NIL bill expected in House would provide legal help sought by NCAA-Update- New Bill Introduced July 25, 2023

AdventureHasAName

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Again, the key words are "individual conferences." Any tacit agreement between conferences would still be barred.
Not tacit; it would have to be an explicit agreement. But not only that, it would have to be an explicit agreement between enough conference members to constitute a monopoly. I'd argue that the SEC and Big 10 membership does not (and cannot) constitute a monopoly of college athletics because the remainder of Division 1 college athletic programs (let alone the remainder of Power 5 conference members) outnumber them.

You have to remember, the reason the NCAA cannot ban NIL is because the Supreme Court decided it constituted a monopoly on college amateur athletics.
 

AdventureHasAName

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It might just work for the smaller (weaker) conferences once/if my expected pro-college sports development takes place.
We're looking at a 40 team "Professsional College Sports" conference within 15 years. Everyone else will start dropping scholarship athletics.
 
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NickRU714

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Just ban it at the conference level. Big 10 and SEC shake hands behind closed doors, ban NIL in the same month, and the whole thing goes back to normal.

And just go back to "under the table" payments by those same Big 10 and SEC schools?
So now instead of all schools having an opportunity (like Rutgers with Ace Bailey) it's just the usual 15 schools willing to break the rules that get all the players?
 

NickRU714

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We're looking at a 40 team "Professsional College Sports" conference within 15 years. Everyone else will start dropping scholarship athletics.

Rutgers is 100% in or trying to be in that conference.
You don't willingly go down from receiving $100m/year to scraps.
 

Retired711

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Not tacit; it would have to be an explicit agreement. But not only that, it would have to be an explicit agreement between enough conference members to constitute a monopoly. I'd argue that the SEC and Big 10 membership does not (and cannot) constitute a monopoly of college athletics because the remainder of Division 1 college athletic programs (let alone the remainder of Power 5 conference members) outnumber them.

You have to remember, the reason the NCAA cannot ban NIL is because the Supreme Court decided it constituted a monopoly on college amateur athletics.
It would not have to be an explicit agreement to be in violation of the antitrust laws. A tacit agreement would do. An agreement between competitors, tacit or explicit, is still an agreement in restraint of trade. (This is basic anti-trust law.) As I said above, plaintiffs' antitrust lawyers make their living proving that tacit agreements exist. The permissibility of the agreement would be subject to a "rule of reason" test, but so too were the restrictions struck down by the Supreme Court.

It would help the agreement to pass the rule of reason if only two or three conferences were on board, but that would depend on how powerful they were. An agreement between the Yankee Conference and the Ivy League would stand a much better chance than an agreement between the Big Ten and the SEC.

Most importantly, state laws authorizing NIL override whatever the conferences might agree to. The Big Ten can't forbid Rutgers players from engaging in NIL agreements so long as New Jersey allows athletes to do that. This is an important reason why the NCAA gave up the fight against NIL. The Supreme Court decision did not expressly address NIL but it was useless to continue to litigate the issue with states like California allowing NIL.
 

AdventureHasAName

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And just go back to "under the table" payments by those same Big 10 and SEC schools?
So now instead of all schools having an opportunity (like Rutgers with Ace Bailey) it's just the usual 15 schools willing to break the rules that get all the players?
Yes, they happened far less than people on here like to believe and Reiber wasn't getting $70k a year.
 

AdventureHasAName

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Most importantly, state laws authorizing NIL override whatever the conferences might agree to. The Big Ten can't forbid Rutgers players from engaging in NIL agreements so long as New Jersey allows athletes to do that. This is an important reason why the NCAA gave up the fight against NIL. The Supreme Court decision did not expressly address NIL but it was useless to continue to litigate the issue with states like California allowing NIL.
If the Big 10 threatened to kick a school out because its state law was in contradiction with its new NIL policy, the state law would change the next day. Even in a state like New Jersey where the state government more or less hates its flagship. The only state where it would not might be California.
 

