the rest of the season starting Sept 12. I thought he was resting until the playoffs. As I have said before, baseball is becoming soccer.
Let me get this straight - Strasburg is sitting...
- Thread starter dawgstudent
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The thing about it is, are they going to continue to do this? Since his surgery was 18 months (or so) ago, it's not like he rushed back and they're worried he's pushing it too far. It would seem that if you are worried about his innings this year then you have to be worried about them forever.
No, he's out until next spring. The Nationals are idiots. If you want to limit his innings, limit him to 6 innings per start and skip every 4th or 5th start. Then you limit the innings but still have him available for the playoffs. Chipper Jones is right about this. You may only get 1 chance at a World Series title.
Well that's just stupid. They would have been much better off giving him 3 or 4 less starts in the regular season and using him in the playoffs than continuing to pitch him until mid-September in the regular season and not let him pitch in the post-season at all.
I thought they might reconsider with the Nats in a playoff run but apparently not. Incredibly stupid. Your franchise has never made the world series and you are going shut down your best pitcher.
Adam wainwright had it about 18 months ago and he's still pitching.
Adam wainwright had it about 18 months ago and he's still pitching.
That is ******* ignorant. Yu finally get a team able to compete for a title and you sit your best pitcher? That is why they are the nationals. I still think if they make the play offs he will pitch
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People pegged the Nats as a pretty seriously playoff contender back in April. How did they not plan ahead?
At least they could have made him available for 6 bullpen innings per playoff series. That would be better than nothing...
At least they could have made him available for 6 bullpen innings per playoff series. That would be better than nothing...
Scott Boras is in the middle of this as well. He represents several of the Nationals players and has made his opinion clear that he expects Rizzo to follow the doctor's advice for his client. I'm not going to argue the decision and can't say for sure that he is influencing Rizzo, but it is a shame that a sports agent has this kind of pull.
I don't like it either. You have to play to win- this is MLB, not Little League. If you have a pitcher like Strasburg and you think you might even have a hint of going to the playoffs, I would think it would be much better to limit him on the front end of the season rather than the back end.
This is also why I prefer the Nolan Ryan plan on conditioning pitchers. Train pitchers to handle a heavy load, and you will reduce injury. There's no way to eliminate injury totally, but you can do what you can to minimize it. I hate the hard 120 pitch count thing- the Nationals strictly limited Strasburg, and guess what? He still got hurt. I believe it was in part because he wasn't trained/conditioned to pitch for the course of a season.
This is also why I prefer the Nolan Ryan plan on conditioning pitchers. Train pitchers to handle a heavy load, and you will reduce injury. There's no way to eliminate injury totally, but you can do what you can to minimize it. I hate the hard 120 pitch count thing- the Nationals strictly limited Strasburg, and guess what? He still got hurt. I believe it was in part because he wasn't trained/conditioned to pitch for the course of a season.
I totally agree with the decision. The days of players destroying themselves are over. Wasn't it our own Bobby Thigpen who blew his arm out setting the save record in his first major league season? Strasburg is too special an athlete to take chances on his future.
Is the purpose not to win championships? If that is the purpose then this is the wrong decision completely. If that is not the Nationals' purpose, then go ahead and sit him, but then I have no respect for the Nats. You don't blow a chance at winning a championship in the hopes that you will win more down the line. There's no guarantee that they will get back to this position. The Nats are idiots anyway for not limiting him early in the season if they truly planned on doing this from the get go.
That was a little bit different- Thigpen was a closer and most closers have a relatively short shelf life. One year they can be dominant, and the next, very bad. I don't remember Thigpen having surgery- but I do know that he pitched until 1996 if you include his time in Japan.
As far as players destroying themselves- the fact that they still use steroids pretty much refutes that. The surgeries have advanced to where they are highly successful- a lot of pitchers say that they throw better than ever after having Tommy John. Heck, some Little League parents have been known to ask for the surgery for their kid because of that even though there is no injury on their own child.
What's the difference between a special baseball talent and a special football talent? The Cowboys wouldn't have sat Emmitt Smith because he was special and he might have gotten hurt. The Colts didn't sit Peyton Manning because he might have gotten hurt.
But as far as baseball, the focus needs to be on conditioning and mechanics- in other words prevention, rather than limitation.
As far as players destroying themselves- the fact that they still use steroids pretty much refutes that. The surgeries have advanced to where they are highly successful- a lot of pitchers say that they throw better than ever after having Tommy John. Heck, some Little League parents have been known to ask for the surgery for their kid because of that even though there is no injury on their own child.
What's the difference between a special baseball talent and a special football talent? The Cowboys wouldn't have sat Emmitt Smith because he was special and he might have gotten hurt. The Colts didn't sit Peyton Manning because he might have gotten hurt.
