Making a Murderer
- Thread starter etowncatfan
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Uh, I just started the last episode. So he got the same judge, that told him he was basically a savage, in his appeal? Lol, you can't make this **** up. If it were a movie you wouldn't believe it.
That could've been him just verifying that was indeed the make model and license plate they were looking for.
That's why I've said we were shown only one side of the story. That looks suspicious as hell presented the way it was, but it could've just as easily been nothing more than him checking to ensure that he had the right info.
A lot of similarities to the West Memphis 3 trial. They kept getting the same judge for their appeals that they had for the original trial. Makes no sense.
You were shown 1 side of the story b/c the other side didn't cooperate and because they were trying to show the reverse effect if they presented the evidence in an opposite manner than was allowed in the trial. It was done beautifully.
The Bus drivers timeline should have carried more weight imo, I mean she drives these kids everyday within 10-15 minute window.
Lenk on the stand saying he showed up at 2-3pm, which would be broad daylight, but under oath previously saying 6-7pm-when the log would have been in effect. That's a big discrepancy.
If anybody in this thing is dirty, I say Lenk is in the middle of it. He found the key on the 4th visit, just randomly sitting out in broad view. He knew about Stevens DNA sample-which had been tampered with...
And the Manitoc county guys weren't supposed to be in on the investigation, but then they were everywhere. And the Sherriff coming out and saying it would have been easier for them to just kill Steven as opposed to set him up...smh.
Lenk on the stand saying he showed up at 2-3pm, which would be broad daylight, but under oath previously saying 6-7pm-when the log would have been in effect. That's a big discrepancy.
If anybody in this thing is dirty, I say Lenk is in the middle of it. He found the key on the 4th visit, just randomly sitting out in broad view. He knew about Stevens DNA sample-which had been tampered with...
And the Manitoc county guys weren't supposed to be in on the investigation, but then they were everywhere. And the Sherriff coming out and saying it would have been easier for them to just kill Steven as opposed to set him up...smh.
I thought he may have seen a RAV 4 and was checking for the info of the missing girls vehicle. But he read the license plate number like he saw it in front of him. If I recall it was another 2 days after that the car was found on the Avery property.
Bill how do you know she was originally burned in the quarry? Nothing in that series showed anything to it. And even if your right, and for fun we will, don't you think it's weird that the pictures showed Stevan's room where the key was found before and after as completely different placement of shoes etc? Also in what was a possible murder scene no one thought 11 shells on the garage floor were supicious until Brendan said she was shot. Which by the way he was pushed into?
Also, what motive would the dude have to kill her? Serious MF'ing question that was never established once. Typically motive is a big clue as to how you determine suspects.
Colburn's call came in on novemeber 3, and he stated the plate number, and when dispatch explained it was owned by a missing person Colburn stated the make and year not dispatch. Then 2 days later the RAV4 was found. And I may be wrong on this but originally once found the plate wasn't on the car, or at least that woman couldn't see it for some reason.
You don't have to be a genius to figure 1 of 3 things happened right then. 1- he found the car, 2- someone contacted him with the number and he was double checking for them, or 3- for no reason at all 3 days after she was killed, on a whim, he was calling for an FYI.
Also, what motive would the dude have to kill her? Serious MF'ing question that was never established once. Typically motive is a big clue as to how you determine suspects.
Colburn's call came in on novemeber 3, and he stated the plate number, and when dispatch explained it was owned by a missing person Colburn stated the make and year not dispatch. Then 2 days later the RAV4 was found. And I may be wrong on this but originally once found the plate wasn't on the car, or at least that woman couldn't see it for some reason.
You don't have to be a genius to figure 1 of 3 things happened right then. 1- he found the car, 2- someone contacted him with the number and he was double checking for them, or 3- for no reason at all 3 days after she was killed, on a whim, he was calling for an FYI.
You know what the biggest problem with the Chief's statement is.......killing Avery does not get them out of a lawsuit he had filed. Setting his *** up did though.
The biggest thing to me, and in no offense... The Averys are slobs. Dirty, simple folk.
In no motherf*cking way, do they leave no trace of a bloody murder scene. They'd be more inclined to eat a BigMac on a pile of left-behind human gizzards than forensically clean a disgusting garage or sheet less bed in a piled bedroom.
If **** were glistening, you'd convince me that the defendant were guilty, worried, hiding something....
In no motherf*cking way, do they leave no trace of a bloody murder scene. They'd be more inclined to eat a BigMac on a pile of left-behind human gizzards than forensically clean a disgusting garage or sheet less bed in a piled bedroom.
