If separation happened how would it work?
- Thread starter WestSuburbanCatholicConference
- Start date
We would have won titles if the open enrollment schools were in their own classes... and not talking just football, over the years we have been bitten by them as much as anyone in the state..
Interesting to note that Aledo/MercerCounty's most recent state title came in a title game where they beat Althoff Catholic. Also interesting to note is their 5-2 lifetime record against private schools in the playoffs. Guess he is pissed that his own playoff record as coach of Mercer includes those two losses. TWO losses to private schools in the playoffs and the guy is whining for separation. Whiner.
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What if the kids who played at Notre Dame had to pay the tuition and the kids at Michigan attended school for free?
Top talent would pay $10K to go to ND.. and we both know that not all these kids are actually paying tuition at the HS level..
you ignore your previous statements in which you were proven wrong.
Your analogy would be more correct if the players who went to ND had to pay for their tuition compared to the players who would get a free education at their instate school.
Also Im not sure if you have looked at an SEC roster lately but %80 of their players come from within state, just look at Florida, Georgia, Alabama, TCU, and Baylor's roster.
But you will probably ignore this post and post some one liner like, "Nebraska doesnt get a majority of their players instate..." Idk if thats the case and I bet you dont either but will make up some fact.
Coincidentally, started a separate topic along those lines earlier this week. See the IHSA Class C Championship Series
HHS,
Only problem is tuition to ND is closer to $60k. You try to get people thinking these kids go to private school for free which is simply not true...nor is it true that they go for 50% tuition. Most of these "top" Kids pay full boat. I've got two in school now and another one joining next year, I'd venture to say I have one of the kids you would think is going to school for free and yet I send Naz $2k a month in tuition. This myth of every athlete or even a few going to school for free is just not there.
Only problem is tuition to ND is closer to $60k. You try to get people thinking these kids go to private school for free which is simply not true...nor is it true that they go for 50% tuition. Most of these "top" Kids pay full boat. I've got two in school now and another one joining next year, I'd venture to say I have one of the kids you would think is going to school for free and yet I send Naz $2k a month in tuition. This myth of every athlete or even a few going to school for free is just not there.
You do know that the vast majority of kids playing major D1 football don't pay for it. It's called a scholarship.
Keep reaching
To add to this a handful of boys I coached this year will be attending Carmel next year. And paying to do so. The free tuition for athletes thing is silly.
Scholarships to private schools are available but that doesn't apply to every kid.
Agree. Lots of students get aid, mostly need based. Some schools have "Sponsors", who pay for certain students who cannot afford the tuition. It definitely happens, athletes included, but I would say only those who are the elite, and cannot afford to pay anything.
LCN,
There are NO free rides. People need to stop thinking these exist. You want to have your kids go to a private school, you need to be prepared to pay. Of course there might be an exception or two where an outside agency like Big Shoulders steps in to fund a majority of the tuition but that is NOT based on athletics. Some schools also offer a free ride if you score one of the top 2 scores on testing day, but again this is academic NOT athletic.
It's sad to see the spin some try to put on this. It also gets fueled on occasion by the zealous parent of an 8th grader that "claims" their kid is getting a full scholarship to play for team "x". If any of you are out there perhaps you now see the error of your ways.
There are NO free rides. People need to stop thinking these exist. You want to have your kids go to a private school, you need to be prepared to pay. Of course there might be an exception or two where an outside agency like Big Shoulders steps in to fund a majority of the tuition but that is NOT based on athletics. Some schools also offer a free ride if you score one of the top 2 scores on testing day, but again this is academic NOT athletic.
It's sad to see the spin some try to put on this. It also gets fueled on occasion by the zealous parent of an 8th grader that "claims" their kid is getting a full scholarship to play for team "x". If any of you are out there perhaps you now see the error of your ways.
So I took to the IHSA website to see if their is validity to this claim - nope there's not.
Herscher is 15-18 all time in the post season. 8 of those losses to private schools.
Sorry but your argument at least in football isn't good
I worded it incorrectly. Academic grants etc financial aid wtc but correct nothing is free when it comes to private schools.
All.... He lasted one year at Mattoon going 2-7 and giving up a lot of points before resigning for personal reasons. Ratsy
Once again, ignore and make up facts is your go too.
