OT: Baseball Free Agents

IGNORE

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Mystery team is code for "I'm an agent and I need leverage to get the publicly known team to up their offer"

Mystery teams don't exist. Social media makes it just about impossible to keep info secret.

Well, pitchers and catchers report is starting to happen. Don’t Machado and Harper need to make a decision soon? When do you see announcements coming out?

Btw, I’m torn. Life long Sox fan, I admittedly share corbis concerns about Machado, but to lessor degree. I like Harper, but recall he was a real blow hard when he got in the league. Man, I would love to see Trout on the south side.
 

Hungry Jack

All-Conference
Nov 17, 2008
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Most similar players through age cohort:

Trout (age 26)
Frank Robinson
Ken Griffey Jr.
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Miggy Cabrera
Orlanda Cepeda (wasn't expecting that!)
Mel Ott

Machado (25)
Adrian Beltre
Ron Santo
Andruw Jones
Ruben Sierra
Ryan Zimmerman
Bryce Harper
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Well, pitchers and catchers report is starting to happen. Don’t Machado and Harper need to make a decision soon? When do you see announcements coming out?

Btw, I’m torn. Life long Sox fan, I admittedly share corbis concerns about Machado, but to lessor degree. I like Harper, but recall he was a real blow hard when he got in the league. Man, I would love to see Trout on the south side.

This could drag into March similar to JD Martinez last year.

Baseball is in some trouble
 

corbi2961

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Sep 9, 2005
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This could drag into March similar to JD Martinez last year.

Baseball is in some trouble

So if you feel this way and acknowledge the economics of baseball are broken, what makes you think the White sox or any other team is going to shell out a record long term contract that follows the unsustainable path that player’s contracts have taken to lead us to this point?

Maybe the Cubs will shell out $30mm a year for Harper after all just to deflect attention from this Joe Ricketts debacle.
 
Last edited:
Jun 1, 2014
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So if you feel this way and acknowledge the economics of baseball are broken, what makes you think the White sox or any other team is going to shell out a record long term contract that follows the unsustainable path that player’s contracts have taken to lead us to this point?

Maybe the Cubs will shell out $30mm a year for Harper after all just to deflect attention from this Joe Ricketts debacle.

The Cubs won't do that because they'd lose out on depth and exceed the lux tax. Unless the Cubs can shed Heyward's contract (ain't happening) they're not making a major splash. Same reason the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers aren't "in" on him

Teams used to pay for past performance. Now they are done doing that because of how often these long term deals have been bad financial decisions once they play out. That's what is going to have to change.

I'd do something (once a player's "clock" starts) like 1 year at $550K then 3 arb years that pay a player their "worth" respective to what they did the previous season, then free agency. Players would then be free agents at 27-28 much more often as opposed to 30-31 like they are now
 

rwhitney014

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The Cubs won't do that because they'd lose out on depth and exceed the lux tax. Unless the Cubs can shed Heyward's contract (ain't happening) they're not making a major splash. Same reason the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers aren't "in" on him

Teams used to pay for past performance. Now they are done doing that because of how often these long term deals have been bad financial decisions once they play out. That's what is going to have to change.

I'd do something (once a player's "clock" starts) like 1 year at $550K then 3 arb years that pay a player their "worth" respective to what they did the previous season, then free agency. Players would then be free agents at 27-28 much more often as opposed to 30-31 like they are now

Just catching up on this thread - it's like the 4th of July in here!

This is a really interesting point to me, one that underscores the particular strangeness of the market for Machado and Harper.

For the first time in recent MLB history, we have two superstar free agents on the open market, neither of whom has first-round draft pick compensation tied to them, and both of whom are free agents at 26 or younger. If EVER there were a time that the monster 8- or 10-year deal would be justified, it's on these guys. Both still have projectable improvement in their profiles. One of them is an elite defensive player when he's at the correct position.

Harper's a bit of a strange player, as he has alternated spectacular offensive seasons with lackluster ones. Last year, his defensive performance rated quite poorly, but it seems like a blip for a 25-year-old who was forced to play out of position in CF a lot for the first time. And even in those "terrible" years, he's still chasing a .400 OBP while hitting a bunch of homers.

