If separation happened how would it work?

[stonedlizard]

And they are a better team because their players are better - way better, and their roster is deeper. It would take a fool or someone who knows very little about college football to not agree on that. And that's the point that the above posters A school like Montini has markedly more gifted athlete than other public schools of the same size. Just like Ohio State has more gifted athlete than any MAC team. For the high schools i question, some of it is recruiting, but there are also loads of young grammar school kids throughout Dupage county that hope somehow, someway they can be part of what's going on over at a place like Montini. Once these programs are established, most of the talent flow in by itself. What are they going to say? Sorry, but we already have too many big guys to pay O-line. You'll have to Glenbard East and enjoy four loosing seasons.

@rfb321 I completely agree with you here. The game itself is fair, but the competitive ability between the two programs is not equal, which is why they generally don't compete against the same schools.

I'm not denying that Montini, SHG, Rochester and some schools have grown their program to a status that puts them above schools of the same enrollment size (whether public or multiplied private). What I am saying is that enrollment size has proven to be an inaccurate way to classify competitive equity between schools. Separating publics vs privates doesn't address that any better than a blanket multiplier to all private schools does.

 

[jwarigaku]

HHS,

You just admit to recruiting from Kankakee? HHS you have a pretty big Radius too based on that last statement...but that doesn't fit your narrative does it???!!!!!!!

From what I have seen, for the most part the only kids we lose to Mac have d-bag dads... and most of our kids already have Kankakee addresses..

 

[HHSTigerFan]

HHS,

You just admit to recruiting from Kankakee? HHS you have a pretty big Radius too based on that last statement...but that doesn't fit your narrative does it???!!!!!!!

Admit to recruiting????? Radius??? lost me

 

[godfthr53]

From what I have seen, for the most part the only kids we lose to Mac have d-bag dads... and most of our kids already have Kankakee addresses..

Don't they say takes one to know one.

 

[CCL65]

Actually, they do a lot of that, with "that" being offering need based financial aid to athletes and non-athletes alike. Roughly $4 million annually to 30% of the student body.

I think in your anger, you missed my point...again.. By "that" I meant singling out athletes alone and paying the way for said athletes because they could help win more games. "that",I do not think is being done. I think I got the words right this time.

 

[CCL65]

Rambling,

So what you're saying here is that for a school with 2069 real students enrolled roughly 620 were given some type of aid package amounting to an average award of $6,440 on a tuition of $15,260 plus fees and donations. or a net of $8,820 plus fees and donations. Sure sounds FREE to me!!!

Stop! The math is making my head hurt, and it is not necessary. Read athletes and non-athletes alike. And no, they do not base the individual amounts on their 40 times. LA was never meant to be part of this discussion anyway. I just threw it in as a bad joke to stir the pot.

 

[pjjp]

@rfb321 What I am saying is that enrollment size has proven to be an inaccurate way to classify competitive equity between schools. Separating publics vs privates doesn't address that any better than a blanket multiplier to all private schools does.

There is a lot of truth to your above statements. I think separation is going to happen, though. The multiplier and success factor have not worked to the public school majority's satisfaction. The SF does target individual schools much better than the multiplier, as you said. And, IMO, schools like Montini, Naz and SHG would not win anywhere near the amount of titles at the 7A level. The problem? The public school majority is running out of patience. Also, what happens when the above three or others don't get to the title game for a number of years and drop back down? And, once moved up, what are the odds of another private school filling the void (like MCC) in their absence and winning a mid-sized title?

I see separation as inevitable. Past years have shown that suggestions (like separation this year) don't get passed when first presented. However, they have a way of coming back in a slightly different form in succeeding years. I'm guessing separation will be shot down during this year's round of proposals but resurface in a year or two and have the necessary public school support to pass.

 

[Capt Morgan]

Meaningless stat, but interesting... Guessing what it says is a 50th percentile private schools has as much of a chance to win a title as a 5th percentile public school

Meaningless, maybe. Depends on your point of view. It could also show that very successful programs can be built whether or not the schools have boundaries.

 

[stonedlizard]

There is a lot of truth to your above statements. I think separation is going to happen, though. The multiplier and success factor have not worked to the public school majority's satisfaction. The SF does target individual schools much better than the multiplier, as you said. And, IMO, schools like Montini, Naz and SHG would not win anywhere near the amount of titles at the 7A level. The problem? The public school majority is running out of patience. Also, what happens when the above three or others don't get to the title game for a number of years and drop back down? And, once moved up, what are the odds of another private school filling the void (like MCC) in their absence and winning a mid-sized title?

