It is not just a matter of roster size. It is a combo of the "one and done" game and the expectations of a high school athlete today. You can't over recruit a position with 3-4 year players and have a realistic expectation of landing one and done type kids.
***DUKE VS WAKE FOREST OFFICIAL GAMEDAY THREAD***
- Thread starter krzyzewskiville
- Start date
I think some of what you are saying is fair, but let's remember regardless of his rivals ranking he was never going to be more than what he is now. He has given his heart to this program and I think he has hit his ceiling. It is unfair that we ask him to play the amount of minutes we have this year and hold him to such high standards. I acknowledge the problem we have, but I also understand that there really is no answer around it unless Jeter develops quicker or Amile comes back.
Is chase jeter and Vrank being on the roster influencing Bolden's decision? Nope. I don't think that would have been a factor at all with okafor. Okafor would have started for every single team in the country last year no matter the depth. Bolden will start for about 98% of the teams in the country, duke included.
Also, for Marshall to watch the tapes and try to play smarter. While the guards should get most of the praises for his dunks, we do have to appreciate the fact that Jeter would not have been able to finish most of those plays. Give MP3 the credit that he has greatly improved his strength over the years, without which those dunks would not have happened.
Did you speak to Bolden? I think you are fooling yourself if you don't think these kids are looking at rosters and making sure that they will get max playing time from day 1.
You have to give Marshall some credit for developing his basketball IQ. He sets better screens (remember when he got at least one foul every game on a bad screen), he understands where to move to on the floor when guards penetrate, he doesn't seem to be forcing shots as much when receiving the ball in the post.
I can see improvement in each game.
He might not be the stat stuffer some of you want, but I think he's a huge piece of the puzzle. His teammates seem to love being around him, and I've heard he's been great with recruits during their visits. I salute Captain Plumlee!
I can see improvement in each game.
He might not be the stat stuffer some of you want, but I think he's a huge piece of the puzzle. His teammates seem to love being around him, and I've heard he's been great with recruits during their visits. I salute Captain Plumlee!
Yes they are looking at rosters but seriously with players like bolden, giles, tatum coaches are telling them they can most likely come in and start from day 1. I don't think K promises players or even Okafor he would be starting but I could see the convo going "if you come in work your tail off, go to class, keep your grades up, do x,y,z, there's no reason you can't start and lead this team to a national championship". Other coaches probably promise starting time.
Duke missed a couple of guys including Henry Ellenson, Tarcewski, Mitch McGary and Andre Drummond that kept them from recruiting after Marshall. At that point, the staff had a 4 year vision of the team that included Amile, Marshall and sprinkles of players the caliber of Okafor, Harry Giles, Chase Jeter and Diamond Stone.
Looking at who we got, we weren't trying to be a post oriented team after Oak. I'm betting K felt he could "get by" with this offensive group and Amile and Marshall. We won't be having this conversation at all if Amile didn't go down. And if Marshall went down, I'm sure you'd miss those dunks.
And on the topic of just those easy dunks, it was a combo of design, penetration, passing and positioning. Shaq is considered the most dominant center ever based on easy dunks. So if Marshall can continue to get 18 let alone 8 points on easy dunks, we will continue to win plenty of games.
I'm not sure why so much venom towards Marshall's development. He is who is and he wasn't expected to be any better than he is now. And he is worlds better than he was when he got here. We were saying the same things about Marshall that we are about Obi back in 2012. I just find it really hard to scoff at what he did at Wake. Degree of difficulty doesn't equal development or lack thereof. Marshall has progressed as well as what could have been expected in my estimation.
Looking at who we got, we weren't trying to be a post oriented team after Oak. I'm betting K felt he could "get by" with this offensive group and Amile and Marshall. We won't be having this conversation at all if Amile didn't go down. And if Marshall went down, I'm sure you'd miss those dunks.
And on the topic of just those easy dunks, it was a combo of design, penetration, passing and positioning. Shaq is considered the most dominant center ever based on easy dunks. So if Marshall can continue to get 18 let alone 8 points on easy dunks, we will continue to win plenty of games.