Machado, for his part, had a "bad" 2017 and put up 3.5 WAR. I've posted about this concept before, but if you place even a conservative price of $6M per WAR on the free agent market, that means Machado's bad year was worth $21M in free agency dollars. His good years are worth double that, or more.

This whole situation, from the Sox's perspective reminds me of the megadeal Washington handed Jayson Werth. The Phillies had been the gold standard in the NL East, and the Nats saw an opportunity to strike a big deal that would change the narrative around the team because they had Harper, Rendon, Strasburg, et al on the way. They did so knowing that the first year or two of Werth's deal wouldn't be winning seasons for the team, but they were setting up the mid years of the deal to be good ones for the franchise. And guess what? Werth was terrible Year 1, hurt Year 2...and excellent Years 3 and 4 on some very good teams. Washington never won a title because of other mistakes and the Curse of Benching Strasburg, but that deal altered how other players around the league regarded the team, how fans valued attendance and watching games, the whole shebang.

Now, the difference with these two players is that they're both much better and much younger than Werth was. As 24 has laid out here quite well, the Sox have a window opening soon where they will have a ton of good, cheap talent. They play in a division that is ripe for the taking over the next 5-7 years - the Indians' window is starting to close, the Twins are confusing, the Royals are well behind Chicago in their rebuild, and Detroit's a mess. If you can get Machado (or Harper, but I like Machado a little bit better) at ANY kind of a discount, even if Year 1 of the contract is still not a "successful" season, you do it!

It's the same reason San Diego is well advised to go after Harper - they've got the best farm in baseball, and the Dodgers' stranglehold on the division seems a little more tenuous than it has for the last few seasons while Arizona and San Francisco are staring big rebuilds down. You have an offseason where the traditional big spenders - BOS, NYY, CHC, LAD - have luxury tax concerns. Go get a player where you can plan for the middle years of the contract lining up with both the prime years of the player's career, the time your own young players are going to hit the majors, and the time your competitors may be in worse shape than they are now.

Most of the time, I scoff at the free agent overpays as much as anyone else, but Machado and Harper are unique free agency cases that provide unusual value to atypical teams on the market. The Sox and the Pads have been undertaking very patient rebuilds, and it's telling that they both realize the opportunity in front of them. For the sake of seeing some underdogs do well, I hope they don't blow the opportunity over a relatively marginal $20-30M amortized over 8-10 years. This is a chance to add tremendous value, perhaps 5-7 wins per season over the next half-decade or more, without the concern over paying huge dollars for age-37/38/39+ seasons. Go for it!!!
 

corbi2961

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Sep 9, 2005
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The Cubs won't do that because they'd lose out on depth and exceed the lux tax. Unless the Cubs can shed Heyward's contract (ain't happening) they're not making a major splash. Same reason the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers aren't "in" on him

Teams used to pay for past performance. Now they are done doing that because of how often these long term deals have been bad financial decisions once they play out. That's what is going to have to change.

I'd do something (once a player's "clock" starts) like 1 year at $550K then 3 arb years that pay a player their "worth" respective to what they did the previous season, then free agency. Players would then be free agents at 27-28 much more often as opposed to 30-31 like they are now

Only kidding about the Cubs signing Harper to distract from the Joe Ricketts debacle. Half kidding. This thing could get bad for the Cubs if it snowballs.
 

Hungry Jack

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Just catching up on this thread - it's like the 4th of July in here!

This is a really interesting point to me, one that underscores the particular strangeness of the market for Machado and Harper.

For the first time in recent MLB history, we have two superstar free agents on the open market, neither of whom has first-round draft pick compensation tied to them, and both of whom are free agents at 26 or younger. If EVER there were a time that the monster 8- or 10-year deal would be justified, it's on these guys. Both still have projectable improvement in their profiles. One of them is an elite defensive player when he's at the correct position.

Harper's a bit of a strange player, as he has alternated spectacular offensive seasons with lackluster ones. Last year, his defensive performance rated quite poorly, but it seems like a blip for a 25-year-old who was forced to play out of position in CF a lot for the first time. And even in those "terrible" years, he's still chasing a .400 OBP while hitting a bunch of homers.