I see separation as inevitable. Past years have shown that suggestions (like separation this year) don't get passed when first presented. However, they have a way of coming back in a slightly different form in succeeding years. I'm guessing separation will be shot down during this year's round of proposals but resurface in a year or two and have the necessary public school support to pass.

Separation would really be a shame. There's a need for a system that is more fluid and flexible in providing competitive equity within a class. The SF is a step towards that, and it's still too early to completely judge it's total effectiveness, but only applying to privates is a flaw.

Would love a system that treats moving up in class as a promotion and not a punishment. That encourages higher competition...

 

[UlbKA91]

Free legal advice for HHS - "Herscher has kids with Kankakee addresses for the same reason Plainfield South has kids with Joliet addresses. The Kankakee municipal boundaries (or postal code designation) extend over school district boundaries. The City of Joliet used the allure of "Plainfield Schools" during the height of the real estate boom of the mid-00s to market properties that extended well west of I-55.

 

[jwarigaku]

Yes Kankakee is quite a drive from Herscher, see below. Looks like you have a radius as well...just what the bus drops off though...no one would ever intentionally move into HHS district, like the would say Rochester or HF or Stevenson or GBW or Waubonsie or GBN or etc...

From: Kankakee, IL
to: Herschel High School
Measure in : miles
Distance as the Crow Flies :

13.277
Distance by Land Transport :

16.784

Admit to recruiting????? Radius??? lost me

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Rambling,

So what you're saying here is that for a school with 2069 real students enrolled roughly 620 were given some type of aid package amounting to an average award of $6,440 on a tuition of $15,260 plus fees and donations. or a net of $8,820 plus fees and donations. Sure sounds FREE to me!!!

That about sums it up.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I think in your anger, you missed my point...again.. By "that" I meant singling out athletes alone and paying the way for said athletes because they could help win more games. "that",I do not think is being done. I think I got the words right this time.

I'm an angry, angry man. Not blaming you, but there are posters out there who are posting out of their asses. They post crap like all private schools recruit all best talent from all the feeder programs in a 30 mile radius. They post crap that implies that private schools give financial aid to students because they are athletes. They post crap that implies that private schools give free rides out as if they would put their own financial house in jeopardy just to win a few football games.

When push comes to shove and you ask these posters for specifics, they almost always back down. It's far easier and more cowardly for them to throw crap all over the place without a care for the consequences. In the rare instance when you get someone like HHSTF (cough cough, consider the source, cough cough) to identify a school, and you tell him that if he has any information beyond hearsay he should report that school to the IHSA, he always backs down.

And, yes, you are absolutely correct about LA. LA does not provide any more financial support to athletes because they are athletes. To apply for financial aid, there are forms that need completing and tax returns provided, etc. The review process is outsourced to a third party for analysis, fact checking, ranking, etc. Each application is ranked according to need by that outsourced third party and returned to the school's financial aid committee without names or other identifiers for award determination. It's about an objective a process as anyone could design.

 

[mc140]

Why does HHSTigerfan end every sentence with multiple punctuation marks?????

 

[CCL65]

If Montini, JCA and now Naz did not exist, would we be having this discussion?

LA - They play in 8A against the mega schools with 1,00 to 1,500 more students. No dynasty there.

Providence - Didn't make the playoffs, and the LW publics are all very good.

SGH - Good but not unbeatable as Springfield is not like Chicagoland

Boylan - Up and down it seems.

Mt. Carmel - Not like it was in the 80's and 90's. Hour and a half commutes may be taking it's toll. I tend to give them a break on that alone

Bishop Mac - Not much the previous four years. They lose Jones and Ward and a slew of big guys. Gonna move a wideout to QB next year I hear. They could be 5-4 again

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

If Montini, JCA and now Naz did not exist, would we be having this discussion?

LA - They play in 8A against the mega schools with 1,00 to 1,500 more students. No dynasty there.

Providence - Didn't make the playoffs, and the LW publics are all very good.

SGH - Good but not unbeatable as Springfield is not like Chicagoland

Boylan - Up and down it seems.

