OT: Coming to a beach near you in NJ and NY

[knightfan7]

How do you know this hasn't been caused by the wind farms? Nobody has proved anything either way.

And why have so many whales suddenly getting hit by boats?

Simple answer is there are no wind farms along the NJ coast yet but some think sonar mapping may be at fault.

Another point may be I understand there have been much bigger than normal runs of fish off the coast that whales feed on since the Fall. This brings whales into conflict with shipping.

I don't pretend to know the cause of these deaths but think the fact whale strikes along the Atlantic coast have been increasing since 2016 may point to factors apart from wind farms. The question is whether that's the only reason.

 

[RUDead]

Simple answer is there are no wind farms along the NJ coast yet but some think sonar mapping may be at fault.

Another point may be I understand there have been much bigger than normal runs of fish off the coast that whales feed on since the Fall. This brings whales into conflict with shipping.

I don't pretend to know the cause of these deaths but think the fact whale strikes along the Atlantic coast have been increasing since 2016 may point to factors apart from wind farms. The question is whether that's the only reason.

Yes the fall run pretty active (but nothing abnormal) but those fish moved offshore in Nov. It's pretty quiet in the winter around here. Will pick up again in April.

Murphy was against offshore oil drilling because of sonar mapping but for wind farms its somehow ok.

And they have said seismic surveying used to find oil reserves can harm marine life.

https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...drilling-phil-murphy-lawmakers-nj/1007443001/

 

[e5fdny]

That won't work for me lol.

But it might for me.

Tickets first and now maybe Ocean front too? #winning

 

[knightfan7]

Yes the fall run pretty active (but nothing abnormal) but those fish moved offshore in Nov. It's pretty quiet in the winter around here. Will pick up again in April.

Murphy was against offshore oil drilling because of sonar mapping but for wind farms its somehow ok.

And they have said seismic surveying used to find oil reserves can harm marine life.

https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...drilling-phil-murphy-lawmakers-nj/1007443001/

I'm not a fan of either but make me choose and wind farms win every time. Don't want to chance what's happened along the gulf coast in the past.

I won't get into it here but offshore oil drilling wasn't proposed just for tapping into reserves. That's a topic for a different time and place.

 

[knightfan7]

But it might for me.

Tickets first and now maybe Ocean front too? #winning

Hahahahahahahahaha

Beachfront property in the Heights! Boat dock in the back yard. I get it.

Of course that'd come with the coastal flooding so get those home lifters on speed dial.

 

[e5fdny]

Hahahahahahahahaha

Beachfront property in the Heights! Boat dock in the back yard. I get it.

Of course that'd come with the coastal flooding so get those home lifters on speed dial.

I noticed the boogie board house is gone?

Ocean and Potter.

 

[Knight Shift]

How do you know this hasn't been caused by the wind farms? Nobody has proved anything either way.

And why have so many whales suddenly getting hit by boats?

I don't have a dog or a whale in this fight. Lots of unanswered questions

 

[RU4Real]

How do you know this hasn't been caused by the wind farms? Nobody has proved anything either way.

And why have so many whales suddenly getting hit by boats?

It's not sudden.

Ship strikes and gear entanglements are the #1 cause of unnatural death for migrating whales. This has been the case for many years.

As for the increase in numbers, those of us who spend a lot of time on the ocean can tell you that there are a LOT more whales than there were 20 years ago. Additionally, increasing SSTs have contributed to a fundamental change in migratory habits and so they've become a more common sight in these waters.

 

[RUDead]

It's not sudden.

Ship strikes and gear entanglements are the #1 cause of unnatural death for migrating whales. This has been the case for many years.

As for the increase in numbers, those of us who spend a lot of time on the ocean can tell you that there are a LOT more whales than there were 20 years ago. Additionally, increasing SSTs have contributed to a fundamental change in migratory habits and so they've become a more common sight in these waters.

Disagree. There has been a sudden increase in deaths.