Machado, for his part, had a "bad" 2017 and put up 3.5 WAR. I've posted about this concept before, but if you place even a conservative price of $6M per WAR on the free agent market, that means Machado's bad year was worth $21M in free agency dollars. His good years are worth double that, or more.

This whole situation, from the Sox's perspective reminds me of the megadeal Washington handed Jayson Werth. The Phillies had been the gold standard in the NL East, and the Nats saw an opportunity to strike a big deal that would change the narrative around the team because they had Harper, Rendon, Strasburg, et al on the way. They did so knowing that the first year or two of Werth's deal wouldn't be winning seasons for the team, but they were setting up the mid years of the deal to be good ones for the franchise. And guess what? Werth was terrible Year 1, hurt Year 2...and excellent Years 3 and 4 on some very good teams. Washington never won a title because of other mistakes and the Curse of Benching Strasburg, but that deal altered how other players around the league regarded the team, how fans valued attendance and watching games, the whole shebang.

Now, the difference with these two players is that they're both much better and much younger than Werth was. As 24 has laid out here quite well, the Sox have a window opening soon where they will have a ton of good, cheap talent. They play in a division that is ripe for the taking over the next 5-7 years - the Indians' window is starting to close, the Twins are confusing, the Royals are well behind Chicago in their rebuild, and Detroit's a mess. If you can get Machado (or Harper, but I like Machado a little bit better) at ANY kind of a discount, even if Year 1 of the contract is still not a "successful" season, you do it!

It's the same reason San Diego is well advised to go after Harper - they've got the best farm in baseball, and the Dodgers' stranglehold on the division seems a little more tenuous than it has for the last few seasons while Arizona and San Francisco are staring big rebuilds down. You have an offseason where the traditional big spenders - BOS, NYY, CHC, LAD - have luxury tax concerns. Go get a player where you can plan for the middle years of the contract lining up with both the prime years of the player's career, the time your own young players are going to hit the majors, and the time your competitors may be in worse shape than they are now.

Most of the time, I scoff at the free agent overpays as much as anyone else, but Machado and Harper are unique free agency cases that provide unusual value to atypical teams on the market. The Sox and the Pads have been undertaking very patient rebuilds, and it's telling that they both realize the opportunity in front of them. For the sake of seeing some underdogs do well, I hope they don't blow the opportunity over a relatively marginal $20-30M amortized over 8-10 years. This is a chance to add tremendous value, perhaps 5-7 wins per season over the next half-decade or more, without the concern over paying huge dollars for age-37/38/39+ seasons. Go for it!!!
It only takes two teams to start a bidding war, but it sure looks like it won't happen for two of the best FA prospects since I can remember (ARod?).

According to Cots, the Cubs, Yanks and BoSox are all over the tax threshold. The Nats and Dodgers are close enough such that a $20M deal puts them over.

So that's 5 potentially big spenders who appear to be sitting out the sweepstakes. The Mets seem more inclined to spend big $$ on aging stars like Cano and Cespedes, but they could become a bidder. I still think Atlanta would make a ton of sense for Harper (they lose Donaldson's $23M salary next year) but they are probably close to max on payroll.

In sum, I think the timing is unfortunate for both Harper and Machado. The big spenders are not in play. It won't shock me if both guys take short term deals in search of a mega deal in a year or two.
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Just catching up on this thread - it's like the 4th of July in here!

This is a really interesting point to me, one that underscores the particular strangeness of the market for Machado and Harper.

For the first time in recent MLB history, we have two superstar free agents on the open market, neither of whom has first-round draft pick compensation tied to them, and both of whom are free agents at 26 or younger. If EVER there were a time that the monster 8- or 10-year deal would be justified, it's on these guys. Both still have projectable improvement in their profiles. One of them is an elite defensive player when he's at the correct position.

Harper's a bit of a strange player, as he has alternated spectacular offensive seasons with lackluster ones. Last year, his defensive performance rated quite poorly, but it seems like a blip for a 25-year-old who was forced to play out of position in CF a lot for the first time. And even in those "terrible" years, he's still chasing a .400 OBP while hitting a bunch of homers.