But as far as baseball, the focus needs to be on conditioning and mechanics- in other words prevention, rather than limitation.
Regardless if you agree with the decision or not... If you have to ask this question you must have been checked out of any sports networks for the past two months. This has been playing non stop on every network available.
This approach is going to ruin baseball, IMO... This type of stuff(along with the "tradition" refusing to adjust to the times) is the reason that it is a dying sport.
Can you imagine being a Nationals season ticket holder going through this? How can you remain a "fan" of a team that puts one player not only above the team but above winning a world title? A whole bunch of baseball players these days have no true love of the game. Hard to be passionate about a sport that the players themselves are not.
Can you imagine being a Nationals season ticket holder going through this? How can you remain a "fan" of a team that puts one player not only above the team but above winning a world title? A whole bunch of baseball players these days have no true love of the game. Hard to be passionate about a sport that the players themselves are not.
First, I usually stop paying attention when MLB comes on but I was listening to sports talk and today was the first time I had heard he was sitting for good. I just thought he was sitting until the playoffs started.
No need to Mark Prior him.
SS is the poster child for terrible pitching motion. He's already had 1 TJ surgery, and while results for the first TJ surgery are overwhelmingly good, they are not good at all for mulitple TJ surgeries. And IIRC he's already had some health concerns this season.
The Nats have him for 4 more years of team control. No way are they risking that. He's never pitched a full season, and didn't pitch much last year. His arm isn't built up to handle it, period. It's the right move. I guess no one remembers how Dusty Baker ruined Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.
FWIW, they did the same thing with their best pitcher last year, Zimmerman.
SS is the poster child for terrible pitching motion. He's already had 1 TJ surgery, and while results for the first TJ surgery are overwhelmingly good, they are not good at all for mulitple TJ surgeries. And IIRC he's already had some health concerns this season.
The Nats have him for 4 more years of team control. No way are they risking that. He's never pitched a full season, and didn't pitch much last year. His arm isn't built up to handle it, period. It's the right move. I guess no one remembers how Dusty Baker ruined Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.
FWIW, they did the same thing with their best pitcher last year, Zimmerman.
The problem is his bad mechanics (the inverted "W"), not his workload or his conditioning. It's just a matter of time before he blows his arm out again.
as someone living in DC and having gone to nats games for 5 years now, has developed into a fan, i agree with the decision.
first of all a pitcher's elbow ain't a sprained ankle or even a sprain knee or pulled muscle. if you push it and play on those kinda injuries and the injury worses, you end up sitting out awhile or having surgery and eventually will be back to 100%. if strasburg blows out his elbow again, you are without him another full season + AND even then it's only around a 20-30% chance he returns to be a MLB pitcher after a 2nd TJ surgery. we are talking career threatening injuries, not an injury that can be healed at near 100% guarantee with surgery and rehab.
second, strasburg has thrown a total of less than 100 MLB innings between 2010 and 2011. it's not like he was adam wainwright with multiple 200+ inning seasons under his belt before tommy john surgery.
third, the nats are built for an extended period of contention. the ntire young core is under team control for several more years. gio, zimmermann, and werth have long term deals. morse and laroche are signed through 2013. among the key parts, only edwin jackson and tyler clippard are free agents after this year. and clippard will be replaced by storen after he likely signs a big $$ deal to close elsewhere last year. storen was a pretty solid closer last year if yall remember right, but was hurt to start the year this year and clippard eventually took the job and ran with it. obviously there is no guarantee for future contention, but this ain't the marlins type franchise, this team is built like the rangers or the cardinals or the braves or any of the other franchises who are regular contenders through a strong farm system.
fourth, there is no guaranteee that the nats win it all this year even with strasburg. can you imagine the fallout if strasburg blew out his arm again this fall or early next year and the nats didn't win it??
fifth, the nats stilla re good enough without strasburg to win it all. gio and zimmerman are as good of a 1-2 combo as anyone in baseball, and edwin jackson is an above avg SP3. and the nats have the best bullpen.
sixth, james andrews and other docotrs recomemend that the OFFSEASON rest of a good solid 5 months is just as important as limiting innings, so therefore thinks like skipping starts or starting the season in may or whatever wouldn't necessarily work if you wanna get a full offseason of rest.
seventh, it's the same model they followed with zimmermann and i'd say it worked out pretty well.
eighth, you don't draft a once a generation pitcher and player and tempt fate with his elbow a 2nd time before he turns 25.
ninth, even if the nats skipped starts or went to a 6 man rotation, there is still typical throwing between starts that's still stress on the arm and all of that throwing is factored in an innings limit. plus it screws up the pitcher's preparation schedule. when working with a halladay or sabathia type of proven veteran horse, you can do that, but when dealing with a 24 year old coming off TJ surgery, it's best to stay on a regular schedule.
