immediately stop the clock in effect giving the other team another free time out, b) assuming the other coach is not a dimwit and properly utilize his final time out, force yourself having to kick off.
Perfection would be to just run to the line, let the clock run to :02 secs, heck just take a knee and take a -2 yds loss, and force the other team to use their final time out. Then you have the benefit of all your time outs to discuss, evaluate and set up your next plays. YOU control your time outs, YOU set up the plays for the field goal; leaving your opponent with ZERO options.
You have 47 secs left on their 14 and just got a first down.
By spiking the ball, a) you immediately stop the clock in effect giving the other team another free time out, b) assuming the other coach is not a dimwit and properly utilize his final time out, force yourself having to kick off.
Perfection would be to just run to the line, let the clock run to :02 secs, heck just take a knee and take a -2 yds loss, and force the other team to use their final time out. Then you have the benefit of all your time outs to discuss, evaluate and set up your next plays. YOU control your time outs, YOU set up the plays for the field goal; leaving your opponent with ZERO options.
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It appears that the author of this article also does not think that Flood's clock management was perfect against Indiana. (This author doesn't even think to seem it was good which I very much disagree with because Flood and Laviano did an EXCELLENT job using the clock from the 4:47 mark to :47.)
Here is the link to the article...
http://www.onthebanks.com/2015/10/2...-flood-ben-mcdaniels-joe-rossi-norries-wilson
Obviously, this is just one article by one random author so it by no means is the be all end all of this debate. I just figured I would pass it along to the forum so we could all see it!
Lastly,I don't care that this thread is about a totally different topic...... LET'S GO RU! #ChopOhioState #ICan'tWaitForTheKnightPulseVideoAndChant
Here is the link to the article...
http://www.onthebanks.com/2015/10/2...-flood-ben-mcdaniels-joe-rossi-norries-wilson
Obviously, this is just one article by one random author so it by no means is the be all end all of this debate. I just figured I would pass it along to the forum so we could all see it!
Lastly,I don't care that this thread is about a totally different topic...... LET'S GO RU! #ChopOhioState #ICan'tWaitForTheKnightPulseVideoAndChant
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Bottom line is this. What's more retarded a team that stops the clock when the clock is your friend or a team that does not stop the clock when the clock is your enemy? Dumb and dumber anyone? I suppose Indiana coach is dumber since we won? I haven't decided yet.
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