Forfeit and or Death Penalty, What say ye, the SPS?
- Thread starter Indndawg
- Start date
The 100+ guys on that football team did absolutely nothing wrong. Shoot, most of the hadn't even hit puberty yet when this happened. They should not be punitively punished for the actions of others. Fire the folks involved, let the guys on that team play it out.
At this point, I just don't see how this can be labeled a "football program" issue. It was a handful of people (one in particular) that are in the wrong. And honestly, the university itself seems more culpable than the actual football program.<div>
</div><div>Now my opinion could easily change with more information. Remember, this only just came out a couple of days ago. I'm sure there will be more information, and certainly more details that we'll know about soon. Until then I think the Death Penalty and canceling games is a knee jerk reaction to how we all feel about Sandusky. I think it punishes the wrong people and it would only be because we are all disgusted with what a handful of people have done.</div><div>
</div><div>The people that are responsible are currently being punished (except for McQueary, still trying to figure that out). People are going to prison (federal pound me in the *** prison) and the others have lost their livlihoods and reputations. Until something more comes out I don't see why the players, other coaches, mangers, trainers, students, and alumni should be punished.</div>
</div><div>Now my opinion could easily change with more information. Remember, this only just came out a couple of days ago. I'm sure there will be more information, and certainly more details that we'll know about soon. Until then I think the Death Penalty and canceling games is a knee jerk reaction to how we all feel about Sandusky. I think it punishes the wrong people and it would only be because we are all disgusted with what a handful of people have done.</div><div>
</div><div>The people that are responsible are currently being punished (except for McQueary, still trying to figure that out). People are going to prison (federal pound me in the *** prison) and the others have lost their livlihoods and reputations. Until something more comes out I don't see why the players, other coaches, mangers, trainers, students, and alumni should be punished.</div>
If Hevesy was arrested for murder tonight and Mullen & Stricklinwereaccused helping him cover it up, would you want to forfeit our season or shut down the football program?
If this case had any involvement whatsoever from athletes - then yeah, shut things down& investigate. But these are coaches & administrators breaking the law. Athletes & fans shouldn't be punished for doing nothing wrong.
If this case had any involvement whatsoever from athletes - then yeah, shut things down& investigate. But these are coaches & administrators breaking the law. Athletes & fans shouldn't be punished for doing nothing wrong.
NO and YES. Let the team salvage their remaining regular season games but put them on a post-season ban with the Death Penalty starting in December.
From everything I have read, and I've not been able to stomach reading even more than 1/4th of the grand jury report, this was an institutional coverup for more than a decade.
Then there's the report today of the missing prosecutor, as well as the report from the guy who blew open this story a few months ago that the current investigation is headed toward an underage sex service ring with some of the rich PSU donors and the boys in Sandusky's Second Mile charity.
From everything I have read, and I've not been able to stomach reading even more than 1/4th of the grand jury report, this was an institutional coverup for more than a decade.
Then there's the report today of the missing prosecutor, as well as the report from the guy who blew open this story a few months ago that the current investigation is headed toward an underage sex service ring with some of the rich PSU donors and the boys in Sandusky's Second Mile charity.
It is a football program issue... A coach was caught having sex with kids IN a athletic facility and most of the coaching staff and administration covered it up. Ummmm... That is "program" issue. As to the other argument that the 100 players on the roster shouldn't be punished for the coaches transgressions... I agree... Grant full and immediate releases to all of them.
Penn St shouldn't play another game this year or for the next few years.</p>
Penn St shouldn't play another game this year or for the next few years.</p>
They should be able to finish out the season, but the program should be severely sanctioned if not shut down entirely for two years. Sure, none of the players were involved, but the coaching staff, AD, and president were all involved in some way in covering up this monster's deeds. This makes "lack of institutional control" look like petty. If State can get put on probation because one player gets a discount on some clothes, Penn State should get the book thrown at them.
My answers
1. No, but they should declare themselves ineligible for the B1G championship game & bowl game.
2. No, but they should declare themselves ineligible for championship and bowl games.
Followup Question:
If Penn State self-imposes the death penalty or has the death penalty imposed upon it, what does the B1G do?
Get another university to bea temporary12th team for a football championship game while Penn State is out
Kick Penn State out of the B1G
Have no championship football game and keep Penn State
1. No, but they should declare themselves ineligible for the B1G championship game & bowl game.
2. No, but they should declare themselves ineligible for championship and bowl games.
Followup Question:
If Penn State self-imposes the death penalty or has the death penalty imposed upon it, what does the B1G do?
Get another university to bea temporary12th team for a football championship game while Penn State is out
Kick Penn State out of the B1G
Have no championship football game and keep Penn State
but making them 0-12 for next year and automatically giving every opponent on their sched a 1 - zip win would keep balance in the conference.
edit to add:
/The NFL forfit rule = a 1 - 0 (lowest possible football score) official box score in favor of the other team.
//I have no idea how it is done in the NCAA.
edit to add:
/The NFL forfit rule = a 1 - 0 (lowest possible football score) official box score in favor of the other team.
//I have no idea how it is done in the NCAA.
Is any of this **** within the purview of the NCAA?
The wrongdoer was arguably acting in his capacity as the founder of a charity, not as the LB coach for PSU. The victims were not student athletes.