I've been fishing these waters for 25 years and the increase in whales happened about 5 or 10 years ago (obviously happened over time) but the big increase in deaths has occurred in the last few months. Increase in whales over the last 20 years doesn't explain this issue.

If you are a fisherman, then you should know there is not a lot of bait out there for them right now.

 

[RU4Real]

Disagree. There has been a sudden increase in deaths.

I've been fishing these waters for 25 years and the increase in whales happened about 5 or 10 years ago (obviously happened over time) but the big increase in deaths has occurred in the last few months. Increase in whales over the last 20 years doesn't explain this issue.

If you are a fisherman, then you should know there is not a lot of bait out there for them right now.

I appreciate the condescension, but Humpbacks are baleen whales and so do not feed on what we would typically know as "bait".

Additionally, they don't feed during the winter. This is mating season for Humpbacks.

As for their numbers - when we started counting in the late 1960s there were only about 5000 Humpbacks remaining. Today's population is estimated at about 135,000. They are *the* Cetacean success story.

The sonar thing is not a scientifically reliable explanation for the simple reason that there's no mechanism of injury that has been established.

 

[newell138]

It might be that it is being reported more than it was reported in the past.


Has there been an unbiased analysis of either the cause or if there has been an actual increase.

reported? They're literally washing up on the beaches, i think this is #12 or 13. Most years their may be 1 or 2. Not to mention all the reports from fishermen on the increase in dead whales just floating around out there that never make it to the beach.

 

[RUDead]

I appreciate the condescension, but Humpbacks are baleen whales and so do not feed on what we would typically know as "bait".

Additionally, they don't feed during the winter. This is mating season for Humpbacks.

As for their numbers - when we started counting in the late 1960s there were only about 5000 Humpbacks remaining. Today's population is estimated at about 135,000. They are *the* Cetacean success story.

The sonar thing is not a scientifically reliable explanation for the simple reason that there's no mechanism of injury that has been established.

Condescension? LOL

Here is a direct quote from you:

"As for the increase in numbers, those of us who spend a lot of time on the ocean can tell you"

 

[Knight Shift]

But it might for me.

Tickets first and now maybe Ocean front too? #winning

Everyone can use our roof in Belmar for a diving platform, provided that is not under water too.

 

[Knight Shift]

Hahahahahahahahaha

Beachfront property in the Heights! Boat dock in the back yard. I get it.

Of course that'd come with the coastal flooding so get those home lifters on speed dial.

Wreck Pond will be the next Barnegat Bay, and all of that goose poop will finally float away.

 

[Knight Shift]

Simple answer is there are no wind farms along the NJ coast yet but some think sonar mapping may be at fault.

Another point may be I understand there have been much bigger than normal runs of fish off the coast that whales feed on since the Fall. This brings whales into conflict with shipping.

I don't pretend to know the cause of these deaths but think the fact whale strikes along the Atlantic coast have been increasing since 2016 may point to factors apart from wind farms. The question is whether that's the only reason.

This seems plausible, but how do we know if the sonar mapping is not driving the fish and the whales into the shipping paths? Just asking.

Yes the fall run pretty active (but nothing abnormal) but those fish moved offshore in Nov. It's pretty quiet in the winter around here. Will pick up again in April.

Murphy was against offshore oil drilling because of sonar mapping but for wind farms its somehow ok.

And they have said seismic surveying used to find oil reserves can harm marine life.

https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...drilling-phil-murphy-lawmakers-nj/1007443001/

Not surprising.

I'm not a fan of either but make me choose and wind farms win every time. Don't want to chance what's happened along the gulf coast in the past.

I won't get into it here but offshore oil drilling wasn't proposed just for tapping into reserves. That's a topic for a different time and place.

Can we do neither and have offshore nuclear reactors?

 

[e5fdny]

I won't get into it here but offshore oil drilling wasn't proposed just for tapping into reserves. That's a topic for a different time and place.

Can we do neither and have offshore nuclear reactors?