I'm not sure why so much venom towards Marshall's development. He is who is and he wasn't expected to be any better than he is now. And he is worlds better than he was when he got here. We were saying the same things about Marshall that we are about Obi back in 2012. I just find it really hard to scoff at what he did at Wake. Degree of difficulty doesn't equal development or lack thereof. Marshall has progressed as well as what could have been expected in my estimation.
My critique was on people thinking he played so well vs Wake, not venom towards him or his development. I apologize to anyone that feels like it came off that way. I also agree that he's about as good as I thought he could be. I get the shaq dunking reference but he owned the paint offensively and defensively and was able to create points with his back to the basket. I think it's clear marshall isn't a back to the basket player. Honestly I just felt his D was really poor vs wake.
We would be in a really bad place if Marshall went down I get that. I just think there's more of a focus on recruiting in the post now compared to 2-4 years ago. My opinion, no facts behind it.
That last statement is totally true. I can't disagree with you on that.
I just don't know why you can't appreciate what Marshall did. But that's why this is a discussion board. Time for discussion.
My opinion is that degree of difficulty doesn't diminish what Marshall did. He was in the right place, he caught the ball, he finished with guys around him. Do you see Obi or Jeter doing that? No one for Wake not named Devin Thomas did it either.
And this isn't the first time this year Marshall performed on offense. If we want to discuss level of competition, Marshall single-handedly kept Duke in the game against Kentucky for instance. Those weren't just easy dunks either. He finished with both hands, off rebounds and off drives. Who imagined Marshall would do THAT?! I'd imagine, before the season is over, we'll see that again.
So again, sure Marshall didn't Dream Shake Devin Thomas to death, but if Duke can continue to draw up 8-10 points a game for Marshall to get high percentage buckets, why can't he get a little bit of credit for that action, especially when no one else on the Duke roster as you have so ably illustrated is capable of such yet.
And in terms of his D, I agree he did not perform as admirably as we have seen from him, but what happens when Marshall goes to the bench in that game for long stretches due to foul trouble, or even worse, fouls out. So poor recruiting argument aside, with the team Duke has right now, no one else steps in and gives Duke 18. Marshall needed to be on the floor and sacrificing a few drives to Devin Thomas is probably a part of the game plan. You saw who was out thanks in part to Marshall. Devin Thomas. And that IMO is as good as a few blocks or contested shots.
Believe me I loved the dunks. It was awesome hearing wake fans go "the backboard is still shaking" or "how many dunks does he have". You are right he finished stronger than anyone else on duke could at this time.
As for the kentucky game, I think he showed a level of effort for offensive boards and on D that I haven't really seen from him since then. Is it because Amile went down? Not sure i completely think so. I really think he's so focused on not getting in foul trouble that he's not playing D like he needs to. Duke really needs him to man the boards and be solid defensively.
You know, K didn't get on marshall in the second half because of his D on Devin it was because he wasn't helping or hedging on the high ball screen. He put Thornton in such a hard place for 5 minutes every time down the court it seemed. Thornton even got pissed at him. K got on him then and the last few minutes of the game vs wake you saw his D really pick up, we need that all game. If marshall doesn't pick up dumb fouls at the 3 point line he'll be fine and can play smartly aggressive still.
Really?
Honestly, last year was a turbulent season as far as chemistry and roster went. However, in the end, everything happened exactly as it needed to happen in order to win a championship. Perhaps Grayson getting more minutes here or there makes a different impact then you think. Maybe more PT makes him rest on his laurels. Maybe chemistry is disrupted.
Either way, to say that there was that significant a coaching misjudgment when you win a championship seems odd. Perhaps the correct interpretation is that things went the way Coach K wanted them to and expected them to, thus leading to a Championship an reinforcing our trust in him.
Not only have I been to a real game and can tell you about the dunks and what they're like in person. I've played in real games and actually dunked in real games. I'd be glad to fill you in on the details, the adrenaline, crowd noise, and shock from the opposition seeing a 5'11 white guy throw it down
Check Mate
A Legend in his own mind. Out dunk Marshall, out coach and recruit Coach K.Not only have I been to a real game and can tell you about the dunks and what they're like in person. I've played in real games and actually dunked in real games. I'd be glad to fill you in on the details, the adrenaline, crowd noise, and shock from the opposition seeing a 5'11 white guy throw it down
Check Mate
Not many complaints from me on the offense end (other than unnecessary pump fakes -- even that was getting better in the Wake game). Sneaking into the short corners shows a good feel. Not shuffling the feet with the ball shows poise. (Remember Zobec used to be really bad with this before his senior year?)
