Have you ever played a course where the PGA (or LIV) plays? Over the years I have played Montery Penninsula CC , TPC Scottsdale (-2 over the last 4 holes!), TPC Tampa Bay (boring course), Trump Bedminster many times, Saucon Valley (Senior Open played there), TPC Harding Park (another boring course with no memorable holes) & Caves Valley (BMW Championship). Have a feeling I'm missing 1 or 2 though.
OT: 2023 Golf Thread
- Thread starter Knightmoves
- Start date
Oakmont
Baltusrol - Lower
Whistling Straits - Straits Course
Pebble Beach
Spyglass
Merion East
Firestone South
Pinehurst #2
Aronimink
Royal Portrush (British Open)
Kiawah Island - Ocean
Congressional
TPC Avenel
The logistics make it nearly impossible. LIV has event requirements. So does the PGA Tour. So how do you meet the number of required events on both tours? You can't. Guys would have to play like 25+ events a year.
What LIV guys want is to play their LIV events and cash that money and then show up for a small handful of big events on the PGA Tour. They want their cake and to eat it too.
You are overstating the number of players the Tour really misses. Sure, Smith and DJ and Koepka were big losses but the other guys aren't that big of a loss. Niemann? Nice young player but people weren't showing up at events or tuning into the TV to watch Niemann. Or Schwartzel.
LIV came about simply because Norman has had his *** in a grinder over the PGA Tour since they killed his world tour in the 90s. He knew he couldn't just recreate the Tour so he had to come up with this whole team concept thing and found a willing partner in the Saudis to fund his vendetta against the PGAT.
Or Wolff, Anser, Varner, Periera, and Steele. Wolff looked like he was getting there but his internal demons got the best of him. LIV may have been the best thing for him in many ways
Yeah, but that goes for most guys on the PGA Tour as well. Maybe there are 10 guys that actually draw fans to come to the tournament (ex. Woods, Rory, Spieth, Rahm, etc.). It's debatable whether guys like JT, Morikawa, etc. actually draw fans if they were the only big names in the field. People just go to drink and have fun. If they see a star, more power to them. Let hope LIV tanks and next year gets back to normal.
I agree Wolff is better for LIV. However we are just discussing some LIV names I pulled out of a hat. If we went through a list of PGA Tour players it would be way more names that nobody cares about. For example, Harris English is a nice guy but would you actually go to a tournament to see him. There are another 100+ similar to him on the tour.
One thing I see a problem with is to bring them back, you have to dump some players currently on the tour. That's terribly unfair. I could see accepting major winners in say, the last 5 years, but perhaps everyone else would need qualify in a Korn Ferry type event.
I agree with that. I would not want to see all back anyway. Maybe 10-15. Most of the Euro guys are too old or would be better suited for the DP or Senior tours. I definitely don't want guys like Sergio or Reed back.
For the guys that left for LIV, they would need to earn their way back (whether it be a criteria like major winners or they have to qualify like everyone else). I get most would not want to play on Korn Ferry, but the younger guys would have no choice.
When I say Korn Ferry I mean something like their end of year 3 tourney series to get your big boy tour card.
Certainly so it's peculiar to argue that the PGA misses a guy like Niemann or Schwartzel when there are already a bunch of guys like that already on the tour. The loss was the bigger names, which can likely be counted on one hand.
Guys like Niemann or Schwartel (major winner) at least adds more to that middle of the pack with potential to win. Overall gives the tour more depth/guys that can win. They were just replaced with guys that sit at/below the money line.
For the people that endlessly say the LIV will run out of money the LIV says hold my beer!
That is mostly true for regular courses but for the pros it is very common for courses with more than 18 holes to mix and match (ex. Ridgewood & Upper Montclair around here) based on routing. Also I know of a few courses that swapped their front and back nines for various reasons.
LOL, they signed a deal with a golf course for 6 years.
That's not worth much and doesn't prove LIV is gonna fund this for 6 more years, especially if the franchise model they are banking on fails.
That essentiallysports site has started popping up in my feed lately. All of their headlines are total clickbait.
even the article said
This deal probably goes to show that LIV Golf is here to stay for the long run and has a firm future planned in mind.
