Agreed. Well said. All this talk about Laviano's arm strength is a bunch of garbage.
Just curious - how far can't Laviano throw now?
- Thread starter RU4Real
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Agreed. Well said. All this talk about Laviano's arm strength is a bunch of garbage.
If you are trying to make the point that Laviano's success is only attributable to Carroo, well you can only throw to receivers who have the ability to get off the LOS and run effective routes. And yes, Carroo, is one of the best at doing this.
Laviano issues:
1- most of the time, our play calling does not fit his game... We need to throw on 1st
2- he does not seem to ID single coverage and throw to spots to beat it
3- needs more zip and to be more decisive in 2 min drill.. And not dump off passes
4- never take that sack... Look to experienced MSU QB Cook
5- RETTIG is maybe better... Must be tough for both of them
1- most of the time, our play calling does not fit his game... We need to throw on 1st
2- he does not seem to ID single coverage and throw to spots to beat it
3- needs more zip and to be more decisive in 2 min drill.. And not dump off passes
4- never take that sack... Look to experienced MSU QB Cook
5- RETTIG is maybe better... Must be tough for both of them
The title of this thread was also posted by OP in one of the half threads. Just couldn't wait to argue for "his guy" again and needed to start a thread.
Happy to boast that a D1 qb can throw the ball +50 yards. What an accomplishment.
CL played a solid game yesterday (save end series). He didn't hurt the team till the end. But again he was not a weapon. Carroo was so damn open any qb would have got the ball to him on nearly every play save one. He played a solid game till the end. Checked down way too much and never a real weapon but kept the game close and gave Carroo chances.
Did you really feel good when two min drill started and all those beloved "high percentage" check down passes started. And the windows tightened and caroo started getting doubled--Needed a weapon at that point to INCREASE the chances. Just hard to believe Flood may run Retting out by not letting him get a shot when the team is 2-3. Also judging by the defend at all costs of Flood and CL I see (please see above where I said CL played a solid game mostly) boy will we see outrage if Rettig plays and is not perfect and throws a few picks (even though one would expect after 2 years off such a thing would need to get worked out), regardless of the int's, sack on third down and spike we have seen.
Too much personal investment in caretaker coaches and certain players. I have just wanted to see both qb's get a shot and the unfairness rubs me the wrong way. With divisiveness here some will say even that is having an "agenda' or tearing down one. Guess when friends, family or hs affiliates are involved posting they want their interests above all, not the RU interest of seeing who is best for the team. Just gets real tiring to see.
Happy to boast that a D1 qb can throw the ball +50 yards. What an accomplishment.
CL played a solid game yesterday (save end series). He didn't hurt the team till the end. But again he was not a weapon. Carroo was so damn open any qb would have got the ball to him on nearly every play save one. He played a solid game till the end. Checked down way too much and never a real weapon but kept the game close and gave Carroo chances.
Did you really feel good when two min drill started and all those beloved "high percentage" check down passes started. And the windows tightened and caroo started getting doubled--Needed a weapon at that point to INCREASE the chances. Just hard to believe Flood may run Retting out by not letting him get a shot when the team is 2-3. Also judging by the defend at all costs of Flood and CL I see (please see above where I said CL played a solid game mostly) boy will we see outrage if Rettig plays and is not perfect and throws a few picks (even though one would expect after 2 years off such a thing would need to get worked out), regardless of the int's, sack on third down and spike we have seen.
Too much personal investment in caretaker coaches and certain players. I have just wanted to see both qb's get a shot and the unfairness rubs me the wrong way. With divisiveness here some will say even that is having an "agenda' or tearing down one. Guess when friends, family or hs affiliates are involved posting they want their interests above all, not the RU interest of seeing who is best for the team. Just gets real tiring to see.
Laviano played a very good game although the throws to Caroo were far from what you call perfect (Caroo had to slow down a bit on 2 of the 3 TD's). 99.0 % of the passes he completes are to wide open receivers finding open spots against zone defenses which obviously is a net positive. The thing that he lacks and Rettig demonstrated in the 1st half against Norfolk and Conner Cook continuously hurt the RU defense with is the ability to complete passes to well covered receivers. To be an elite college and pro QB you must be able to place the pass where the receiver can make a play despite good coverage. Rettig's pass to a well covered Patton demonstrated exactly that and was very similar to the numerous big time completions by Cook. Those are the type of throws that separate QB's and programs from the rest and until RU has a QB capable of making those throws (see Rettig and Russo) they will not rise above being an average team and program. Laviano has a lot of heart and is a decent college QB but other than a few throws to Caroo and the touchdown versus Kansas to Agudosi he does not even have the mentality to even attempt those throws. Good teams will force the QB to stand in the pocket and make great throws against excellent coverage. Laviano will lead RU to success against average talent but why not aspire to have a QB with the potential to be better than average and lead RU to be better than average also? Right now RU runs pro style offense with a QB that does not have a pro style skill set.