Mt. Carmel - Not like it was in the 80's and 90's. Hour and a half commutes may be taking it's toll. I tend to give them a break on that alone

Bishop Mac - Not much the previous four years. They lose Jones and Ward and a slew of big guys. Gonna move a wideout to QB next year I hear. They could be 5-4 again

JCA hasn't won a title since 2007. MC has won two in the past four years.

 

[CCL65]

JCA hasn't won a title since 2007. MC has won two in the past four years.

I included JCA because if it were not for Montini beating them, I think they would have done pretty good and the Catholic school bashers would be screaming for justice anyway. As for Carmel, being stuck down at63rd and Stony, I don't know how they keep it going. But yeah, if the win again next year, they have to go back on the list.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I included JCA because if it were not for Montini beating them, I think they would have done pretty good and the Catholic school bashers would be screaming for justice anyway. As for Carmel, being stuck down at63rd and Stony, I don't know how they keep it going. But yeah, if the win again next year, they have to go back on the list.

Regardless I think your point is not a strong one. The hatred and animosity within the public school community toward private (read: Catholic) schools is widespread. Public school fans in southern IL hate losing to Althoff and Mater Dei. They don't give two craps about Montini and JCA and Naz. Public school fans in western IL hate losing to QND and Alleman. North central IL public school fans hate PND, St. Bede, Marquette and Newman.

It's the nature of the public school beast. They don't like losing to other public schools, but they LOATHE losing to private (read: Catholic) schools.

 

[Bigshot85]

Whatever happened to friarman? Someone of you old school posters will know whom I'm talking about.

 

[Bigshot85]

And don't worry HHS you will get the last laugh against those evil private schools come the state band competition

 

[OldLeaf]

Whoa and hold on there ramblinman. Don't speak/post on behalf of all public schools and their supporters with such a one-stroke very broad and wide brush with such strong language and meaning that is simply not true. Geneseo has had their fair amount of both success and non-success against privates/Catholics. When Geneseo gets beat and whooped by privates/Catholics we are usually impressed, awed, perhaps shocked sometimes, and usually disappointed. I would think the same feelings and thoughts are reciprocated when Geneseo beats privates/Catholics. But there's no LOATHING or hatred of getting beat or even whooped by or for privates/Catholics. Heck, Geneseo has a large contingent of Catholics in their community and school.

Geneseo fans and supporters have been around and seen a lot of good and great HS football for over the last 50 years. They are quite knowledgeable and wise of good/great HS football. We know when we have a good solid team for our actual enrollment count. But when a good solid Geneseo team gets whooped by 30-40 by a private/Catholic school with half of Geneseo's enrollment....it's a real hmmm head-scratching moment. But not really when we see the numbers and depth of physical specimens with the superior size, speed, strength, talent and athletic ability in full display on the smaller enrollment private/Catholic teams. That's an anomaly as compared to the public school world....and it is one by design......a design that public schools do not have. It's an area all-star team vs a bounded public school district team.

I sometimes wonder what Geneseo could of been or could be today.......and at what consistent competitive and success level......attracting 4-5 very good football players in each class while only increasing their enrollment by a total of 20 from a 30-mile radius including Moline, East Moline, Rock Island and surrounding Quad City towns. Put all 20 in the Geneseo football program and in a Geneseo uniform for 4 years and let's see what transforms and transpires in the short term and over the long term.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Whatever happened to friarman? Someone of you old school posters will know whom I'm talking I'm about.

Although I didn't see it, I understand he flamed out in a blaze of deleted glory several years ago.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Whoa and hold on there ramblinman. Don't speak/post on behalf of all public schools and their supporters with such a one-stroke very broad and wide brush with such strong language and meaning that is simply not true. Geneseo has had their fair amount of both success and non-success against privates/Catholics. When Geneseo gets beat and whooped by privates/Catholics we are usually impressed, awed, perhaps shocked sometimes, and usually disappointed. I would think the same feelings and thoughts are reciprocated when Geneseo beats privates/Catholics. But there's no LOATHING or hatred of getting beat or even whooped by or for privates/Catholics. Heck, Geneseo has a large contingent of Catholics in their community and school.

Geneseo fans and supporters have been around and seen a lot of good and great HS football for over the last 50 years. They are quite knowledgeable and wise of good/great HS football. We know when we have a good solid team for our actual enrollment count. But when a good solid Geneseo team gets whooped by 30-40 by a private/Catholic school with half of Geneseo's enrollment....it's a real hmmm head-scratching moment. But not really when we see the numbers and depth of physical specimens with the superior size, speed, strength, talent and athletic ability in full display on the smaller enrollment private/Catholic teams. That's an anomaly as compared to the public school world....and it is one by design......a design that public schools do not have. It's an area all-star team vs a bounded public school district team.

