OT: civils help me understand

[T-TownDawgg]

We could build much better roads that lasted longer and would save money in the long run.

Pay attention.

Roadbuilding/Paving associations are state level organizations that become a super-PAC that not only keeps the little-guy-small-potato pavers on the sidelines but, more importantly, buys political influence, much of which goes toward writing state-level specs. When you successfully get the state board to approve specs that allow you to use, I dunno, 30-45% recycled asphalt, you know that it drives your costs down, and as a bonus, you’ll be back bidding another re-surface 5-7 years after it’s laid.

I Blame Auburn university for much of what is wrong in the world right now, but especially shittastic asphalt. NCAT(National Center for Asphalt Technologhy) is located in Auburn and most of the arrogant bastards there are Barn grads. They are heavily influenced by AAPA(Alabama Asphalt Paving Association) whose influence helped spur the creation of 424 “Superpave” mixes, which have more recycled materials. Needless to say, this is not good for flexibly or durability. I can go on for paragraphs about this but I’ll just say: The old mixes lasted longer.

NCAT is extremely influential to AASHTO and federal specs, and *poof*
We’re driving on shittier roads than our grandparents.

It’s called progress. Just turn your brain off.

 

[paindonthurt]

Pay attention.

Roadbuilding/Paving associations are state level organizations that become a super-PAC that not only keeps the little-guy-small-potato pavers on the sidelines but, more importantly, buys political influence, much of which goes toward writing state-level specs. When you successfully get the state board to approve specs that allow you to use, I dunno, 30-45% recycled asphalt, you know that it drives your costs down, and as a bonus, you’ll be back bidding another re-surface 5-7 years after it’s laid.

I Blame Auburn university for much of what is wrong in the world right now, but especially ****** asphalt. NCAT(National Center for Asphalt Technologhy) is located on Auburn and most of the arrogant engineers there are Barn grads. They are heavily influenced by AAPA(Alabama Asphalt Paving Association) whose influence helped spur the creation of 424 “Superpave” mixes, which have more recycled materials. Needless to say, this is not good for flexibly or durability. I can go on for paragraphs about this but I’ll just say: The old mixes lasted longer.

NCAT is extremely influential to AASHTO and federal specs, and *poof*
We’re driving on shittier roads than our grandparents.

It’s called progress. Just turn your brain off.

I think that means you agree with me?

 

[Xenomorph]

Roundabouts are all the rage in Desoto County. Hernando is about to have 5 or 6 within the year.

Roundabouts are magic.. Several areas where I live have been transformed from "don't never ever enter" to now the beer flows like wine through the intersection.

I now question the wisdom of any municipality who goes to the expense of installing new traffic lights when they could put the money toward a roundabout and solve the problem forever.

 

[Xenomorph]

Roundabouts kick asss, until a dumbshlt like @paindonthurt drives into one......or fails to drive into one.....depending on the situation.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

I think that means you agree with me?

Yes. But don’t be a Democrat. Read.

Know the subject before engaging in the knee-jerk blame game.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I think that means you agree with me?

Who pays into those associations crackhead? That's right, private contractors. Oops

 

[Xenomorph]

Pay attention.

Roadbuilding/Paving associations are state level organizations that become a super-PAC that not only keeps the little-guy-small-potato pavers on the sidelines but, more importantly, buys political influence, much of which goes toward writing state-level specs. When you successfully get the state board to approve specs that allow you to use, I dunno, 30-45% recycled asphalt, you know that it drives your costs down, and as a bonus, you’ll be back bidding another re-surface 5-7 years after it’s laid.

I Blame Auburn university for much of what is wrong in the world right now, but especially ****** asphalt. NCAT(National Center for Asphalt Technologhy) is located on Auburn and most of the arrogant engineers there are Barn grads. They are heavily influenced by AAPA(Alabama Asphalt Paving Association) whose influence helped spur the creation of 424 “Superpave” mixes, which have more recycled materials. Needless to say, this is not good for flexibly or durability. I can go on for paragraphs about this but I’ll just say: The old mixes lasted longer.