I understand not ALL private schools do it squeaky. But I have never heard of a student athlete getting a full ride, never, and Im not being willfully ignorant, it probably has happened at some point throughout the course of history, but in no way is it an epidemic in which has created the success of all private schools.
Where did I ever say ALL private schools do anything???
But toss 4-5 kids that aren't paying tuition onto a 3A roster, that makes a HUGE difference..
And I know kids that have gone to Mac that are from homes with a dirt floor, they couldn't afford a ham sandwich, must let $8K for tuition..
Josh Brent was homeless when he was at BCC..
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1982 and 1986... lost to Mac both times, they won 3A.. their guys to this day will say we were the second best team in 3A that year..
4-5 years we had basketball teams good enough to advance to Peoria (or Champaign), lost to a Catholic school...
Baseball, same thing..
My daughter had a softball teammate whose parents claimed she was offered a scholarship at a private school, a few people bought it, most laughed and ignored.
If Ohio State played all MAC teams would it be fair? Same rules, same weather, referees, etc. Oh, wait. I think their players are bigger, faster, stronger and the roster I way deeper. Okay MAC guys, quit complainingg and just coach better
Yes - it is a fair game, and Ohio State is simply a better team. Do you think NIU complained that "it wasn't fair" when they lost to Ohio State earlier this year?
Further, why was NIU able to compete with Ohio State? Maybe because of coaching? Effort? Willingness to compete?
I think you got the point.. one school having a defined area to draw kids from and another can draw from a huge area, thats not equal..
They don't offer full ride scholarships these days, just tuition breaks, up 50% maybe, to all kinds of students, super jocks included. Unless it's LA where everyone has the bucks to pays full boat. It would cause too much dissension, asking paying parents to cough up $12,000 a year when 20 FB players are going for free. Especially if you only went 6-3 that year.
NIU is able to recruit the same kids that Ohio St can... IHSA, thats not the case..
Is anyone really surprised? I mean the IHSA (and I assume a majority of the members) have been trying to solve for the “the privates win too much” for a long time. The multiplier hasn’t worked, so the success factor was added. Separation is just the next step in a logical progression.
But I do think they should also be careful what they ask for. Ultimately this is an issue of competitive balance (or imbalance) and not just a “private schools win too much” problem. Using the “Edgy era” (the last 21 years) and focusing on classes 3A through 8A (1A and 2A are definitely the bastion of the public schools):
· 24 private schools have made at least one finals appearance – those 24 account for 55 titles and 86 title appearances.
· The top 24 public schools (identified by titles, then finals appearances) account for 52 titles and 88 title appearances.
Combined, that’s about 12% of the 3A-8A schools that account for 174 of the 242 title appearances (72%) and 107 of 121 titles (88%!). Talk about winning at a higher rate than the participation rate – but as you can obviously see, it’s clearly the private schools that are the problem.
History tells us new “have” public schools will emerge to fill the void left by the private schools, and the IHSA will still be left with a major competition problem, but won’t have the private schools to blame. What will the “have-nots” do then? Blame Obama? Global Warming?
But I do think they should also be careful what they ask for. Ultimately this is an issue of competitive balance (or imbalance) and not just a “private schools win too much” problem. Using the “Edgy era” (the last 21 years) and focusing on classes 3A through 8A (1A and 2A are definitely the bastion of the public schools):
· 24 private schools have made at least one finals appearance – those 24 account for 55 titles and 86 title appearances.
· The top 24 public schools (identified by titles, then finals appearances) account for 52 titles and 88 title appearances.
Combined, that’s about 12% of the 3A-8A schools that account for 174 of the 242 title appearances (72%) and 107 of 121 titles (88%!). Talk about winning at a higher rate than the participation rate – but as you can obviously see, it’s clearly the private schools that are the problem.
History tells us new “have” public schools will emerge to fill the void left by the private schools, and the IHSA will still be left with a major competition problem, but won’t have the private schools to blame. What will the “have-nots” do then? Blame Obama? Global Warming?