Machado, for his part, had a "bad" 2017 and put up 3.5 WAR. I've posted about this concept before, but if you place even a conservative price of $6M per WAR on the free agent market, that means Machado's bad year was worth $21M in free agency dollars. His good years are worth double that, or more.

This whole situation, from the Sox's perspective reminds me of the megadeal Washington handed Jayson Werth. The Phillies had been the gold standard in the NL East, and the Nats saw an opportunity to strike a big deal that would change the narrative around the team because they had Harper, Rendon, Strasburg, et al on the way. They did so knowing that the first year or two of Werth's deal wouldn't be winning seasons for the team, but they were setting up the mid years of the deal to be good ones for the franchise. And guess what? Werth was terrible Year 1, hurt Year 2...and excellent Years 3 and 4 on some very good teams. Washington never won a title because of other mistakes and the Curse of Benching Strasburg, but that deal altered how other players around the league regarded the team, how fans valued attendance and watching games, the whole shebang.

Now, the difference with these two players is that they're both much better and much younger than Werth was. As 24 has laid out here quite well, the Sox have a window opening soon where they will have a ton of good, cheap talent. They play in a division that is ripe for the taking over the next 5-7 years - the Indians' window is starting to close, the Twins are confusing, the Royals are well behind Chicago in their rebuild, and Detroit's a mess. If you can get Machado (or Harper, but I like Machado a little bit better) at ANY kind of a discount, even if Year 1 of the contract is still not a "successful" season, you do it!

It's the same reason San Diego is well advised to go after Harper - they've got the best farm in baseball, and the Dodgers' stranglehold on the division seems a little more tenuous than it has for the last few seasons while Arizona and San Francisco are staring big rebuilds down. You have an offseason where the traditional big spenders - BOS, NYY, CHC, LAD - have luxury tax concerns. Go get a player where you can plan for the middle years of the contract lining up with both the prime years of the player's career, the time your own young players are going to hit the majors, and the time your competitors may be in worse shape than they are now.

Most of the time, I scoff at the free agent overpays as much as anyone else, but Machado and Harper are unique free agency cases that provide unusual value to atypical teams on the market. The Sox and the Pads have been undertaking very patient rebuilds, and it's telling that they both realize the opportunity in front of them. For the sake of seeing some underdogs do well, I hope they don't blow the opportunity over a relatively marginal $20-30M amortized over 8-10 years. This is a chance to add tremendous value, perhaps 5-7 wins per season over the next half-decade or more, without the concern over paying huge dollars for age-37/38/39+ seasons. Go for it!!!

Awesome post right here. The surplus valley you these two guys would potentially have with respect to the contract they're both looking at signing would be absurd, which NEVER happens with these long term deals. Off the top of my head Scherzer is the only one where it has.
 

NUCat320

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@rwhitney014 Good post. My favorite comparison is when the 43-win (!) Tigers overpaid for Pudge prior to 2003. He was not the best player - but he was the heart and soul of a wonderfully weird World Series team. (Casey! Inge! Guillen! Thames and Monroe! Infante! Zoom Zoom Zumaya!)
 

rwhitney014

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Dec 5, 2007
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Awesome post right here. The surplus valley you these two guys would potentially have with respect to the contract they're both looking at signing would be absurd, which NEVER happens with these long term deals. Off the top of my head Scherzer is the only one where it has.

Yeah, Scherzer's contract is on the level of Greg Maddux's first deal with Atlanta. Those may well be the best two big-ticket free agency signings of all time. Even though he declined a bit in the last two years of his deal, Vladimir Guerrero's deal with the Angels worked out very well for them. Same for Manny Ramirez in Boston. Those are about the best ones I can think of on the position-player side in the last couple decades, at least for a player who played out most or all of his contract with the signing team (ruling out A-Rod, Carlos Delgado's Marlins contract, and Jim Thome's Phillies one, not to mention that Delgado and Thome would both have been better served by being DHs at that point of their careers, as Thome eventually would with the Sox.) It's too early to judge on JD Martinez's contract, but it's off to a great start.