NCAT is extremely influential to AASHTO and federal specs, and *poof*
We’re driving on shittier roads than our grandparents.

It’s called progress. Just turn your brain off.

I love times like this when an expert in a niche field weighs in on a conversation and talks over the heads of us peons. I've seen so many lively conversations like this in my industry go silent when a big boy steps up and lays it out for everybody.

 

[AMereMortal]

You have to design a solution, bruh.


Not exactly what you're referencing, but I've been screaming about interchange re-work for years. This country is obsessed with adding lanes but until we re-work many of the interchanges, traffic will continue to pile up, just in wider segments.

Unfortunately too many DOTs think like @horshack.sixpack, and just want to throw the money out there at low-hanging fruit like more lanes. Of course, in the case of Stribling Road, maybe it will work. Above I was talking more about interstates and controlled access.

A tale as old as time...

 

[T-TownDawgg]

I love times like this when an expert in a niche field weighs in on a conversation and talks over the heads of us peons. I've seen so many lively conversations like this in my industry go silent when a big boy steps up and lays it out for everybody.

Talking down to anyone wasn’t my objective.

This thread started with taking a giant shittt on your local engineers. I know of no other wolrld like the DOT. Here, engineers are tasked with building and maintaining a critical infrastructure based on specs written by businessmen and politicians, and constrained by no more room for ROW and bridges we can’t replace, fix, or move due to politics, and crippled by budgets that were based on gasoline tax codes set up in the 70’s.

Taking a shittt on the system is justified. I do it every day, but make sure it’s directed correctly. When it comes to your local engineers, I think we judge these people harshly considering the stifling constraints they must work within.

 

[paindonthurt]

Yes. But don’t be a Democrat. Read.

Know the subject before engaging in the knee-jerk blame game.

I mean you basically said what I was saying just went into more detail. I appreciate that.

 

[paindonthurt]

Who pays into those associations crackhead? That's right, private contractors. Oops

Who allows that to happen? Government.

As long as the gubment allows something to happen, its gonna happen.

I'm not taking any blame away from private contractors but they are just playing by the rules established.

 

[paindonthurt]

Talking down to anyone wasn’t my objective.

This thread started with taking a giant shittt on your local engineers. I know of no other wolrld like the DOT. Here, engineers are tasked with building and maintaining a critical infrastructure based on specs written by businessmen and politicians, and constrained by no more room for ROW and bridges we can’t replace, fix, or move due to politics, and crippled by budgets that were based on gasoline tax codes set up in the 70’s.

Taking a shittt on the system is justified. I do it every day, but make sure it’s directed correctly. When it comes to your local engineers, I think we judge these people harshly considering the stifling constraints they must work within.

For the record, i'm not $hitting on engineers. I'm one.

If the government wants to pay me a boat load of money for something stupid, i'm all in. Id rather the government didnt pay for anything stupid though.

 

[Xenomorph]

Talking down to anyone wasn’t my objective.

This thread started with taking a giant shittt on your local engineers. I know of no other wolrld like the DOT. Here, engineers are tasked with building and maintaining a critical infrastructure based on specs written by businessmen and politicians, and constrained by no more room for ROW and bridges we can’t replace, fix, or move due to politics, and crippled by budgets that were based on gasoline tax codes set up in the 70’s.

Taking a shittt on the system is justified. I do it every day, but make sure it’s directed correctly. When it comes to your local engineers, I think we judge these people harshly considering the stifling constraints they must work within.

No man.. I was being serious. Experts in niche fields are amazing. When years of experience and contemplation starts talking folks with vague ideas and shallow knowledge run for the hills.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Who allows that to happen? Government.

As long as the gubment allows something to happen, its gonna happen.

I'm not taking any blame away from private contractors but they are just playing by the rules established.

Define the "government". Tell me, specifically. Who are the bad guys, or group of bad guys? Specifically.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

I mean you basically said what I was saying just went into more detail. I appreciate that.