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Prove it. Also show me you dont have the Football IQ of a stump.
Through 5 games ( 1st 4 Starts of his career)
He is 87-124 for 1002 yds and 9 Touchdowns & 5 Ints
He has a 70% completion rating and a 153.9 QB Rating
Also if you take off the Rettig colored sunglasses you will also see that outside the poor showing at PSU, and a couple of dumb rookie throw off your back foot mistakes early on. he has kept us in games. Last night he took the ball at the 5 and lead us methodically down the field 90 yards on a scoring drive that would tie the game. I cant remember the last time I saw that.
IMO he is very Mike Teel like. short to middle passes are his bread and butter, but he has the ability to get it down field when needed.
He is also very Mike Teel like in the way our fan base treats him.
Teel was the best QB we've had the past 15 Years and we treated him like **** too.
You are right about Laviano not being a weapon. He played well against MSU but the difference between he and Cook was very evident. Cook was able to consistently make big throws against tight coverage whenever they needed a big play. Laviano has never demonstrated that ability or mentality. Rettig deserves an opportunity to show if he has that but with Laviano's misleading statistical success, I doubt flood will give it to him.
The logic to this post is impeccable .It has not & will never be visited by our coaches(Flood).They are risk averse & seem to miss the big picture.They saw Cook show what a QB needs to do to win a game & throws that must be made.It will never be acknowledged.If we can beat the lower level teams &
be competive against the rest it is ok with the brain trust (sic)
That was a very impressive drive and Laviano made a great escape from the pocket and ran for a 1st down but in all fairness that drive was also primarily RU running it down MSU's throat not Laviano passing. Laviano is an average college QB with misleading statistics. Did you hear the stat about RU leading the B1G in 3rd down coversions? Laviano's and RU's problem is despite that stat they are dead last in 3rd down conversions of 7 yards or more. That speaks to Laviano's ability to complete short, safe passes and his inability to consistently complete passes of moderate distance in clutch situations.
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You should watch the replay of that throw. No way it was perfect. Caroo had beat his guy by 5 yards and had to slow down to catch it. If the db hadnt falled
I think we can all agree that Mich. State is only the #4 team on paper. This is a team that had trouble beating Purdue the week before.
For Laviano to be effective, he needs a good running game. Without that, he is going to struggle to put points on the board, as we saw at PSU.
Ummmm, Cook is a 5th year senior? Laviano made his 4th start against the #4 team in the country. I would expect there to be separation between Cook and Laviano.
Other things Laviano has not done:
1. Walked on water.
2. Won the Rose Bowl
3. Won the Super Bowl
You guys are hilarious. I am literally laughing out loud at some of the crap you are posting.
It's not a question of experience, it's a question of physical ability. He'll never have Cooks arm.
Laviano had a good game. I think many people just think Rettig may be better and they want to see what he can do? What's wrong with that?
and failing to acknowledge that he had a terrible game against PSU and we got our doors blown off is the same type of troll in the opposite direction. Congrats, you are now also stupid and 11 years old in my book.
Laviano had a good game. I think many people just think Rettig may be better and they want to see what he can do? What's wrong with that?///
Not permitted here by the friends/family/fans of same. See this original thread. He had a solid game. It's somehow wrong etc to wish for a weapon at qb and not at best someone who doesn't turn the ball over and makes the check down. It has to be an attack if you would like to see how that would look.
Not permitted here by the friends/family/fans of same. See this original thread. He had a solid game. It's somehow wrong etc to wish for a weapon at qb and not at best someone who doesn't turn the ball over and makes the check down. It has to be an attack if you would like to see how that would look.