Anyway, all of those guys were older, and they were in markets (except Scherzer) where teams didn't have to give up picks to sign them. Whoever signs Harper gives up a 4th, which is inconsequential for a signing of that magnitude, and Machado has no compensation tied to him because players traded during the previous season cannot be made qualifying offers to create such compensation.

Given what it would cost the Sox in player assets to trade for a player of Machado's or Harper's caliber, the fact that all they have to do is spend some money on a really cheap and talented roster screams opportunity.

(I'm kinda geeked to talk baseball on this board. A rare opportunity.)
 

rwhitney014

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@rwhitney014 Good post. My favorite comparison is when the 43-win (!) Tigers overpaid for Pudge prior to 2003. He was not the best player - but he was the heart and soul of a wonderfully weird World Series team. (Casey! Inge! Guillen! Thames and Monroe! Infante! Zoom Zoom Zumaya!)

As a Marlins fan, I've affirmatively blocked that one from my memory bank, but yes, same principle for sure.

The first year of that deal, Pudge was excellent offensively. He progressively nosedived from there, but he still retained value as the best defensive catcher of his generation and by managing that pitching staff. But same idea: he was undervalued on that market and ended up back in the World Series within the life of that deal.
 
Jun 1, 2014
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Yeah, Scherzer's contract is on the level of Greg Maddux's first deal with Atlanta. Those may well be the best two big-ticket free agency signings of all time. Even though he declined a bit in the last two years of his deal, Vladimir Guerrero's deal with the Angels worked out very well for them. Same for Manny Ramirez in Boston. Those are about the best ones I can think of on the position-player side in the last couple decades, at least for a player who played out most or all of his contract with the signing team (ruling out A-Rod, Carlos Delgado's Marlins contract, and Jim Thome's Phillies one, not to mention that Delgado and Thome would both have been better served by being DHs at that point of their careers, as Thome eventually would with the Sox.) It's too early to judge on JD Martinez's contract, but it's off to a great start.

Anyway, all of those guys were older, and they were in markets (except Scherzer) where teams didn't have to give up picks to sign them. Whoever signs Harper gives up a 4th, which is inconsequential for a signing of that magnitude, and Machado has no compensation tied to him because players traded during the previous season cannot be made qualifying offers to create such compensation.

Given what it would cost the Sox in player assets to trade for a player of Machado's or Harper's caliber, the fact that all they have to do is spend some money on a really cheap and talented roster screams opportunity.

(I'm kinda geeked to talk baseball on this board. A rare opportunity.)

That's exactly it!!! The White Sox have an opportunity to land one of the premier players in all of baseball and all it costs is money.


Corbi was right earlier - if you would have asked me what Harper/Machado's deals looked like in August of last year or so, I would have said 10/$350 - 12/$425 for either of them. The fact that they could potentially sign one of them for 8-9/$260-270 or so is crazy to me. The opportunity is way too good for them to pass up. They know this and unless Machado refuses to play in Chicago and go from a WS team to a team that's still (theoretically) a year away, they should land him.

Martinez has an opt out after year 2, 3, 4 and 5 of his deal - if he hits like he did this past season again in 2019, he might get a new 5/6 year deal for $150MM+ even as a 32 or whatever old DH.

And yes it's nice talking baseball on the Cats board. Allen is awesome - NU has a ton of factors that will never allow them to be anything better than an OK B1G program, but Allen is light years better than Stephens. That guy sucked (again, from personal experience)
 

Akeehn0912

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Feb 1, 2018
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That's exactly it!!! The White Sox have an opportunity to land one of the premier players in all of baseball and all it costs is money.


Corbi was right earlier - if you would have asked me what Harper/Machado's deals looked like in August of last year or so, I would have said 10/$350 - 12/$425 for either of them. The fact that they could potentially sign one of them for 8-9/$260-270 or so is crazy to me. The opportunity is way too good for them to pass up. They know this and unless Machado refuses to play in Chicago and go from a WS team to a team that's still (theoretically) a year away, they should land him.

Martinez has an opt out after year 2, 3, 4 and 5 of his deal - if he hits like he did this past season again in 2019, he might get a new 5/6 year deal for $150MM+ even as a 32 or whatever old DH.