Retired711

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If the Big 10 threatened to kick a school out because its state law was in contradiction with its new NIL policy, the state law would change the next day. Even in a state like New Jersey where the state government more or less hates its flagship. The only state where it would not might be California.
New Jersey isn't the only state that allows NIL. Is the Big Ten really going to kick out all the teams in states that allow NIL? Is the Big Ten going to take the chance that California (which was the first state to allow NIL) would choose for UCLA and USC not to join the Big Ten rather than repeal its NIL law? (Remember that UCLA's and USC's decision to join the Big Ten wasn't exactly universally hailed in California.)

There's a reason why conferences aren't banning NIL: between the antitrust issues and the problems raised by the state laws allowing NIL, there's too much legal risk. The only solution is federal legislation.
 

AdventureHasAName

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New Jersey isn't the only state that allows NIL. Is the Big Ten really going to kick out all the teams in states that allow NIL? Is the Big Ten going to take the chance that California (which was the first state to allow NIL) would choose for UCLA and USC not to join the Big Ten rather than repeal its NIL law? (Remember that UCLA's and USC's decision to join the Big Ten wasn't exactly universally hailed in California.)

There's a reason why conferences aren't banning NIL: between the antitrust issues and the problems raised by the state laws allowing NIL, there's too much legal risk. The only solution is federal legislation.
The lower court in the Alston case laid out the antitrust issue, the Supreme Court agreed with its ruling, and everyone involved agreed that the conferences can ban NIL. They explicitly said it.
 

Retired711

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The lower court in the Alston case laid out the antitrust issue, the Supreme Court agreed with its ruling, and everyone involved agreed that the conferences can ban NIL. They explicitly said it.
(What's below is much too long, so let me give what in Washington, D.C. they call an executive summary:

Conferences can do what they want but they can't collude. States can allow athletes to have NIL deals even if they're forbidden by the conference and the conferences have limited leverage over the states.

Now on to the details:

First, let me be persnickety and point out that the Alston case did not concern NIL, but rather educational benefits. But let's assume (as is probably but not certainly true) that the Alston case would be extended to prevent the NCAA from barring NIL.

The Supreme Court said in Alston that an individual conference can impose restrictions that go beyond what the NCAA can legally impose: but that multiconference agreements cannot. It is basic antitrust law that an agreement need not be in writing for it to be barred. Let me quote the U.S. Department of Justice:

"The agreement need not be embodied in express or formal contractual statements. It must merely constitute some form of mutual understanding that the parties will combine their efforts for a common, unlawful purpose." https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/antitrust-resource-manual-1-attorney-generals-policy-statement

Of course, it is not practical for a single conference to impose restrictions without others doing the same: kids who think they can get NIL contracts (that is, the best players) will simply go to schools in other conferences.

All those are the antitrust issues. As I've pointed out, there's also the problem of the state laws permitting NIL. This problem would continue to exist even if the antitrust issues magically went away; states can impose rules that go beyond what the federal courts require. In other words, the lower court and Supreme Court statements that federal antitrust law allows individual conferences to have restrictions that go beyond what the NCAA can have do not prevent the states from imposing their own regulations that go against those conference restrictions. Maybe the Big Ten, for instance, could intimidate one state into repealing its law permitting NIL by threatening to kick out the Big Ten member in that state; but it's harder to do that when, as at present, lots of states have NIL laws. As I pointed out, California is especially a problem. States permitted NIL because they became convinced that it is unfair for everyone to profit from a kid's athletic ability except the kid -- it's not going to be easy to get the states to reverse course.

So it's not surprising that the Big Ten, for instance, hasn't banned or sharply restricted NIL: it's just too risky. The Alston statement about what individual conferences can do is not helpful enough to the individual conferences.

Apologies if this was too long.
 
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NickRU714

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Yes, they happened far less than people on here like to believe and Reiber wasn't getting $70k a year.

What does Reiber getting $70k have to do with anything?