I think I mentioned this earlier in the (now 27 page) thread that you can see offshore rigs from the beach in California.

Was watching the Letterman interview show on Netflix and he was talking to Julia Louis Dreyfus (as she was the guest) while they were walking along the beach and you could see them in the distance.

Had no idea.

 

[tom1944]

reported? They're literally washing up on the beaches, i think this is #12 or 13. Most years their may be 1 or 2. Not to mention all the reports from fishermen on the increase in dead whales just floating around out there that never make it to the beach.

Yes, I know they are washing up on the beach. Has every whale that has washed up on the beach always lead to a news story?

And how may are we actually talking about- especially in light of the whale population increasing from about 5,000 to 135,000. Are we seeing 27 times increase in dead whales?

With those numbers you would see a massive increase in dead whales.

 

[newell138]

Yes, I know they are washing up on the beach. Has every whale that has washed up on the beach always lead to a news story?

And how may are we actually talking about- especially in light of the whale population increasing from about 5,000 to 135,000. Are we seeing 27 times increase in dead whales?

With those numbers you would see a massive increase in dead whales.

They didn't increase from 5K to 135K in the last year. Thats probably taken 50 years to happen and as someone who lives at the shore, yes, every time a whale washes up on the beach its BIG news. People come from all over the area to see it.

 

[tom1944]

How many whales have washed since they started sonar mapping and how many wash up per year normally?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eanic-atmospheric-administration/11267587002/

 

[RU4Real]

Condescension? LOL

Here is a direct quote from you:

"As for the increase in numbers, those of us who spend a lot of time on the ocean can tell you"

Yep.

True statement.

 

[knightfan7]

Yep.

True statement.

True but the question is why? There seems to be evidence there have been a large number of boat strikes, ships coming out of NY Harbor seems to be a theory for some. Could the whale habitat be changing, bringing them into the shipping lanes and other areas with heavy boat traffic?

As I've said before I just would like some answers and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Knight Shift]

I appreciate the condescension, but Humpbacks are baleen whales and so do not feed on what we would typically know as "bait".

Additionally, they don't feed during the winter. This is mating season for Humpbacks.

As for their numbers - when we started counting in the late 1960s there were only about 5000 Humpbacks remaining. Today's population is estimated at about 135,000. They are *the* Cetacean success story.

The sonar thing is not a scientifically reliable explanation for the simple reason that there's no mechanism of injury that has been established.

You said Humpback.
How would you like it if you had to listen to a constant pinging during mating season?
No wonder they are swimming into ships and offing themselves. No food. Mating season disrupted. What's a poor Humpback to do in the winter?

 

[RU4Real]

You said Humpback.
How would you like it if you had to listen to a constant pinging during mating season?
No wonder they are swimming into ships and offing themselves. No food. Mating season disrupted. What's a poor Humpback to do in the winter?

But see, that's the thing.

All the people who want to blame whale deaths on sonar mapping overlook the fact that said mapping isn't some kind of ongoing, 24/7/365 thing. Based on AIS traffic, there's no such thing going on now, for instance. And, like I said, no one has ever established an actual mechanism of injury.

 

[Knight Shift]

But see, that's the thing.

All the people who want to blame whale deaths on sonar mapping overlook the fact that said mapping isn't some kind of ongoing, 24/7/365 thing. Based on AIS traffic, there's no such thing going on now, for instance. And, like I said, no one has ever established an actual mechanism of injury.

The "arguments" are a lot of finger pointing, hand waving and connecting a lot of dots in an attempt to assert sonar mapping is a cause. One would think that oceanographers and those versed in whale behavior could tag the whales and do some controlled experiments to track the movement patterns? Maybe this has been done and it has been lost in all of the (non-sonar) noise?

 

[RU4Real]

The "arguments" are a lot of finger pointing, hand waving and connecting a lot of dots in an attempt to assert sonar mapping is a cause. One would think that oceanographers and those versed in whale behavior could tag the whales and do some controlled experiments to track the movement patterns? Maybe this has been done and it has been lost in all of the (non-sonar) noise?