And yes it's nice talking baseball on the Cats board. Allen is awesome - NU has a ton of factors that will never allow them to be anything better than an OK B1G program, but Allen is light years better than Stephens. That guy sucked (again, from personal experience)
Love all of the baseball chatter. Can’t come soon enough.
 
Nov 5, 2001
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Relentless workers? Are you kidding me? Machado in particular has made no bones about not believing in being a hustle player. He is a dog, low character player who has been a cancer on every team he has played on. Putting this in NU terms, Machado would be the type of high talent/low character player that FItz would not recruit to NU but Lovie would recruit to Illinois. The White Sox would be making a huge mistake to sign that guy as a cornerstone of their franchise, particularly with all the young impressionable young players they have coming up through their system.

I feel less strongly about Harper. My main beef with him is his inability to deliver and lead in the clutch. He is just not the guy I would pick to lead my team.
I've been to about 30 Orioles games in the past 5 years, the team he played 5.5 of his 6 years. "All the teams" ? Since college? Little League?

Dude does nothing but produce, including clutch hits. This, despite the fact that he had an overpaid slug of an albatross across the diamond, generating out after out.
Manny is a great player. But at some point, do you pay a guy 350m and risk a Cabrera/Howard's End? Or spread that over 5 or six really good players and hedge the risk

As Al Bundy said: "B"
 
Jun 1, 2014
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I used to read to his Cubs Den blog religiously prior to him passing away unexpectedly a short while back. Very sharp baseball analyst and also a really good guy.

That's how I know his name, I remember hearing that he had passed to cancer (I think). That one had hurt the Cubs community pretty badly from what I remember, very unfortunate.

The Bleacher Nation guy does a good job for the Cubs fan beat now
 

corbi2961

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Hungry Jack

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I've been to about 30 Orioles games in the past 5 years, the team he played 5.5 of his 6 years. "All the teams" ? Since college? Little League?

Dude does nothing but produce, including clutch hits. This, despite the fact that he had an overpaid slug of an albatross across the diamond, generating out after out.
Manny is a great player. But at some point, do you pay a guy 350m and risk a Cabrera/Howard's End? Or spread that over 5 or six really good players and hedge the risk

As Al Bundy said: "B"
The only way you get 5 or 6 really good players on one MLB roster is to draft them or trade for them as prospects (see Cubs with Rizz, Bryant, Baez, 2016 Addison Russell, Contreras, etc). Then you won’t be able to keep them all when their arb years run out. You cannot buy that much talent on the FA market in one of two off seasons.
 

rwhitney014

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The only way you get 5 or 6 really good players on one MLB roster is to draft them or trade for them as prospects (see Cubs with Rizz, Bryant, Baez, 2016 Addison Russell, Contreras, etc). Then you won’t be able to keep them all when their arb years run out. You cannot buy that much talent on the FA market in one of two off seasons.

Right. Andrew McCutchen signed a 3/$50 deal early this offseason. He did a great job reading the market, apparently. Anyway, his 0.8 WAR last year is nothing special. Multiply it by 6 free agent players at that rate and you get 4.8 WAR, which is pretty much exactly what Machado put up last year in one spot in the lineup.
 

willycat

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I just got around to reading your last paragraph. I am not sure which I find more laughable. The implication that just because the White Sox have the payroll flexibility to pay either of those guys $30mm per year on along term contract, then that makes it the right thing to do from a business or baseball perspective. Or alternatively that just because the White Sox have the payroll flexibility to pay either of those guys $30mm per year, then that’s what Reinsdorf will actually do. Neither of those guys are worth that kind of money and I am pretty sure Reinsdorf knows it.
The Sox are getting neither. First it's just a Reinsdorf ploy to sell a few more tickets and secondly these guys do not want to play for a noncontender in a half empty ballpark. Also, editors is there some way to stop one poster from making 3/4 of the comments on one thread? Please!
 