I guess you would be laughing, especially since no one said they expect no separation. With that said, that does not preclude Laviano from occasionally showing a hint of possibly being able to make a big time throw. Obviously he would not be able to carry the team or consistently make big time throws like Cook but to date he hasn't even demonstrated the confidence and aggressive mentality to make an attempt. The youngest, greenest, least experience QB (which he is not) shows flashes of what he will become. To date Laviano has not once made the type of throw that would lead one think he will develop into that type of QB (although the short TD pass to Caroo was a very good throw). I'm not hating on Laviano and think he has a lot of heart and has done a respectable job but with the talent RU has at receiver a QB that is willing and capable of giving them a chance to make some of the types of plays Cook gave to his receivers would be nice. Football has become QB driven more than ever and unless you have Alabama like talent you better have more than a play it safe, low risk - low reward QB unless you are satisfied with being a middle tier team at best.
"A chucker", do you mean a big time throw that big time QB's make in clutch situations? Would be nice to see Laviano complete "a chucker" now and again.
This thread is amazing. Just like the OP states, Laviano shuts you all up by throwing a 50+ yard ball for a TD no less, and you still complain. This is not the week for the Rettig crowd, sorry guys. Can one of you Rettig fans please post his HS interception numbers?
No real preference for me regarding Rettig or Laviano ... I'm just a fan of whoever the coaches decide to put out there and in their opinion gives us the best chance to win. They are so much more qualified than anyone on this board and have so much more information available on their abilities that none of us have.
HOWEVER, since you were interested, Rettig had 41 Interceptions in his High School career.
1.4 interceptions per game in his senior year ( 18 INT's in 13 games played)
See Link.. http://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/hayden-rettig/hS8hQ_TuEeKZ5AAmVebBJg/gendersport/football-stats.htm
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Which is why it's curious that our playbook is limited to largely short and medium range passes.
At this point, the options I see are:
1. McDaniels doesn't know how to scheme for deep passes to get WRs open
2. McDaniels is intentionally limiting deep passes (due to deficiencies in the QB or the OLine, maybe)
3. McDaniels is sending in deep passes, but Laviano is checking out of them at the line or choosing to go to check downs
For whatever reason, we're not really throwing many deep balls - it's only speculation as to why.
There are many problems why citing stats can be non-conclusive. One is that the stats are always selected to prove a point. There are usually other stats that can be cited to prove the opposite.
Here are some stats to consider. In the four starts that CL has, all against FBS schools, RU has scored 88 points or an average of 22 points per game. The defense has given 110 points or 27 points per game. An indisputable fact of football is that to win you must score more points than your opponents. Even if it is not the QBs fault what the defense does, you still need a QB that can score more points than your defense is going to give up.
So with our future opponents equal to or better than the last 4, let's see how RU's 22 points per game of offense stacks up. Here are the number of average points scored by our remaining opponents (against FBS only).
Indiana 33
OSU 34
Michigan 29
Nebraska 33
Wisconsin 27
Army 21
Maryland 19
Therefore with our current offensive production we can expect to beat Army and Maryland, although MD will have a different coach. For Rutgers to have a chance at a 6-6 season and a bowl game, one of two things has to happen. Either the offense has to increase its scoring from 22 points per game to at least 30 points per game, or the defense has to decrease its points allowed to 21 from 27.
Bottom line is, no matter what other statistics you cite about the QB position, whoever it is has to put a lot more points on the board, regardless of what his completion percentage is. In case you have not figured it out, points win games, not completion percentages.
Personally, I think this may be something that HCKF has not yet figured out.
Here are some stats to consider. In the four starts that CL has, all against FBS schools, RU has scored 88 points or an average of 22 points per game. The defense has given 110 points or 27 points per game. An indisputable fact of football is that to win you must score more points than your opponents. Even if it is not the QBs fault what the defense does, you still need a QB that can score more points than your defense is going to give up.
So with our future opponents equal to or better than the last 4, let's see how RU's 22 points per game of offense stacks up. Here are the number of average points scored by our remaining opponents (against FBS only).
Indiana 33
OSU 34
Michigan 29
Nebraska 33
Wisconsin 27
Army 21
Maryland 19
Therefore with our current offensive production we can expect to beat Army and Maryland, although MD will have a different coach. For Rutgers to have a chance at a 6-6 season and a bowl game, one of two things has to happen. Either the offense has to increase its scoring from 22 points per game to at least 30 points per game, or the defense has to decrease its points allowed to 21 from 27.
Bottom line is, no matter what other statistics you cite about the QB position, whoever it is has to put a lot more points on the board, regardless of what his completion percentage is. In case you have not figured it out, points win games, not completion percentages.