I hope our current president continues to cut more red-tape and regulation. We actually have some major projects happening now in the “Design-Build” category that hopefully streamlines some things. If it goes well, we may see big changes coming up for road/bridge construction design and oversight. Is this a good thing? I think it will be. Hell, the current trajectory for needs vs. budget vs. personnel shortages are simply unsustainable. Something has to be done. At least he’s trying something, even if it fails.

Will less oversight on the front end save money to be directed more to future maintenance? And if so, will the long term trend for quality and lifespan suffer? That is TBD. On so many levels, we are all living in the biggest experiment this country has seen since Franklin Roosevelt.

 

[RocketDawg]

Be

Before any project can be designed or built you need a survey done. Environmental impact, a topo done, which includes hydrology, contours, above and underground utilities, establishing existing R.O.W and acquiring more Row (if needed). Alot of work before you start building.

Plus traffic counts to show that it's necessary at all. All the tickets have to be punched.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

When years of experience and contemplation starts talking folks with vague ideas and shallow knowledge run for the hills.

I just wish folks had listened more when I sat down on LV-426.

 

[paindonthurt]

I hope our current president continues to cut more red-tape and regulation. We actually have some major projects happening now in the “Design-Build” category that hopefully streamlines some things. If it goes well, we may see big changes coming up for road/bridge construction design and oversight. Is this a good thing? I think it will be. Hell, the current trajectory for needs vs. budget vs. personnel shortages are simply unsustainable. Something has to be done. At least he’s trying something, even if it fails.

Will less oversight on the front end save money to be directed more to future maintenance? And if so, will the long term trend for quality and lifespan suffer? That is TBD. On so many levels, we are all living in the biggest experiment this country has seen since Franklin Roosevelt.

I don’t really disagree with anything you said. We have to try something.

And speaking of Roosevelt he caused a lot of the problems we face today. Not all his fault but government spending exploded under him.

 

[Villagedawg]

Why we needed a study to be told 5 lanes is better than 2? Just put the funds towards the work…


Engineers hired by Madison County Supervisors believe they have identified a solution to the increasing traffic concerns on Stribling Road. The plan involves expanding Stribling Road to five lanes, from Highway 463 to Catlett Road.

STORY: https://www.wlbt.com/2025/07/22/fiv...ffic-jams-including-highway-463-intersection/

Not a civil, but my dad was, and I worked a lot with him. I remember him talking about the fact that expanding lanes is not always a solution. Reason being that depending on flow/volume of traffic expanding lanes can just lead to all the extra lanes filled up and just as backed up as the fewer lanes. I don't know all the details except that it's not always best to expand the number of lanes.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

And speaking of Roosevelt he caused a lot of the problems we face today. Not all his fault but government spending exploded under him.

Again, read. I’m not the biggest FDR fan, but don’t judge too harshly. One of my favorite lessons from an old history teacher was “before casting stones, remember what these people have seen.”

Roosevelt was considered damned near socialist. This was because he gave an impoverished nation reeling from the Great Depression a little bit of socialism so they wouldn’t demand a lot. Putting food on the table for millions of families might get you elected 4 times. Imagine going back and telling the voters in 1936 that FDR’s policies would get in the way of us being able to 5 lane our Interstates.

“Roosevelt caused a lot of our problems” you say. This country might not exist as we know it to deal with these problems had he not united a nation still broke and unemployed from the Depression to unite, fight and win the worst war our planet has ever seen.

 

[paindonthurt]

Define the "government". Tell me, specifically. Who are the bad guys, or group of bad guys? Specifically.

The collective system that has us in trillions of dollars of debt.

For specifics? $36,663,210,321,765 in DEBT. VERY VERY VERY BAD.

Here's a link for source you **** National Debt Clock: What Is the National Debt Right Now?

$2.9 million
Double digit goat

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The collective system that has us in trillions of dollars of debt.

For specifics? $36,663,210,321,765 in DEBT. VERY VERY VERY BAD.

Here's a link for source you **** National Debt Clock: What Is the National Debt Right Now?