LOL
I mean sure, they "plan" on it being around in 6 years. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. I have to think that if the franchise concept doesn't get off the ground in the next year or so and/or the TV deals don't get better, this thing likely won't make it 6 years.
Then again, LIV loves gaslighting people. Just yesterday Norman said that there are a bunch of guys that want to join LIV but they can't take them until relegation it set up given contracts guys have. They don't have the spots for them. I struggle to take a claim like that seriously as they are fighting for eyeballs and ratings. They couldn't take Rahm and Scheffler if they wanted to come because they are locked into letting Chase Koepka and Dean Burmester have contracts?
All the pros on a mixed set up are playing the same course and routing as intended 1-18. The course is telling the same story. Starting at 17 at Sawgrass and playing to hole 16 is a very different story than a person playing the routing as intended 1-18.
The only way forward for LIV is to spend more money and get more players. At some point, we'll all have to pay attention if they get half the best players or more. They've spent a boatload and no one is watching. What will they do? It is the Saudi's so maybe they double down.
While the PGA Tour will be at the Zurich Classic in New Orleans this week, I will be attending the local Korn Ferry tour event on Friday in Lakewood Ranch, FL.
Planning to follow former RU player Chris Gotterup at his 9am tee time. I’ve seen him briefly on tv in the past and looking forward to seeing him play a great course that I’ve played many times in the past.Hoping that he has a breakout week.
Planning to follow former RU player Chris Gotterup at his 9am tee time. I’ve seen him briefly on tv in the past and looking forward to seeing him play a great course that I’ve played many times in the past.Hoping that he has a breakout week.
How much do you tip a forecaddie at a high level public course like Pebble, Shadow Creek, Streamsong, etc.
Not carrying the clubs, but giving the lines on where to hit, keeping track of the shots, reading the greens (huge help!), etc.
One caddie per foresome.
Not carrying the clubs, but giving the lines on where to hit, keeping track of the shots, reading the greens (huge help!), etc.
One caddie per foresome.
Pebble recommends $30-50 tip per bag for a forecaddie, I believe. I think we paid $40-50 per bag at Streamsong.
If you are going to have some side action $$ with your playing partners then triple what the others agree to give. So the forecaddie will sprinkle in some wrong guidence to them at critical moments in your round. Oldest trick in the book, lol.
For all of you that buy new clubs every few years....
Those are the only two I played. We played it while Black was under construction. My dad went back and said honestly, it was OK. But I think he said part of the problem was he built it up in his head to be so awesome that it was always going to fall flat for him.
I enjoyed Blue and Red. The one issue I had was we played it in June and it was hot. Real hot.
Its a 10 year old model... not an actual 10 year old club. With the amount of balls these guys hit, if it was the same clubs, they would be falling apart with not a single groove left on the faces.
Still odd though since in one line it says he's looking for the "advantage", but clubs from 10 years ago are not using the best technology, science, etc as today. I understand the comfort factor and removing the variables. but again, with the number of balls these guys hit, he should be real comfortable with new clubs pretty quick. I got new clubs 2 years ago and gained back about a club and a half of distance. Took me all of about 2 rounds to get used to them.
Valid question that I don't have an answer to. Went from Titleist AP1 to Titleist T300. Still hit a very high ball and haven't noticed any significant lowering of my ball flight.
Unless you are playing blades, lofts really haven't changed in 20 years across a manufacturers line. For example, I just got fitted back in January for Mizuno Pro 223's. The fitter initially told me the lofts would be weaker (closer to the old days where a PW was 48). However, they were only 1 degree weaker than a set I bought 20 years ago (MX-23's and still were playing until recently). TaylorMade and Callaway love playing with the lofts (ex. the Callaway Apex Forged PW is 43). That is essentially a traditional 9 iron. The manufacturers need to realize distance isn't everything. The correct shaft and less dispersion will make you a better player. Getting fitted is the key.