tenth, mark prior. and he wasn't even coming off TJ surgery.
eleventh, kerry wood. and he wasn't even coming off TJ surgery.
twelfth, there would be nothing worse for strasburg's arm that to sit him for 3 weeks then throw him int he playoffs. talk about a recipe for disaster.
thirteenth, if strasburg's career ended today, he's have a nice chunk of change from his signing bonus, but if he blows out his elbow again, he'll never get that $100+M contract like sabathia, halladay, lee, hamels, cain, etc. boras is looking out for the best interest of his client AND the nats are looking out for the personal best interest of the player and their long term investment. if you had the #1 pick of a once in a generation player and were given the options of him pitching for you for a little over a the equivalent of a full season (~250 innings) for his career, but it guaranteed you a WS title, or the option of him being a cornerstone player for the next 12-15 years but with no guarantee of a WS title, which would you choose? i'd choose the latter. obviously there's no gurantee the nats would win it this year or that strasburg's elbow would pop if he kept pitching, but you play the odds. there's no guarantee you'll get lung cancer if you smoke cigs, and no guarantee you'll avoid it if you don't smoke cigs, but you are not playing to the odds if you are smoking cigs.
it amazes me that (1) people believe they have thought of some magical formula that the nat's front office hasn't already spent hours debating and talking with medical professionals, like james andrews, about, and (2) that only the nationals' fans and DC beat writers seem to be OK with shutting down strasburg understanding the long term view of the franchise and one of your franchise cornerstones and it's the outsiders whoa re wigging out about it.
first of all a pitcher's elbow ain't a sprained ankle or even a sprain knee or pulled muscle. if you push it and play on those kinda injuries and the injury worses, you end up sitting out awhile or having surgery and eventually will be back to 100%. if strasburg blows out his elbow again, you are without him another full season + AND even then it's only around a 20-30% chance he returns to be a MLB pitcher after a 2nd TJ surgery. we are talking career threatening injuries, not an injury that can be healed at near 100% guarantee with surgery and rehab.
second, strasburg has thrown a total of less than 100 MLB innings between 2010 and 2011. it's not like he was adam wainwright with multiple 200+ inning seasons under his belt before tommy john surgery.
third, the nats are built for an extended period of contention. the ntire young core is under team control for several more years. gio, zimmermann, and werth have long term deals. morse and laroche are signed through 2013. among the key parts, only edwin jackson and tyler clippard are free agents after this year. and clippard will be replaced by storen after he likely signs a big $$ deal to close elsewhere last year. storen was a pretty solid closer last year if yall remember right, but was hurt to start the year this year and clippard eventually took the job and ran with it. obviously there is no guarantee for future contention, but this ain't the marlins type franchise, this team is built like the rangers or the cardinals or the braves or any of the other franchises who are regular contenders through a strong farm system.
fourth, there is no guaranteee that the nats win it all this year even with strasburg. can you imagine the fallout if strasburg blew out his arm again this fall or early next year and the nats didn't win it??
fifth, the nats stilla re good enough without strasburg to win it all. gio and zimmerman are as good of a 1-2 combo as anyone in baseball, and edwin jackson is an above avg SP3. and the nats have the best bullpen.
sixth, james andrews and other docotrs recomemend that the OFFSEASON rest of a good solid 5 months is just as important as limiting innings, so therefore thinks like skipping starts or starting the season in may or whatever wouldn't necessarily work if you wanna get a full offseason of rest.
seventh, it's the same model they followed with zimmermann and i'd say it worked out pretty well.
eighth, you don't draft a once a generation pitcher and player and tempt fate with his elbow a 2nd time before he turns 25.
ninth, even if the nats skipped starts or went to a 6 man rotation, there is still typical throwing between starts that's still stress on the arm and all of that throwing is factored in an innings limit. plus it screws up the pitcher's preparation schedule. when working with a halladay or sabathia type of proven veteran horse, you can do that, but when dealing with a 24 year old coming off TJ surgery, it's best to stay on a regular schedule.
tenth, mark prior. and he wasn't even coming off TJ surgery.
eleventh, kerry wood. and he wasn't even coming off TJ surgery.
twelfth, there would be nothing worse for strasburg's arm that to sit him for 3 weeks then throw him int he playoffs. talk about a recipe for disaster.
thirteenth, if strasburg's career ended today, he's have a nice chunk of change from his signing bonus, but if he blows out his elbow again, he'll never get that $100+M contract like sabathia, halladay, lee, hamels, cain, etc. boras is looking out for the best interest of his client AND the nats are looking out for the personal best interest of the player and their long term investment. if you had the #1 pick of a once in a generation player and were given the options of him pitching for you for a little over a the equivalent of a full season (~250 innings) for his career, but it guaranteed you a WS title, or the option of him being a cornerstone player for the next 12-15 years but with no guarantee of a WS title, which would you choose? i'd choose the latter. obviously there's no gurantee the nats would win it this year or that strasburg's elbow would pop if he kept pitching, but you play the odds. there's no guarantee you'll get lung cancer if you smoke cigs, and no guarantee you'll avoid it if you don't smoke cigs, but you are not playing to the odds if you are smoking cigs.