So you'd rather go to a system where Rutgers (and most other programs) have zero chance at getting elite players because they don't break the rules - instead of the new system where literally any school can get involved with any recruit. For example - Rutgers being highly involved with Ace Bailey. We likely would have zero chance with Bailey without NIL.

And this is all because a bench player transferred and got allegedly money to play basketball?
Were players like Reiber getting money pre-NIL? Likely not.
But I can guarantee the elite prospects were.

So the system where Rutgers gets to keep Dean Reiber but has no chance at Ace Bailey is better?

Bold Strategy Cotton GIF by MOODMAN
 

NickRU714

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Some barely serviceable backup center is making $70K in college and that seems logical and normal to you?

There are a lot of people being paid sums of money for a variety of things.
Instagram "stars" get paid huge sums of money to use a certain brand of lip liner in a post.

I was offered a free ski hat by a brand as long as I posted about it afterwards.
I have approx 100 IG followers and literally make no impact on anyone. The product cost about $10 retail (probably pennies to the company).
Did I "deserve" it? Definitely not. But that's not my problem. That's on the business.

If someone is willing to pay someone for something then so be it.
Isn't that the point of capitalism?
 
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RUScrew85

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There are a lot of people being paid sums of money for a variety of things.
Instagram "stars" get paid huge sums of money to use a certain brand of lip liner in a post.

I was offered a free ski hat by a brand as long as I posted about it afterwards.
I have approx 100 IG followers and literally make no impact on anyone. The product cost about $10 retail (probably pennies to the company).
Did I "deserve" it? Definitely not. But that's not my problem. That's on the business.

If someone is willing to pay someone for something then so be it.
Isn't that the point of capitalism?

Hey don't get me wrong - I think they should get all they want or can command. I just wish they were happy with playing a game for a free education and being BMOCs. It's just that if/when traditional college sports turns into XFL I won't be interested in watching anymore. I watch college football because its still mostly enrolled students at my alma mater playing other students from rival schools, with all the tradition it includes. Kids who share an experience I had on campus. When those players become paid free agent mercenaries, I'm no longer interested. I can watch better pro sports if I just want to watch the sport of FB or BB.

Now I also had the same conflict back in the 1970s. Baseball's reserve clause was immoral and wrong. And I'm glad it was overturned. But it sucked to realize after that a guy I thought I was going to see on my team for his whole career could now walk away when his contract was over.

I understand your point, that I am making subtle maybe even arbitrary determinations of what I do and don't support. And yeah I am. And this pro-college free agency athletics has no appeal to me. If I just want to watch a sport, like I said above the pros are a better choice. If I want to watch the team of students from my alma mater grow over their careers, well we don't really have that anymore - or won't for much longer. We'll have pro athletes who are wearing Rutgers for a season, maybe, because can't risk a draft or transfer opportunity on a meaningless bowl game (and what other games as this progresses).
 

RUScrew85

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Hey don't get me wrong - I think they should get all they want or can command. I just wish they were happy with playing a game for a free education and being BMOCs. It's just that if/when traditional college sports turns into XFL I won't be interested in watching anymore. I watch college football because its still mostly enrolled students at my alma mater playing other students from rival schools, with all the tradition it includes. Kids who share an experience I had on campus. When those players become paid free agent mercenaries, I'm no longer interested. I can watch better pro sports if I just want to watch the sport of FB or BB.

Now I also had the same conflict back in the 1970s. Baseball's reserve clause was immoral and wrong. And I'm glad it was overturned. But it sucked to realize after that a guy I thought I was going to see on my team for his whole career could now walk away when his contract was over.

I understand your point, that I am making subtle maybe even arbitrary determinations of what I do and don't support. And yeah I am. And this pro-college free agency athletics has no appeal to me. If I just want to watch a sport, like I said above the pros are a better choice. If I want to watch the team of students from my alma mater grow over their careers, well we don't really have that anymore - or won't for much longer. We'll have pro athletes who are wearing Rutgers for a season, maybe, because can't risk a draft or transfer opportunity on a meaningless bowl game (and what other games as this progresses).