MIZUNO PRO 223 SPECIFICATION
| Club # | Loft ° | Lie Angle | Offset (inch) | Length (inch) |
| 4 | 22 | 60 | 0.138 | 38.5 |
| 5 | 25 | 60.5 | 0.134 | 38 |
| 6 | 28 | 61 | 0.13 | 37.5 |
| 7 | 32 | 61.5 | 0.122 | 37 |
| 8 | 36 | 62 | 0.114 | 36.5 |
| 9 | 41 | 62.5 | 0.106 | 36 |
PW | 46 | 63 | 0.098 | 35.5 |
GW | 51 | 63 | 0.094 | 35.25 |
Mizuno MX-23 (2003)
| ron | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | PW |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Loft(°) | 20 | 23 | 26 | 29 | 33 | 37 | 41 | 46 |
| Lie(°) | 59.5 | 60.0 | 60.5 | 61.0 | 61.5 | 62.0 | 62.5 | 63.0 |
| Length(") | 38.75 | 38.25 | 37.75 | 37.25 | 36.75 | 36.25 | 35.75 | 35.25 |
Mizuno MP-33 (Traditional Lofts)
| Iron | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | PW |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Loft(°) | 16 | 19 | 22 | 25 | 28 | 32 | 36 | 40 | 44 | 48 |
| Lie(°) | 57 | 57.5 | 58 | 58.5 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 62.5 | 63 |
| Length(")1 | 39.75 | 39.25 | 38.75 | 38.25 | 37.75 | 37.25 | 36.75 | 36.25 | 35.75 | 35.25 |
Callaway Apex Forged
MENS 2021 APEX IRONS PRODUCT SPECS
| NAME | LOFT | AVAILABILITY | STANDARD LENGTH | LIE | OFFSET (MM) | GRAPHITE SWING WEIGHT | STEEL SWING WEIGHT |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| #3 | 19° | RH / LH | 39.00" | 60.0° | 5.08 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| #4 | 21° | RH / LH | 38.50" | 60.5° | 4.57 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| #5 | 23.5° | RH / LH | 38.00" | 61.0° | 4.06 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| #6 | 26.5° | RH / LH | 37.50" | 61.5° | 3.56 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| #7 | 30.5° | RH / LH | 37.00" | 62.0° | 3.05 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| #8 | 34.5° | RH / LH | 36.50" | 62.5° | 2.79 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| #9 | 38.5° | RH / LH | 36.00" | 63.0° | 2.67 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| PW | 43° | RH / LH | 35.75" | 63.5° | 2.54 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
| AW | 48° | RH / LH | 35.50" | 63.5° | 2.41 | D0 (LGT & REG); D1 (STIFF) | D2 |
Not my experience. The manufacturers played a game in mid to late 2000’s where they made their more forgiving models stronger to give the impression they were “game improving”. There were many models that made irons 3-5 degrees stronger across the board.
I played mizunos for years and what was listed and what the fitters measured while in the vice were off by 3 degrees from stated specs.
Play ap2’s and my p is 48 your mizuno spec above is 46. So not all clubs specs are created equally. That’s why when discussing what club travels what distance doesn’t make sense any more because of the disparity. Angle is more appropriate.
Which AP2's? Nice clubs. I have played the forged in the past. Also, I was comparing models across the same manufacturer. I was looking at the specs on Titleist's site and most years are 46 PW. Here is an example of 718 AP2's. I was also just looking at their T200/300's and PW is 43. T400 is 38. What a joke. Just a way to sell more Vokey wedges (which I am a fan by the way).
718 IRON SPECIFICATIONS
| LOFT | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | P | W | W2 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| AP1 | - | - | 21° | 24° | 27° | 30° | 34° | 38° | 43° | 48° | 53° |
| AP3 | - | 19° | 22° | 25° | 28° | 31° | 35° | 39° | 43° | 48° | - |
| AP2 | - | 21° | 24° | 27° | 30° | 34° | 38° | 42° | 46° | 50° | - |
Agreed. They are stroking egos at the “game improvement” level and forcing people to buy more wedges at the players level. Mine are 718’s. I forgot I had my loft adjusted to 48 from 46 to keep my wedges in line. 48-52-56.
One thing people should learn is to have their lofts checked. Because as you said fitting is key. But what is on the spec sheet and what arrives at the club fitter are not the same. So if you are relying on someone to assemble without checking loft angles you are up ***** creek.