it amazes me that (1) people believe they have thought of some magical formula that the nat's front office hasn't already spent hours debating and talking with medical professionals, like james andrews, about, and (2) that only the nationals' fans and DC beat writers seem to be OK with shutting down strasburg understanding the long term view of the franchise and one of your franchise cornerstones and it's the outsiders whoa re wigging out about it.
still, quite a falloff for him, from the top closer in baseball to a non-factor in one calendar year. Tragic, imo. Sorry I got my seaons wrong, but the point still holds.
the nats aren't guaranteed to win with him and not guaranteed to lose without him. but they nats aren't potentially throwing away the next 10 years of a dominating pitcher for the chance at a 1 year title run. you don't build long term success by being incredibly short sighted.
i'd rather be the braves and consistently good and in the playoffs even with only 1 title to show for it than the marlins who have 2 titles, but otherwise are a disaster of a franchise.
one last point here, the closest comparison i can think of is ryan clark and the steelers last season. ryan clark (all pro safety) has sickle cell. a few years back after playing in denver, he had to be rushed to the hospital and have his spleen and gall bladder removed due to complications form playing in the altitude and his sickle cell trait. last year the steelers played @ denver in the 1st round of the playoffs. clark could have played and been fine. he could have played and had his long term health threatened, no one was sure what the consequences would be. unquestionably he would have made their D stronger, and the game was won on a long pass across the middle to demaryius thomas in OT. think an all-pro safety wouldn't have helped on that play? but mike tomlin and the steelers management made the decision to bench clark and remove him from the active roster for the game because of the POTENTIAL long term health complications. imo, that's very similar to what the nats are doing here.
not if james andrews and other orthopedic surgeons tell them he needs a good 4.5-4 months of offseason rest to let the elbow heal up from the season of use.
i'm comparing the closest similarlity i can think of. both could result in career ending consequences. clark probably doesn't die if he played, but he might have been forced to retire with more complications.
i don't think you can compare a pitcher's elbow to a sprained ankle or strained muscle, but that doesn't stop everyone from trying to act like they are the same thing and acting like strasburg should rub some dirt on it. pitcher's arms are a fickle thing and a freshly surgicially resconstructed one is not something to tempt fate with. if your elbow is blown, you physically can't pitch. it'd be like telling a guy to go out there and play on a compound fracture or something. and i know guys have played on a non-displaced broken bones, but again, worst case scenario isn't a career ending injury.
a second TJ surgery is only successful 20-30% of the time. and that's just to return to the MLB period, not even considering whether he could get back to his current dominance, that's just getting back to the bigs in any capacity.
yes you play to win the game. however you are also building a franchise that withstands the test of time. going for all the marbles this year could cause repercussions that crumble the long term future for the franchise. do you not believe that?
i don't think you can compare a pitcher's elbow to a sprained ankle or strained muscle, but that doesn't stop everyone from trying to act like they are the same thing and acting like strasburg should rub some dirt on it. pitcher's arms are a fickle thing and a freshly surgicially resconstructed one is not something to tempt fate with. if your elbow is blown, you physically can't pitch. it'd be like telling a guy to go out there and play on a compound fracture or something. and i know guys have played on a non-displaced broken bones, but again, worst case scenario isn't a career ending injury.
a second TJ surgery is only successful 20-30% of the time. and that's just to return to the MLB period, not even considering whether he could get back to his current dominance, that's just getting back to the bigs in any capacity.
yes you play to win the game. however you are also building a franchise that withstands the test of time. going for all the marbles this year could cause repercussions that crumble the long term future for the franchise. do you not believe that?
Leo
Mazzone was talking on the radio the other day, blasting this decision. I'll chose his expert opinion over a fans, or even the Nats.
Mazzone was talking on the radio the other day, blasting this decision. I'll chose his expert opinion over a fans, or even the Nats.
Much better to limit his innings during the year to have him available for the playoffs and then start him late next year to get him the 4-1/2 months rest between seasons. It wouldn't have been hard at all to have it both ways. Protect your pitcher and have him for the playoffs.
but then next year you have him pitching less innings and not ramping up his innings like zimmermann is this year. you also have him losing out on the best coaches working with him during his spring training, since the coaching staff will be in DC by the time he's start working his way into game form for the season. and then you'd have also needed a crystal ball in order to foresee the future and know that the nats would be in the running for the best record in baseball going into the last few weeks.