Hungry Jack

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Right. Andrew McCutchen signed a 3/$50 deal early this offseason. He did a great job reading the market, apparently. Anyway, his 0.8 WAR last year is nothing special. Multiply it by 6 free agent players at that rate and you get 4.8 WAR, which is pretty much exactly what Machado put up last year in one spot in the lineup.

Yeah. The opportunity to sign a 5 WAR player well under the age of 30 is a rare, rare occurrence. If all it takes is money, you give it your best shot. It’s not dissimilar from the Bears being able to get
Khalil Mack. You so rarely have a chance to get a young transformational talent.
 

Fitz51

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The Sox are getting neither. First it's just a Reinsdorf ploy to sell a few more tickets and secondly these guys do not want to play for a noncontender in a half empty ballpark.

1. No Sox fan is buying tickets based on the possibility that a big FA may sign. We few Sox fans that there are don't buy on hope.
2. Baseball players will play for whoever pays them the most money, is in a city they are comfortable with, etc. This notion that players dismiss certain franchises because of current contention or fan interest is talk radio garbage.
 

Aging Booster

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Yeah. The NL Central is pretty solid. The Cards have some young talented arms, and maybe Goldschmidt pushes them through, but I still think the Cubs are tops. The Brewers overachieved last year, but are still a good team.

Hopefully the Reds don't bury themselves in April again. That was brutal.
The Brewers will be better this year - a lot better. People underestimate the quality of their young pitchers, Burnes and Woodruff in particular, moving into the rotation. Their ace from 2016-17, Jimmy Nelson, returns aftyer missing all of 2018. In addition, Peralta has a year of mostly starting under his belt. Chacin, who served as the #1 starter last year, will likely be their 5th best starter this year. The starting pitching this year will be very, very good - in my opinion, much better than the Cubs' old men will be. By late May or early June they will have Hiura at 2b. This young man is a born hitter who is likely to bat leadoff, moving Cain to the second spot and Yellich to the third spot where he belongs. Look out for these guys.
 

corbi2961

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786
0
The Brewers will be better this year - a lot better. People underestimate the quality of their young pitchers, Burnes and Woodruff in particular, moving into the rotation. Their ace from 2016-17, Jimmy Nelson, returns aftyer missing all of 2018. In addition, Peralta has a year of mostly starting under his belt. Chacin, who served as the #1 starter last year, will likely be their 5th best starter this year. The starting pitching this year will be very, very good - in my opinion, much better than the Cubs' old men will be. By late May or early June they will have Hiura at 2b. This young man is a born hitter who is likely to bat leadoff, moving Cain to the second spot and Yellich to the third spot where he belongs. Look out for these guys.

As a Cubs fan, I am afraid I agree with you. I am sure the Cubs will be better this year but unfortunately so will the Brewers and I like their manager better than ours.
 

Hungry Jack

All-Conference
Nov 17, 2008
36,364
1,910
67
The Brewers will be better this year - a lot better. People underestimate the quality of their young pitchers, Burnes and Woodruff in particular, moving into the rotation. Their ace from 2016-17, Jimmy Nelson, returns aftyer missing all of 2018. In addition, Peralta has a year of mostly starting under his belt. Chacin, who served as the #1 starter last year, will likely be their 5th best starter this year. The starting pitching this year will be very, very good - in my opinion, much better than the Cubs' old men will be. By late May or early June they will have Hiura at 2b. This young man is a born hitter who is likely to bat leadoff, moving Cain to the second spot and Yellich to the third spot where he belongs. Look out for these guys.
None of the projection systems I have seen forecast any Brewers' starting pitcher above a 2 WAR season. Yelich, Cain and Grandal look to be their best position players, with Aguilar regressing after his breakout year.

I think they'll be good, but a lot will be riding on that rotation and those young arms.
 
Jun 1, 2014
4,774
292
70
The Brewers will be better this year - a lot better. People underestimate the quality of their young pitchers, Burnes and Woodruff in particular, moving into the rotation. Their ace from 2016-17, Jimmy Nelson, returns aftyer missing all of 2018. In addition, Peralta has a year of mostly starting under his belt. Chacin, who served as the #1 starter last year, will likely be their 5th best starter this year. The starting pitching this year will be very, very good - in my opinion, much better than the Cubs' old men will be. By late May or early June they will have Hiura at 2b. This young man is a born hitter who is likely to bat leadoff, moving Cain to the second spot and Yellich to the third spot where he belongs. Look out for these guys.