If **** were glistening, you'd convince me that the defendant were guilty, worried, hiding something....
That's the main thing I can't get past. No blood. That was never explained by the prosecution or asked really, by the defense.
I really liked Steve's two attorneys . I thought they did the best they could.
They did say she was burned originally in the quarry and moved to the pit behind the house. Bones were found in both locations in burn piles. The bones behind the house had quarry material with them.
As for motive, p*ssy. He made advances, she turned him down and he snapped.
Regarding Colburn and the dispatch, even though dispatch didn't tell him don't you imagine it was spread throughout the force to be on the lookout for a missing woman in a 99 blue RAV 4 license plate yada yada yada?
If it had been prior to the day she was reported missing I'd say you and the defense were spot on. Being after the report of missing it could be anything.
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What's ironic (sadly) is that no one can erase the fact this guy was charged and found guilty of raping a woman in 1985.
What's true is, this guy was no more likely to rape a woman than you or I would.
The Branden thing is what gets me and shows how big of a c*cksucker Katz really is:
-He didn't use Branden's testimony against Avery.
-He specifically argued in the Avery case that they don't believe the murder took place in the trailer. That's enough to at least show BS's story was questionable.
-There was absolutely ZERO evidence that connect Branden to the murder or to her being in the trailer, tied up, etc. Anything. No evidence at all.
Yet, he fought for a conviction arguing on two different murder theories. Pretty disgusting, really.
-He didn't use Branden's testimony against Avery.
-He specifically argued in the Avery case that they don't believe the murder took place in the trailer. That's enough to at least show BS's story was questionable.
-There was absolutely ZERO evidence that connect Branden to the murder or to her being in the trailer, tied up, etc. Anything. No evidence at all.
Yet, he fought for a conviction arguing on two different murder theories. Pretty disgusting, really.
My view point that sex was the motive has nothing to do with his prior episode.
Men commit murder for 3 primary reasons, pride, women or money. 2 of the 3 could have been involved here, that's my point when someone mentioned motive.
The dude was wrongly convicted no doubt for the rape. But that doesn't mean he was an angel either. He doused a cat in oil and lit it on fire, the show said he tossed it over a fire and it caught on fire, that isn't what happened. He threatened to kill his first wife in letters, he obviously had issues. None of that proves he killed Theresa, but it does give a window to his mind.
The angle the show was produced provided enough reasonable doubt that he shouldn't have been convicted. But the show was pro Steven, we didn't see the whole picture. That's all I'm saying, a similar show could've been made that was pro defense and we'd all think he was guilty as hell.
Yes but in that segment they also showed where he mentioned the Avery case specifically for something.......and then my kids went crazy and I missed it and never went back.
So, back to Bill for a second, what your saying is she was originally burned in the quarry, which she was knocked out and taken there in her car, once that fire was out, shoveled back up and that was brought to the burn site behind Steven's garage.
Possibly a rape, murder, and 2 bonfire's within a 4 hour window..........and that seems ok with you? Your solid in that it is conceivable over some sex? By a guy waiting in love for his girl in jail?
Surely to god this guy in his life knew where some hookers were, in that town he may not have had to look past his neighbors!
So, back to Bill for a second, what your saying is she was originally burned in the quarry, which she was knocked out and taken there in her car, once that fire was out, shoveled back up and that was brought to the burn site behind Steven's garage.
Possibly a rape, murder, and 2 bonfire's within a 4 hour window..........and that seems ok with you? Your solid in that it is conceivable over some sex? By a guy waiting in love for his girl in jail?
Surely to god this guy in his life knew where some hookers were, in that town he may not have had to look past his neighbors!
Don't think I agree on the other side approach. Lots of missing links in there regardless. I don't think the guy is necessarily innocent I just think he deserves a fair trial and I'm not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt he was the murderer.
Can't just convict people b/c they're stupid and did some really illegal **** 20 years ago. That's the entire premise. They were the outcasts in a small close knit town that had been trying to nail them for 3 decades. But I have zero doubt that he was capable of the murder and really probably had little motive other than just being an idiot psychopath.
Can't just convict people b/c they're stupid and did some really illegal **** 20 years ago. That's the entire premise. They were the outcasts in a small close knit town that had been trying to nail them for 3 decades. But I have zero doubt that he was capable of the murder and really probably had little motive other than just being an idiot psychopath.
Every time the defense would bring up that Avery was wrongfully convicted during the second trial, the response was "allegedly" or "possibly". I mean, DNA doesn't prove that someone else did it and you jackoffs sucked at your job?? Man, still pisses me off.