$2.9 million
Double digit goat

So you don't have a specific person or group, you have a mysterious collective system.

How do you stop that collective system?

 

[paindonthurt]

So you don't have a specific person or group, you have a mysterious collective system.

How do you stop that collective system?

By looking at the individual groups. Kind of like maybe creating a department of government efficiency and making it all transparent as 17?

But if I site specific examples of waste, you’ll call it brain rot.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

By looking at the individual groups. Kind of like maybe creating a department of government efficiency and making it all transparent as 17?

But if I site specific examples of waste, you’ll call it brain rot.

So you have nothing to show for your anger but a failed department? Nice.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Plus traffic counts to show that it's necessary at all. All the tickets have to be punched.

To an extent. I wish we valued planning more, but too often you get to a point to where something MUST be done due to people bltching, which often makes construction even more painful.......or things get done because an elected official wants them done, for various reasons.

One of the questions on the PE was something to the effect of, "What is most likely to get governmental action at an intersection? Accident, public outcry, government planning, or something else. Public outcry is the answer.

 

[paindonthurt]

So you have nothing to show for your anger but a failed department? Nice.

Oh i can show you the waste. You will call it brain rot.

You asked for specifics. Here are 2.

The MDEQ could cut its work force by 20% to 25%. Lets call it 15% for now. They could save 6.5% on their budget for payroll after giving 10% raises to everyone.
Currently 367 employees approximately
Cut 15% to 311

Lets say they average $65,000 a person
current - 367 x $65,000 = $23,855,000
New - 311 x $71,500 (10% raise to get better people) = $22,236,500

6.8% reduction

How do i know you can cut it that much? Bc i worked there. I still know people who work there.

 

[paindonthurt]

So you have nothing to show for your anger but a failed department? Nice.

$20,000,000 for a sesame street like show in iraq
$2,000,000 for sex changes in Guatemala

Brain rot amirite??

 

[Negative Waves]

The Sowell Road interchange is a memorial to stupidity. We could've had a nearly straight connection from Stribling to I-55 but oh no, let's build a subdivision right in its path!

 

[mstateglfr]

$20,000,000 for a sesame street like show in iraq
$2,000,000 for sex changes in Guatemala

Brain rot amirite??

I had to click out of the thread to make sure I was in the one I intended to be in...a thread about the process of road building.

 

[paindonthurt]

I had to click out of the thread to make sure I was in the one I intended to be in...a thread about the process of road building.

STFU and read what i was responding to you DA

 

[Wesson Bulldog]

MDOT and the state screwed up when a larger loop around Jackson metro wasn't built in the 60s/70s. Terry to Brandon/Pelahatchie to Canton to Clinton to Terry would have been the best economic development project in central MSof the last 50 years.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

One of the questions on the PE was something to the effect of, "What is most likely to get governmental action at an intersection? Accident, public outcry, government planning, or something else. Public outcry is the ananswer.

That's another problem. I'm not going to bore you with so many stories about state/local politics throwing the monkey wrench into getting things done, but:

Politics are always downstream from culture.

As long as the public is fine with being conditioned to believe that taking 3 years to build a bridge is just "the government way", government bureaucracy won't change.

On the other hand, politicians who pander to idiotic griping like "my commute just got longer due to your construction" is one that makes me crazy, especially when the spineless gutless monkey fisted pieces of shittt politicians cave and don't jail those dumb mother17ers for being selfish idiots, and instead tell us that all construction personnel can't start until 8:30 am and must be out of the road by 3:30pm. This new constraint, of course, wasn't in the original contract, and is now costing the contractor money, so he's gonna sink a solid throbbing shaft in you on the next bid. And people wonder why it's so expensive.

Lord, I'm a little drunk and gonna stop myself here.

 

[sandwolf.sixpack]

The most stupid dysfunctional project I've seen is the Reunion Extension bridge across I55 without making it an interchange and please spare me the bullshiit excuse "well they're going to do that when they make I55 6 lanes" . Gluckstadt Rd has exits on to I55 and it's not 6 lanes now. They're literally building a bridge to nowhere. 17ing clowns.