Hammer their over if you gamble. It's at 84 wins last I looked. Also, I can't believe they're not in on Keuchel or didn't go HARD at Arrieta last year.
 

TheC

Senior
May 29, 2001
18,661
802
62
The Brewers will be better this year - a lot better. People underestimate the quality of their young pitchers, Burnes and Woodruff in particular, moving into the rotation. Their ace from 2016-17, Jimmy Nelson, returns aftyer missing all of 2018. In addition, Peralta has a year of mostly starting under his belt. Chacin, who served as the #1 starter last year, will likely be their 5th best starter this year. The starting pitching this year will be very, very good - in my opinion, much better than the Cubs' old men will be. By late May or early June they will have Hiura at 2b. This young man is a born hitter who is likely to bat leadoff, moving Cain to the second spot and Yellich to the third spot where he belongs. Look out for these guys.
Bah.... the Reds are gonna' crush the Brewers this year. (And I'll continue to believe that until at least mid-
April!)
 

Purple Pile Driver

All-Conference
May 14, 2014
25,969
1,446
113
The Brewers will be better this year - a lot better. People underestimate the quality of their young pitchers, Burnes and Woodruff in particular, moving into the rotation. Their ace from 2016-17, Jimmy Nelson, returns aftyer missing all of 2018. In addition, Peralta has a year of mostly starting under his belt. Chacin, who served as the #1 starter last year, will likely be their 5th best starter this year. The starting pitching this year will be very, very good - in my opinion, much better than the Cubs' old men will be. By late May or early June they will have Hiura at 2b. This young man is a born hitter who is likely to bat leadoff, moving Cain to the second spot and Yellich to the third spot where he belongs. Look out for these guys.
If Jimmy Nelson is your ace good luck winning the division. Nice player not a star.
 

IGNORE

Redshirt
Jan 15, 2019
3,584
0
0
Right. Andrew McCutchen signed a 3/$50 deal early this offseason. He did a great job reading the market, apparently. Anyway, his 0.8 WAR last year is nothing special. Multiply it by 6 free agent players at that rate and you get 4.8 WAR, which is pretty much exactly what Machado put up last year in one spot in the lineup.

My math may be off but that is $100M per year for 6 blah guys. Or Machado for $25-30M per year for a stud. I think you need a few studs - couple position players and a couple of pitchers plus another 4-6 blah players. So, if you organically find 2 of those studs and are pre-arb, then you are probably looking at about $200M payroll. Which seems about right for a ticket to the post season prom.
 

rwhitney014

Sophomore
Dec 5, 2007
5,226
134
27
You're right, looks like I conflated some of the annual/overall numbers. But the overall point remains. There can be value in large contracts so long as the player meets or exceeds the value of the contract. Harper and Machado are the rare case of players who will be paid in a long term free agency deal for future performance, not past. The constellation of multiple players at positions of need who are capable of requisite production is extremely uncommon.
 

TheC

Senior
May 29, 2001
18,661
802
62
They won the division with Jhoulys Chacin being their de-facto ace last season.
They won the division with that bullpen. They didn't ask much of their starters. I kind of hope the Reds try that formula this year.
 

Fitz51

Senior
Oct 21, 2008
10,115
649
0
They won the division with that bullpen. They didn't ask much of their starters. I kind of hope the Reds try that formula this year.

I know, which was why I used them to counter the notion that a team’s not winning a division with Jimmy Nelson as its best starter. The very team about which he was talking literally just won the same division with their best starter being worse than Jimmy Nelson.
 

Hungry Jack

All-Conference
Nov 17, 2008
36,364
1,910
67
Bullpen pitchers are notoriously variable in their performance from year to year (Just ask the Cardinals, who always seem to buy high on guys like Brett Cecil, Greg Holland and Luke Gregorson, and get burned). So the Brews, who were 5 games above their Pythagorean record in 2018, seem unlikely to repeat that formula. But they have good players and will be in the thick of it.