So are you from around those parts Bill?
The only thing I think that could convince me he did it was that he could have had a level arrogance because of the lawsuit that no one would dare try him. It would give him a little bit of an edge as to a warped thought process that he could get away with it.
There are ways I could see he could have done it, but man I'm not sure how the hell all the extra curricular BS from cops etc didn't bury his ***.
The only thing I think that could convince me he did it was that he could have had a level arrogance because of the lawsuit that no one would dare try him. It would give him a little bit of an edge as to a warped thought process that he could get away with it.
There are ways I could see he could have done it, but man I'm not sure how the hell all the extra curricular BS from cops etc didn't bury his ***.
Just based on his effeminate voice, I figured all along Kratz was into some kink. Kind of made me smile when that proved true.
Lenk and Colburn were into some dirt. It's almost inconceivable that two people involved in a lawsuit keep coming up time and time again in key spots of the investigation. The finding of the key, the license plate call, the evidence transfer, the missing log-in, etc etc. You could convince me if just one of those things happened, it was a coincidence. But not over and over. And of all the officers to be involved in the "coincidence", it's those two.
Lenk and Colburn were into some dirt. It's almost inconceivable that two people involved in a lawsuit keep coming up time and time again in key spots of the investigation. The finding of the key, the license plate call, the evidence transfer, the missing log-in, etc etc. You could convince me if just one of those things happened, it was a coincidence. But not over and over. And of all the officers to be involved in the "coincidence", it's those two.
It doesn't have to be in a 4 hr window, it could've been anytime between then and when her bones were found in his pit.
As for the guy waiting for his girl in jail, I don't think he planned on killing her before she got there, I think it just happened.
The corruption obviously extends well beyond the fn County sheriffs. Must have been a senators cat he lit on fire.
I live in Western KY, all I'm saying is that you can't say the guy didn't do it when you get the evidence from q tv show made to make him look innocent.
My opinion, which I've stated is with what we saw that there was enough reasonable doubt.
But my opinion is that he killed her, there are irrefutable facts, her phone activity stopped when she arrived there. He was the last known person to see her. He had the cut on his finger that would lend to the evidence of his blood in her car. Her bones and vehicle we're found on his property.
See that there are a couple of books, one currently sold out,on Amazon about Steven Avery. Wondering if it would actually contain more information or is just a rehash of the series.
Yeah but what about the validity of the FBI test for EDTA on the blood samples? The defense attorney said they had stopped doing that test 10 years ago because it was inconclusive...but in just a few weeks were able to ramp it up and sneek it in at the end of the trial, which IMO is what really tanked Avery's case the blood was planted.
And also the judge allowed the DNA evidence on the bullet fragment that was contaminated, and therefore should have been designated inconclusive. The bullet fragment that magically ended up under an air compressor in the garage, in which no other blood was found.
And also the judge allowed the DNA evidence on the bullet fragment that was contaminated, and therefore should have been designated inconclusive. The bullet fragment that magically ended up under an air compressor in the garage, in which no other blood was found.
I could have sworn that it was the seventh search, but that just makes it worse.
The judge allowed the FBI expert to testify about the blood vial not being the source of the blood found in the vehicle. Regardless of what the defense expert said, I can assure you that most jurors automatically accept the scientific opinions of government witnesses as true. Nevermind that it was a test that had been abandoned years prior because it was unreliable. Most people think that defense experts will say anything for a paycheck, so who cares if she was correct?
Len is/was an awful attorney, and he should have his law license revoked. Having said that, it's important to keep in mind that it's basically impossible to have someone declared incompetent to stand trial. To put it in perspective, Brendan's IQ was slightly over 70. In our state, if you're over 70, you're pretty much automatically considered competent. Even if the accused has some other mental problem, the government typically just medicates the person until he or she is good enough to handle appearing in court.
Brendan is an even easier case. He can talk to you. He understands right from wrong. He knows what he's accused of having done. I hate to say it, but there's not a court in America that would have ruled him incompetent under the circumstances.
Not exactly.
The same judge was responsible for hearing Avery's motion for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence. This isn't the same as an appeal.
In the motion for a new trial, Avery's attorneys were arguing about how a new trial would be different if the newly discovered evidence were presented. In an appeal, Avery's lawyers weren't permitted to talk about newly discovered evidence; instead, they were only arguing about mistakes that were made during the first prosecution up to and including his conviction at trial.