Unless I'm completely missing something, this seems to me to be primarily a state and federal criminal matter that happens to be connected to the University's athletic department. Maybe it has some tangential connection to NCAA regulations that generally address a code of conduct or something, but I'm not sure the NCAA will have much to say in the way of enforcement/penalties.
The wrongdoer was arguably acting in his capacity as the founder of a charity, not as the LB coach for PSU. The victims were not student athletes.
Unless I'm completely missing something, this seems to me to be primarily a state and federal criminal matter that happens to be connected to the University's athletic department. Maybe it has some tangential connection to NCAA regulations that generally address a code of conduct or something, but I'm not sure the NCAA will have much to say in the way of enforcement/penalties.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the football program. It has everything to do with people in the program. This isn't about recruiting violations or anything related to the game of football. Its about several pieces of scum connected to Penn State Football. This is a law issue, not an NCAA issue.
..if Penn State forfeits the rest of the season or only one game, the Penn State campus erupts into a war zone.
The nutbag students who have already rioted gains followers & the whole thing goes into full riot mode. And it will get very, very ugly.
Same with the death penalty: Announce Penn State has been dealt the death penalty & the lunatic fringe of the student body burns the campus to the ground.
The nutbag students who have already rioted gains followers & the whole thing goes into full riot mode. And it will get very, very ugly.
Same with the death penalty: Announce Penn State has been dealt the death penalty & the lunatic fringe of the student body burns the campus to the ground.
Question for the people answering yes to either: If you're neighbor who lives 3 doors down from you gets caught raping 10 year old boys, should the entire neighborhood be condemned and everyone in it be penalized for the acts of your shitbag neighbor?
The state taxpayers are going to have to pick up the bill when this is all over. Big settlements.
The trustees, state, or whoever should suspend football for 2 years. Allow the current players to transfer. In 5 years everyone will have forgotten about it.
Rioting is a good point, but if they want to be stupid, they can go to jail too. This is serious and way more important than football. You can't argue against that.
The trustees, state, or whoever should suspend football for 2 years. Allow the current players to transfer. In 5 years everyone will have forgotten about it.
Rioting is a good point, but if they want to be stupid, they can go to jail too. This is serious and way more important than football. You can't argue against that.
and should be punished for it? That's what is ridiculous. The analogy may be far-fetched, but the idea of punishing people who were not responsible for this is the same.
How about this: you work for a fairly large company. Someone (not the boss) is caught raping 10 year old boys. His supervisor is informed and doesn't take it to the authorities. You think that the entire company should be shut down and everyone in it loses their job over the actions of a few people within the company?
These were acts and omissions performed by individuals, not a program or a school. People should rightfully lose their jobs over this, but the entire program and the kids and innocent bystanders in the program do not deserve to be punished for it.
How about this: you work for a fairly large company. Someone (not the boss) is caught raping 10 year old boys. His supervisor is informed and doesn't take it to the authorities. You think that the entire company should be shut down and everyone in it loses their job over the actions of a few people within the company?
These were acts and omissions performed by individuals, not a program or a school. People should rightfully lose their jobs over this, but the entire program and the kids and innocent bystanders in the program do not deserve to be punished for it.
the program influencing law enforcement to drop the case, to save the program embarrassment, sounds like LoIC to me. ditto burying evidence of illegal activity, to save the program embarrassment. see below
http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf
pac12, but close enough i think.
also, from what the indictment said, he was providing benefits to high schoolers. did Penn state report that? if not, recruiting violations.
or, from the NCAA bylaws:
<font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"><font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"></font></font></p><p align="left">2.1.2 S cope of Responsibility. [*] <font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular">The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics</font></font></p><p align="left">program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual</p>
or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.</p>
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D110.pdf
</p>edit to add:
<font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><p align="left">"For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of</p><p align="left">higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these</p><p align="left">athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and</p><p align="left">responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum</p><p align="left">of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to: </p></font></font><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Italic"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Italic">(Revised: 1/9/96)"</font></font><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"></font></font>
Edit one last time to add:
<font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"><font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"><p align="left">"19.01.2 E xemplary Conduct. </p></font></font><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular">Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration,
<p align="left">the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young</p><p align="left">people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable</p><p align="left">acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be</p>
influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen."</p></font></font>
http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf
pac12, but close enough i think.
also, from what the indictment said, he was providing benefits to high schoolers. did Penn state report that? if not, recruiting violations.
or, from the NCAA bylaws:
<font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"><font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"></font></font></p><p align="left">2.1.2 S cope of Responsibility. [*] <font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular">The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics</font></font></p><p align="left">program includes responsibility for the actions of its staff members and for the actions of any other individual</p>
or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.</p>
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D110.pdf
</p>edit to add:
<font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><p align="left">"For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of</p><p align="left">higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these</p><p align="left">athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and</p><p align="left">responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum</p><p align="left">of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to: </p></font></font><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Italic"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Italic">(Revised: 1/9/96)"</font></font><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"></font></font>
Edit one last time to add:
<font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"><font size="3" face="MyriadPro-Black"><p align="left">"19.01.2 E xemplary Conduct. </p></font></font><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular"><font size="3" face="AGaramondPro-Regular">Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration,
<p align="left">the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young</p><p align="left">people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable</p><p align="left">acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be</p>
influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen."</p></font></font>