Here's the thing, we've all argued for years of the "fairness" stemming from private and public school advantages. Each has their own set, private schools have expanded boundaries while public schools have free tuition and generally better facilities. Both groups have programs that take advantages of those to create successful programs, both groups have programs on the opposite end of the spectrum.
What seems to be being ignored is that both sets of advantages create the ability for said public/private school to reach a new competitive level, regardless of their enrollment size. Should Rochester have been 4A the past few years or did they prove they can now compete with higher classes? Same to Montini, SHG, etc?
The issue here is not privates vs publics, it's a competitive in-balance in the classes that attempt to judge "competitiveness" by enrollment. That's the fundamental issue, and that's what isn't being addressed by a blanket multiplier, separation, or any other enrollment-centered solution. However rushed and poorly implemented it may be, at least the success factor is a step towards that direction.
What seems to be being ignored is that both sets of advantages create the ability for said public/private school to reach a new competitive level, regardless of their enrollment size. Should Rochester have been 4A the past few years or did they prove they can now compete with higher classes? Same to Montini, SHG, etc?
The issue here is not privates vs publics, it's a competitive in-balance in the classes that attempt to judge "competitiveness" by enrollment. That's the fundamental issue, and that's what isn't being addressed by a blanket multiplier, separation, or any other enrollment-centered solution. However rushed and poorly implemented it may be, at least the success factor is a step towards that direction.
And much like private or non private schools those kids have the choice to play wherever they want.
Sorry it's so hard for you to grasp but maybe the kids that live in the Herscher district don't want to go to school there. And it's their choice to do so.
And they are a better team because their players are better - way better, and their roster is deeper. It would take a fool or someone who knows very little about college football to not agree on that. And that's the point that the above posters A school like Montini has markedly more gifted athlete than other public schools of the same size. Just like Ohio State has more gifted athlete than any MAC team. For the high schools i question, some of it is recruiting, but there are also loads of young grammar school kids throughout Dupage county that hope somehow, someway they can be part of what's going on over at a place like Montini. Once these programs are established, most of the talent flow in by itself. What are they going to say? Sorry, but we already have too many big guys to pay O-line. You'll have to Glenbard East and enjoy four loosing seasons.
I know it was bad but I just couldn't help it after hearing people bash LA for having all those scholarship paid players. Call me naïve, but I don't think they really do too much of that up there
Actually, they do a lot of that, with "that" being offering need based financial aid to athletes and non-athletes alike. Roughly $4 million annually to 30% of the student body.
Here is the point I have been making for a while with all my parents. The publics in the IHSA thought they were so smart. When they went to 8 classes and brought more teams in to the Playoffs, they watered down the product. They allowed more privates to make the playoffs too. The publics thought that more teams in gave them a better chance to win Titles when all it did was make the privates stronger. And if any rational person thinks that separation is going to help...it isn't!!! The privates are going to use the "we get in every year" when the public schools don't to get more kids to come. I'm sure that a kid would rather have a chance to win a championship at BMac then getting housed by Geneseo, Manteno or Phillips going to Herscher !!! Just going to make the privates stronger. Herscher needs to keep using the "grey" area in the rules and get stronger. Maybe more kids with Kankakee addresses...??? Yep, word gets around HHS...even down here!!!! Does the small public schools seriously think that a little school from no where is going to become the Alabama of 3A and 4A because privates aren't in their class?? What a joke!!!! Life isn't fair and neither is sports.
I tell my parents to stop crying and get the kids to work HARDER than the privates do. The best way to shut them up...WIN!!!!
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Meaningless stat, but interesting... Guessing what it says is a 50th percentile private schools has as much of a chance to win a title as a 5th percentile public school
From what I have seen, for the most part the only kids we lose to Mac have d-bag dads... and most of our kids already have Kankakee addresses..
Rambling,
So what you're saying here is that for a school with 2069 real students enrolled roughly 620 were given some type of aid package amounting to an average award of $6,440 on a tuition of $15,260 plus fees and donations. or a net of $8,820 plus fees and donations. Sure sounds FREE to me!!!
So what you're saying here is that for a school with 2069 real students enrolled roughly 620 were given some type of aid package amounting to an average award of $6,440 on a tuition of $15,260 plus fees and donations. or a net of $8,820 plus fees and donations. Sure sounds FREE to me!!!