Re-reading this it looks like I want the players to be the only party in an industry that makes billions via TV and sponsorships to not get their fair share. And as I said above I realize that's unfair and I support them getting paid. I also realize there is no way to get the money out of college sports and even that probably isn't a good thing.

But (especially me) paying them money to the to play for the school while not honoring multi-year commitments to their school is just not college sports to me anymore - as I described above.

I guess the whole thing has been moving towards this since ESPN and rich boosters and even before.

Eventually this guy will just play more golf and watch less college sports.
 
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cicero grimes

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I am actually waiting for the professional sports that have salary caps to start asking their fans to form nil collectives as a way to circumvent the salary cap.
I can't wait for the privilege of paying for season tickets and then being asked to pay for the players as well.
 

NickRU714

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I am actually waiting for the professional sports that have salary caps to start asking their fans to form nil collectives as a way to circumvent the salary cap.
I can't wait for the privilege of paying for season tickets and then being asked to pay for the players as well.

You literally just described buying Rutgers season tickets.

You have to pay for the tickets and then pay a "mandatory donatation" of additional money to pay for the player scholarships.

And then you (we, the fanbase) gets guilted into donating even more to paper over the AD mistakes:
"We want to fire the coach but we guaranteed all this money we don't have and can't afford it. The fans need to donate to cover the buy out or else we're stuck being bad. Stuck with the bad decision I made in the first place."
 
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cicero grimes

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You literally just described buying Rutgers season tickets.

You have to pay for the tickets and then pay a "mandatory donatation" of additional money to pay for the player scholarships.

And then you (we, the fanbase) gets guilted into donating even more to paper over the AD mistakes:
"We want to fire the coach but we guaranteed all this money we don't have and can't afford it. The fans need to donate to cover the buy out or else we're stuck being bad. Stuck with the bad decision I made in the first place."
Yes and now we have the added pressure of saying if we don't contribute to the nil collective all our good players will leave. I am ready to just buy a parking pass on line go to the tailgate and not even worry about the games. Sad since my first game was 1980 but getting past the point of caring.
 

Retired711

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Note that under this bill the NCAA would not be writing the rules regulating boosters, collectives, and endorsement contracts. -- rather there would be a new federal administrative agency that would do that. That's especially remarkable because this is a bill sponsored by a Republican -- that is, by someone who doesn't usually have any liking for governmental regulation. He obviously doesn't trust the NCAA to write good rules. Note also that the sponsor is the chair of the subcommittee that handles this kind of legislation, so he's not just any Tom, Dick, or Harry.

This kind of legislation was also introduced in the last Congress. As the story says, Democrats opposed it because they wanted more health and educational benefits for athletes and to tighten Title IX's gender equity provisions. If there is a bill, there will have to be compromise between Democrats and Republicans. That didn't happen in the last Congress -- perhaps by some chance it will happen in this Congress.

For your convenience, I have reprinted the article link that was in the OP. https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ts-nil-bill-big-changes-expected/70246101007/
 
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mdk02

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If there is a bill, there will have to be compromise between Democrats and Republicans. That didn't happen in the last Congress -- perhaps by some chance it will happen in this Congress.

Yeah, and all it takes is a dollar and a dream.
 

Knight Shift

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If there is a bill, there will have to be compromise between Democrats and Republicans. That didn't happen in the last Congress -- perhaps by some chance it will happen in this Congress.
In other words, not gonna happen.

Funny thing, I was having a friendly political discussion with a colleague (that is actually possible) who was railing against the Republicans being the party of letting the government control what people do. This obviously depends on the issue at hand, but I could not disagree with him.