I sometimes wonder what Geneseo could of been or could be today.......and at what consistent competitive and success level......attracting 4-5 very good football players in each class while only increasing their enrollment by a total of 20 from a 30-mile radius including Moline, East Moline, Rock Island and surrounding Quad City towns. Put all 20 in the Geneseo football program and in a Geneseo uniform for 4 years and let's see what transforms and transpires in the short term and over the long term.

You are correct, Old Leaf. I did paint with a broad brush. It's just that painting with a narrow one doesn't work either. There's just too much animosity out there.

Geneseo is the exception to the rule when it comes to public school success vs private schools in the football playoffs. Indeed,
Geneseo is proof that public schools CAN compete successfully against private schools.

Unfortunately, many public schools have found it difficult to compete successfully against private schools and their response is to address that situation by trying to weaken private schools rather than by trying to get better themselves. And that's why, sadly, the broad brush is called for over the itty bitty paint by numbers brush.

 

[eagles2k3]

You are correct, Old Leaf. I did paint with a broad brush. It's just that painting with a narrow one doesn't work either. There's just too much animosity out there.

Geneseo is the exception to the rule when it comes to public school success vs private schools in the football playoffs. Indeed,
Geneseo is proof that public schools CAN compete successfully against private schools.

Unfortunately, many public schools have found it difficult to compete successfully against private schools and their response is to address that situation by trying to weaken private schools rather than by trying to get better themselves. And that's why, sadly, the broad brush is called for over the itty bitty paint by numbers brush.

I believe Geneseo WAS proof. It's not 1978 anymore. I believe Geneseo beat my alma mater IC in what I've heard was an amazing game. Maybe Old Leaf was there.

I would say Rochester is the school that's the exception to the rule nowadays in the middle classes.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

I believe Geneseo WAS proof. It's not 1978 anymore. I believe Geneseo beat my alma mater IC in what I've heard was an amazing game. Maybe Old Leaf was there.

I would say Rochester is the school that's the exception to the rule nowadays in the middle classes.

I think too much is painted with a broad brush. I'm still of the belief and it won't ever change that if you wanna be the best, beat the best. Coach better, scheme better work harder play harder. It can happen, has happened and happens more often then most on this message board give it credit for.

The private schools have their advantages and the public schools have theirs too. With more and more feeder programs gaining traction in communities all over the state the playing field will continue to level out.

Good coaching and preparation at the youth level will lead to better players developing in the public systems. Essentially the best kids will stay put.

It doesn't mean that many won't but it starts at the youth and developmental levels.

 

[biglatte]

And don't worry HHS you will get the last laugh against those evil private schools come the state band competition

Bigshot 85 that won't happen either because Marian Catholic has the best band in the state . they just won the band competition so they will still complain

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Free legal advice for HHS - "Herscher has kids with Kankakee addresses for the same reason Plainfield South has kids with Joliet addresses. The Kankakee municipal boundaries (or postal code designation) extend over school district boundaries. The City of Joliet used the allure of "Plainfield Schools" during the height of the real estate boom of the mid-00s to market properties that extended well west of I-55.

Thank you Tim McCarver.....

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Yes Kankakee is quite a drive from Herscher, see below. Looks like you have a radius as well...just what the bus drops off though...no one would ever intentionally move into HHS district, like the would say Rochester or HF or Stevenson or GBW or Waubonsie or GBN or etc...

From: Kankakee, IL
to: Herschel High School
Measure in : miles
Distance as the Crow Flies :

13.277
Distance by Land Transport :

16.784

Actually many people have and do move into the Herscher school district...

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I believe Geneseo WAS proof. It's not 1978 anymore. I believe Geneseo beat my alma mater IC in what I've heard was an amazing game. Maybe Old Leaf was there.

You are right; it isn't 1978. Since 1982, Geneseo is 20-8 vs private schools in the playoffs.

You are wrong; Geneseo still IS proof that public schools can experience success in the playoffs against private schools. In their last six playoff games vs. private schools, going back to 2008, Geneseo is 5-1.

 

[eagles2k3]

You are right; it isn't 1978. Since 1982, Geneseo is 20-8 vs private schools in the playoffs.