Avery's case was heard by the Wisconsin Court of Appeals. When they denied his claims, he petitioned the Wisconsin Supreme Court for review. They declined. At that point, Avery filed a motion to seek a writ of habeas corpus in federal court based on alleged violations of his federal constitutional rights. The federal district court eventually denied his claim, and he filed a federal appeal. The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals again denied his claim. Avery then petitioned the United States Supreme Court to hear his case, but they declined to do so. As you know, that's the end of the line.
I'm sure Avery also appealed the judge's denial of his motion for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence, but that's a separate matter that would have been considered independent of the direct appeal of his conviction and sentence.
I finished the series last night. As most have stated, I think the defense did a pretty remarkable job casting reasonable doubt and the State's case was a total cluster. As a juror, there's no way I would have been convinced in order to deliver a guilty verdict on any count against Steven. Brendan...man. Glad I had a semi-functioning brain at 16. No way that kid should be in prison.
All that said, I came away extremely disliking several of the people involved (in order)...
1. Ken Krantz, special prosecutor - No explanation needed. The sexting ordeal confirms my suspicions of him being a pedophile. DIAF.
2. Len Kachinsky, Brendan's first attorney - This guy was #TeamNF in regards to Brendan's case and his innocence.
3. Michael O'Kelly, Kachinsky's special investigator - When the series showed the taped investigation with O'Kelly I seriously thought it was some kind of experiment to illustrate that Brendan was incompetent to stand trial. And when O'Kelly worked up some tears by looking at the picture of the ribbon during (I think) Brendan's post conviction hearing [sick].
4. Mark Wiegert, detective - His questioning (coercive) tactics and his testimony at trial...scumbag.
5. Andrew Colburn, officer - Dude oozed "small town, bigger than he is" cop persona. He would do whatever it takes to protect the Sheriff's Department. No way he and Lenk didn't plant evidence.
6. Judge Willis - I'm not a legal expert or even a novice but his justification for Steven's sentencing made no sense to me.
All that said, I came away extremely disliking several of the people involved (in order)...
1. Ken Krantz, special prosecutor - No explanation needed. The sexting ordeal confirms my suspicions of him being a pedophile. DIAF.
2. Len Kachinsky, Brendan's first attorney - This guy was #TeamNF in regards to Brendan's case and his innocence.
3. Michael O'Kelly, Kachinsky's special investigator - When the series showed the taped investigation with O'Kelly I seriously thought it was some kind of experiment to illustrate that Brendan was incompetent to stand trial. And when O'Kelly worked up some tears by looking at the picture of the ribbon during (I think) Brendan's post conviction hearing [sick].
4. Mark Wiegert, detective - His questioning (coercive) tactics and his testimony at trial...scumbag.
5. Andrew Colburn, officer - Dude oozed "small town, bigger than he is" cop persona. He would do whatever it takes to protect the Sheriff's Department. No way he and Lenk didn't plant evidence.
6. Judge Willis - I'm not a legal expert or even a novice but his justification for Steven's sentencing made no sense to me.
I don't recall any of this. In fact, the government's expert witness said that the bone fragments most likely had not been moved after being burned because such movement typically produces chipping and cracking that wasn't present on the samples discovered in the fire pit.
I say we send in a rescue team to get Randall Cobb then firebomb the entire FUBAR state. Let God sort'em out.
I certainly do not remember anything in steven's case where they explained the murder anywhere other than the Trailor or garage and the burn site being right behind it.
In the end, I guess there is no easy answer here........but there are a lot of WTF's that would make it easy for me to not convict Avery at all.
I truly think he should have taken the stand.
In the end, I guess there is no easy answer here........but there are a lot of WTF's that would make it easy for me to not convict Avery at all.
I truly think he should have taken the stand.
All that was left was fragments of her. Her bones were found in the quarry pit, and in the pit behind the house. The bones behind the house also had quarry material, that means that had to have been in the quarry first.
That's my point about taking too much from the show, they did mention this..once. Probably because it made the idea of someone besides Steven doing it very weak.
My neighbor is from Wisconsin, MFer has a Bucky badger fathead in his garage. Arrogant c*cksucker damn near "went missing" last April.
Look at the people, they look like utter trash, and look at that junk yard they had. Most people that live a life like that are utterly dislikable.
I'm not a lawyer, and I thought like you, if you're innocent testify. After watching this show, unless you have an airtight alibi, with solid timelines a good prosecutor can eat your *** up just like Averys defense punched holes in everything and put witnesses in a squeeze if their timelines changed at all.