Without deep thought and analysis, my first thought is that since Title IX is implicated, federal government oversight may be warranted here.
 

mikebal9

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Yes and now we have the added pressure of saying if we don't contribute to the nil collective all our good players will leave. I am ready to just buy a parking pass on line go to the tailgate and not even worry about the games. Sad since my first game was 1980 but getting past the point of caring.
This is a sad post. Coincidentally, earlier today I broke the news to my group that I'm out. We went from 9 to 3, and now there are 2. I have no interest in the team anymore, NIL is out of control, and with a group of 3, the tailgates aren't even fun anymore. I've had my ticket since 1995. Sad day for me.
 

cicero grimes

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This is a sad post. Coincidentally, earlier today I broke the news to my group that I'm out. We went from 9 to 3, and now there are 2. I have no interest in the team anymore, NIL is out of control, and with a group of 3, the tailgates aren't even fun anymore. I've had my ticket since 1995. Sad day for me.
Our group has shrunk dramatically as well. College football is killing itself.
 
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Knight Shift

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This is a sad post. Coincidentally, earlier today I broke the news to my group that I'm out. We went from 9 to 3, and now there are 2. I have no interest in the team anymore, NIL is out of control, and with a group of 3, the tailgates aren't even fun anymore. I've had my ticket since 1995. Sad day for me.

Our group has shrunk dramatically as well. College football is killing itself.
Questions for both of you. Is it because of NIL, RU being subpar, or a combination? If RU was performing better on the field, would the people who "quit" have stayed?

For us, my wife and I enjoy going to the games together. It is 6 or 7 (more when we travel) scheduled weekend dates each year.
 

mikebal9

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Questions for both of you. Is it because of NIL, RU being subpar, or a combination? If RU was performing better on the field, would the people who "quit" have stayed?

For us, my wife and I enjoy going to the games together. It is 6 or 7 (more when we travel) scheduled weekend dates each year.
Can only speak for myself. It honestly has more to do with RU's performance than anything. That shrunk our group and, at the same time, my interest decreased. Even when we were bad in the past, I had a fun Saturday with 5 to 8 friends. Now, hanging out with one guy and his kids just isn't enough to get me to go watch a 35-10 snoozefest. NIL is annoying, but I'd still attend if I had a reason to.
 
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Retired711

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In other words, not gonna happen.

Funny thing, I was having a friendly political discussion with a colleague (that is actually possible) who was railing against the Republicans being the party of letting the government control what people do. This obviously depends on the issue at hand, but I could not disagree with him.

Without deep thought and analysis, my first thought is that since Title IX is implicated, federal government oversight may be warranted here.
I should have mentioned that there is another issue between Democrats and Republicans -- whether to give the NCAA antitrust protection. If Congress does that, as this bill provides, then the NCAA can enforce whatever rules the federal agency makes.

The failure of Congress so far to pass NIL legislation is certainly a strong indication that a bill won't pass this Congress either. But if the NCAA desperately wants a bill, it will do its best to broker a deal.
 
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fg7321

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The Supreme Court explicitly said the conferences could ban it individually.
yes but you cant get together with the SEC and wink wink ban NIL that is classic AntiTrust. What could happen is that the B1G comes out and says they will not allow NIL. Then the SEC could follow much like whn an airline announces a price increase on a specific route and then suddenly all airlines are doing the same
 

cicero grimes

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Questions for both of you. Is it because of NIL, RU being subpar, or a combination? If RU was performing better on the field, would the people who "quit" have stayed?

For us, my wife and I enjoy going to the games together. It is 6 or 7 (more when we travel) scheduled weekend dates each year.
Ash killed off a lot of our group I think. NIL and the idea that it is now my responsibility to not only pay for the season tickets but to pay the players salaries as well is killing me off.
 
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Retired711

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Knight Shift

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It's interesting that he talks about a salary cap. That's possible in the NFL because there's collective bargaining between owners and union comprised of players who are considered employees. Will the same model come to apply to college athletes? We'll see what the future brings.
I agree with Coach that NIL went from zero to infinite in no time with no guard rails. It's the wild west right now.