You are wrong; Geneseo still IS proof that public schools can experience success in the playoffs against private schools. In their last six playoff games vs. private schools, going back to 2008, Geneseo is 5-1.

How many state championships have they won since 1982?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

How many state championships have they won since 1982?

None. And your point is?

 

[eagles2k3]

None. And your point is?

I said Rochester was the exception because they are a public school that has won multiple state championships recently in the middle classes. Geneseo hasn't won a state title in 33 years.

Beating Wheaton Academy, Rockford Lutheran, and Walther Lutheran while getting drilled by Montini doesn't exactly equate to competing with the private schools who are winning multiple state championships.

I guess it comes down to equating success. Beating a few private schools and winning a few playoff games or winning multiple state titles as the measure of success. Not saying it's the end all be all but beating those schools doesn't equate to being the exception.

I still don't think Geneseo is the exception.

 

[RetiredReferee]

What benefit is there for private schools to separate?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I said Rochester was the exception because they are a public school that has won multiple state championships recently in the middle classes. Geneseo hasn't won a state title in 33 years.

Beating Wheaton Academy, Rockford Lutheran, and Walther Lutheran while getting drilled by Montini doesn't exactly equate to competing with the private schools who are winning multiple state championships.

I guess it comes down to equating success. Beating a few private schools and winning a few playoff games or winning multiple state titles as the measure of success. Not saying it's the end all be all but beating those schools doesn't equate to being the exception.

I still don't think Geneseo is the exception.

First of all, MOST football playing schools haven't won a football title EVER, much less 33 years ago (when Geneseo beat three private schools in the last three rounds of the playoffs to win it all).

Secondly, I wasn't talking titles. I was talking about public school playoff success vs private schools.

But, since you are so title focused, Geneseo has been in five title games from 1990 through 2013. In 1990, they lost to JCA 21-20. I would say that, based on the score alone, Geneseo was about as competitive in that game as they could be and still lose. In 1992, they lost to Oswego after defeating Peoria Notre Dame in the quarters. In 1993, they defeated another private school (SHG) in the quarters, only to lose to a private school (Marian Catholic) in the finals by a score of 13-6. In 2009, Geneseo beat BIshop Mac in round two on their way to a title game were they were routed by Metamora. In 2013, Geneseo crushed Rockford Lutheran in the semis before losing to Rochester 18-6 in the finals.

Has it occurred to you that, if Geneseo had LOST to PND, Mac, SHG, and Lutheran, they never would have made it to those title games to begin with?

You are certainly allowed to voice your opinion that Geneseo WAS the exception to the rule when it comes to public school success vs. private schools in the playoffs. It's just that the facts don't really support that opinion.

 

[stonedlizard]

I said Rochester was the exception because they are a public school that has won multiple state championships recently in the middle classes. Geneseo hasn't won a state title in 33 years.

Beating Wheaton Academy, Rockford Lutheran, and Walther Lutheran while getting drilled by Montini doesn't exactly equate to competing with the private schools who are winning multiple state championships.

I guess it comes down to equating success. Beating a few private schools and winning a few playoff games or winning multiple state titles as the measure of success. Not saying it's the end all be all but beating those schools doesn't equate to being the exception.

I still don't think Geneseo is the exception.

You've highlighted why the issue isn't an overall publics vs privates, it's haves vs have nots. Both publics and privates can fall into either category.

 

[Cross Bones]

Why are private school posters here scared to coach better in 8A?

 

[Capt Morgan]

I actually agree Bones. The private schools could alleviate much of the on-going noise by volunteering to play up to the appropriate level of competition. Don't think 8A necessarily applies to all private schools and I also think there are certain public schools that should do the same.

 

[Cross Bones]

I actually agree Bones. The private schools could alleviate much of the on-going noise by volunteering to play up to the appropriate level of competition. Don't think 8A necessarily applies to all private schools and I also think there are certain public schools that should do the same.

I agree, but the one problem I have with it is that doing so would push someone down. For example if Montini requesting to 8A pushed Maine South or Glenbard West into 7A then whats the point? And I dont necessarily want to see 8A be essentially a Private class with the largest publics included, it seems haphazard.

The only way I could see it working is if the top class is 64 teams.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Why are private school posters here scared to coach better in 8A?

Same question could be asked of extraordinarily successful public schools.

 

[Cross Bones]

Same question could be asked of extraordinarily successful public schools.

Name them