Personally, I think this may be something that HCKF has not yet figured out.
If Laviano had a good arm we wouldnt line up in a goalline formation on 1st and 10 from midfield. McDaniels is scared to stretch the field. He lines up the WRs next to the line on 1st and 10. He needs to put the WRs along the sidelines to open up the middle of the field for the RBs and TEs but he doesnt. He doesnt do it because Laviano doesnt have the arm strength to through down the sideline.
Her is a stat for you :
RU's points per game against P5 teams with Rettig at QB - NO DATA TO MAKE A COMPARISON
How well Rettig performs vs Laviano in countless hours of practice time in many different game situations - NO DATA FOR ANY FAN ON THESE BOARDS - THOUSANDS OF REPS and HUNDREDS OF HOURS of practice data for the COACHES to evaluate and formulate a decision on who should be playing QB
HCKF has not figured it out BUT YOU HAVE IT FIGURED OUT !! Another Monday morning Vince Lombardi has joined the scene. Wonderful and comical at the same time!!!
And almost 1 .5 interceptions per game against High School competition? Maybe Rettig is much more prone to the INT when he faces heavy pressure. Unfortunately all the monday morning coaches on this board don't have the luxury of observation of countless hours of practice reps to know how he does in these situations. Our coaches do. End of story. Decision made.
The 40 TD's in his senior is just as meaningless as the 18 INT he had. All that matters is how he performs in multiple situations against many different defenses and levels of pressure, ansd in games situations of the same. And since his game performance is so limited .....our coaches are teh only ones who have the proper data set to make this evaluation.
Our coaches have the information. None of us on this board do. Why even debate it. No one here is more qualified to make a decision on the QB.... although they all think they do.... with much less information. Freakin amazing
Speaking of bad throws, you seem to be throwing the word hypocrisy around without actually knowing what the word means.
Every QB makes underthrows/overthrows....even all time greats. WR's are supposed to adjust to the ball. If you played football at any level (or even closely watched a few games) you would understand this. When people complain about long/successful TD passes it really makes them look like a moron. Sorry.
But feel free to carry on with your agenda.
That's exactly how I see it also. All things considered Laviano is doing pretty well. He completes a high percentage of his passes and has been solid in the turnover department. He also does a good job avoiding lost yardage with his feet. The kid will probably never be great but he's got some game.
I don't know if rettig would be better as qb or not--we heard Chas dodd supporters screaming about how much better he would be than nova and then when he was put in he most certainly did not look like Johnny unitas. Didn't the team lose to a wretched bad Connecticut while he started? But I will say this: our coaching staff has NEVER been good at qb development. Friedgen was shocked at the bad habits nova had that had never been corrected. I would caution fans on here who are so sure "the coaches know better" to keep this in mind. There are few positions, qb least of all, where our coaching staff has ever really inspired a ton of confidence.
You make good points, to which I would add only this:
Ralph Friedgen was one of the people who determined, ultimately, that Laviano would be the starter.
How about escaping that sack by our goal line and getting a first down on that 90-yard drive to get a field goal.
Comparing the first seasons of starting, I put Laviano ahead of any other QB RU has ever had since 2001 so far. The most important quality he has in his first starting season compared to the others in their first starting season is confidence/poise. I'll take that over a rocket arm any day.
Question for the arm strength guys and how CL gets rescued by his WR's where he under throws his passes.
What do you think of Cook's arm strength? Pretty damn good, right?
So, on his big passes, how many where thrown right over the WR's shoulders on a dart and into their hands for a long gain? Or does he actually have a weak arm, under threw his WR's and they saved him by coming back to the ball? Oh- maybe, in some cases, the correct throw is the one where the WR comes back to the ball.
ive noticed that it seems to be something CL and LC have perfected.
What do you think of Cook's arm strength? Pretty damn good, right?
So, on his big passes, how many where thrown right over the WR's shoulders on a dart and into their hands for a long gain? Or does he actually have a weak arm, under threw his WR's and they saved him by coming back to the ball? Oh- maybe, in some cases, the correct throw is the one where the WR comes back to the ball.
ive noticed that it seems to be something CL and LC have perfected.
It's somewhere in the Flood post-practice notes from training camp. He was asked about how the determination was going to be made and stated that he, McDaniels and Fridge would be reviewing, blah blah blah.