I was mostly focusing on the defense end.
The end result was perfect? Agreed! For our fans, the way the story unfolded over the season was perfect? Agreed!
But sometimes, you bought a stock and made money, yet the trade was a bad trade. So ex-post perfection does not imply everything was done perfectly ex-ante.
Of course, NCAA basketball season is not exactly getting lucky on one trade. So ex-post perfection here, though not implying ex-ante perfection, does prove that things were done near optimal ex-ante, at least. I am just speculating that is was not exactly ex-ante optimal.
When the end result is a national championship, such an alternative interpretation has no credibility whatsoever.
Please see my ex-ante vs ex-post explanation earlier. If you disagree with that argument, please feel free to elaborate if you so desire.
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Am I the only one that finds it pretty comedic when opposing fans post opinions about our players and they completely misspell/butcher the players name?
Poeltl? The unranked and unknown Austrian center hardly anyone had heard of and whose 9.1ppg as a freshman was a huge surprise? Yeah, shucks, how'd we miss on him?
Hammons who grew up an hour and a half away from Purdue and was ranked as high as #66 (19th at his position!) by one recruiting service? Geez, way to drop the ball, K!
Brimah? The unranked, unheralded, rail thin Brimah who entered college? What were we thinking, not landing him?!?!?
Diamond Stone, who supposedly had some academic issues?
Tarczewski, long considered a KU lean?
Kennedy, who has been ineligible in his time at SMU due to academics?
Damian Jones and maybe Tarczewski are the only guys on your list who are remotely reasonable, and even then, you'd have to assume offering them means we automatically get them.
Fernandez who averaged just over one ppg as a redshirt freshman at Valpo?
The idea that you have any credibility in criticizing K's recruiting is idiotic.
Obi was a great practice player for Jah to go up against last year. If that's the best thing he ever does at Duke, I'll take it.
Marshall is a McDAA playing in his 5th year of college. Chase is a McDAA who is a freshman in college.
Are we allowed to be fine with any player who isn't the best at his position in the entire country? If not, I guess I'm not happy with any of our players, and haven't been since Nolan was 1st team AA in '11. If we are allowed to be okay with such inferior players, yes, I'm happy with Marshall and pleased with how much he has improved.
You're acting as if we're thinking he's the #1 overall pick in the draft b/c he had a perfect shooting night and scored a career high of 18 in our last game. You're being a killjoy and insulting the intelligence of everyone on the board.
Let me stop you at the bold. We're taking your comments exactly the way they look. It is you who needs to recalibrate in order to communicate something constructive and get the approval you seek.
No, thanks. I'll go ahead as is with my very confident conclusion that claiming the coaches did a bad job with Grayson last year b/c his great title game performance was a surprise is ridiculous. Let me guess, though: The four new career highs he has already hit this season will be evidence that the coaches again did a terrible job with him this season if he doesn't continue to set new career highs every 3.75 games or so for the rest of the season.
Andddd there's the dattier that clearly shows he has no clue about sports. Critiquing and looking at ways to improve is what happens every day in sports. That's how you improve. Too bad k sees game film but only sees rainbows and unicorns from his players, then has pillow fights to encourage competitiveness. It's shocking duke gets any calls as k blows bubbles at the officials. Hopefully he keeps up hos emoji's as his main form of communication to current and previous players.
Clearly with you playing game of thrones or warcraft, not sure what you hip kids do during the daylight hours
No, you're acting as if fg% is all that matters and insulting the duke players that actually played a great game, the fans that actually understand all the aspects of basketball and what it takes to win, and you're offending battier because dattier rhymes with battier and he did and stood for all the things you clearly don't consider important in basketball.
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I was talking to Dat, mentioning a topic you couldn't even begin to understand. Dude, just a tip, you don't want to start a battle of wits with Dat, he's going to pummel you into submission and he won't even break a sweat in doing so. Stop arguing with the entire board over trivial BS . I've seen your type come and I've seen them go, you won't get any respect here dogging Plumlee or the coaching staff around these parts. A little positive criticism is one thing, where you're going is just a tiny place called nowhere.