You have got to be joking. I just assumed that there was going to be an interchange...you know, because that's the only practical reason to build that road and that overpass. I can't believe that.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

MDOT and the state screwed up when a larger loop around Jackson metro wasn't built in the 60s/70s. Terry to Brandon/Pelahatchie to Canton to Clinton to Terry would have been the best economic development project in central MSof the last 50 years.

Kinda hard to have that level of foresight back in those days, don't think anyone thought Jackson would suffer the fate it has. But damn it does sure seem like 220 is a wasted highway, I don't know how much traffic is going from Memphis to Shreveport via that route either.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Kinda hard to have that level of foresight back in those days, don't think anyone thought Jackson would suffer the fate it has. But damn it does sure seem like 220 is a wasted highway, I don't know how much traffic is going from Memphis to Shreveport via that route either.

220 is a truck route. They use it instead of trying to maneuver those curves between Lakeland and downtown.

 

[thatsbaseball]

You have got to be joking. I just assumed that there was going to be an interchange...you know, because that's the only practical reason to build that road and that overpass. I can't believe that.

The consensus is there is a huge problem with the amount of traffic on Bozeman road. A LARGE percentage of that traffic are people trying to get to and from I55. An interchange at the Reunion Extension and I55 intersection would clean up most of that problem. Instead they are pissing off millions widening Bozeman and that will probably worsen the problem at the Bozeman and 463 intersection. Incredibly stupid even by Mississippi standards.

 

[patdog]

The consensus is there is a huge problem with the amount of traffic on Bozeman road. A LARGE percentage of that traffic are people trying to get to and from I55. An interchange at the Reunion Extension and I55 intersection would clean up most of that problem. Instead they are pissing off millions widening Bozeman and that will probably worsen the problem at the Bozeman and 463 intersection. Incredibly stupid even by Mississippi standards.

I think what I would do is instead of going all the way down Bozeman, take the new road across the interstate & come down the big empty parkway on the other side. But an interchange there will be built. Didn’t have funding for it in this phase.

 

[mstateglfr]

STFU and read what i was responding to you DA

I read it all.
You are ranting about 'government waste' and applying it to yet another topic, regardless of if it does or doesnt apply well, and then cited a couple of incorrect spending claims to support your general rant.

- Your Iraq Sesame Street TV show claim is incorrect.
In Iraq, an early childhood learning program and a TV show have the same name. They are fundamentally different things. A multi-year funding commitment was given back in 2021 to Sesame Workshop to create the early childhood learning program(so not the TV show). Of the $18MM that was committed, just under $500K had been spent as of early 2025.

- Your Guatemala sex change claim is incorrect.
The awarded funding was for a host of things in Guatemala, so it was not simply $2MM for sex changes. The grant was for gender affirming care, which includes...mental health care, speech therapy, hormonal therapy, puberty blocking medication, and more. Of the $2MM granted, $350K was spent.


Neither of these has anything to do with domestic infrastructure or claimed waste within the various groups who oversee building and maintaining roads.
Additionally, if you are going to claim wasteful spending, then get it right. Say what was actually spent and correctly identify what it was for. You clearly just repeated the BS headlines that Musk and Leavitt created with their less than accurate claims.

Whether or not the US should pay for either of those programs is a reasonable discussion. But to have that reasonable discussion, everything needs to stick to actual facts.

 

[paindonthurt]

- Your Iraq Sesame Street TV show claim is incorrect.
In Iraq, an early childhood learning program and a TV show have the same name. They are fundamentally different things. A multi-year funding commitment was given back in 2021 to Sesame Workshop to create the early childhood learning program(so not the TV show). Of the $18MM that was committed, just under $500K had been spent as of early 2025.

EITHER WAY ITS A WASTE OF US TAX DOLLARS. HOW DO YOU NOT GET THAT?

wayyyyyy TLDR

 

[OG Goat Holder]

wayyyyyy TLDR

We know.....reading isn't your strong suit