Tagging whales isn't the easiest thing in the world. You can't catch them, so to tag them you have to harpoon them.

For some reason, whales seem to have something against having harpoons stuck in them.

 

[Knight Shift]

Tagging whales isn't the easiest thing in the world. You can't catch them, so to tag them you have to harpoon them.

For some reason, whales seem to have something against having harpoons stuck in them.

Yet the fat SOBs willingly swim into ships.
#NoQuarter

 

[Eagleton95.99]

Whales come up? And how! Lots of 'em washing up on the beaches of the Jersey Shore!

Really? Clean Ocean Action and Cindy Zipf, who have been vocal on the topic are "oil industry operatives" and not an "actual environmental group." Perhaps your own bias is showing?

For the record, I'm open-minded on the issue. And to be fair, none of the dead whales which washed up on the beaches recently were found to be caused by issues associated with windmills. Many of them were injured by boats.

https://cleanoceanaction.org/about-coa/staff

https://cleanoceanaction.org/about-coa

https://tworivertimes.com/community-and-environmentalists-question-source-of-whale-deaths/

I've known Cindy for 30 years. I'm so disappointed in her I can't believe it. Unfortunately she is not credible at all. She is not an expert on whale mortality. And she's way out of her lane. She's been duped by some oil industry people and now she can't climb down from her tree. Groups like the NJ League of Conservation Voters and Association of NJ Environmental Commissions, and frankly everyone else, are all in agreement that the whale thing is BS and we need wind.

 

[Eagleton95.99]

The shore will always be there. Just further back.

The people worried about their views being ruined...won't have houses to view from.

 

[RU4Real]

To further my own interest in this debate, I've reached out to my favorite niece, who works for the state DEP and is an actual marine biologist.

 

[Knight Shift]

I've known Cindy for 30 years. I'm so disappointed in her I can't believe it. Unfortunately she is not credible at all. She is not an expert on whale mortality. And she's way out of her lane. She's been duped by some oil industry people and now she can't climb down from her tree. Groups like the NJ League of Conservation Voters and Association of NJ Environmental Commissions, and frankly everyone else, are all in agreement that the whale thing is BS and we need wind.

I don't have a view on the windmill issue either way, but do you know for a fact that Cindy has been "duped by some oil industry people?"

Some background info, but Cindy and her organization are not mentioned.

https://www.fastcompany.com/9085640...its-about-whales-but-theyre-funded-by-big-oil

https://www.fastcompany.com/90839068/why-are-so-many-whales-dying-on-the-jersey-shore

https://www.sierraclub.org/new-jers...e-correlating-wind-turbine-construction-whale

 

[tom1944]

I've known Cindy for 30 years. I'm so disappointed in her I can't believe it. Unfortunately she is not credible at all. She is not an expert on whale mortality. And she's way out of her lane. She's been duped by some oil industry people and now she can't climb down from her tree. Groups like the NJ League of Conservation Voters and Association of NJ Environmental Commissions, and frankly everyone else, are all in agreement that the whale thing is BS and we need wind.

Whale Hater.

You probably have a "Save the Squid" bumper sticker.

 

[tom1944]

I don't have a view on the windmill issue either way, but do you know for a fact that Cindy has been "duped by some oil industry people?"

Some background info, but Cindy and her organization are not mentioned.

https://www.fastcompany.com/9085640...its-about-whales-but-theyre-funded-by-big-oil

https://www.fastcompany.com/90839068/why-are-so-many-whales-dying-on-the-jersey-shore

https://www.sierraclub.org/new-jers...e-correlating-wind-turbine-construction-whale

Was the initial argument against windmills to save the birds? I guess that did not get traction.

 

[Knight Shift]

Was the initial argument against windmills to save the birds? I guess that did not get traction.

Did she say that? Seems that people want to tar and feather Cindy Zipf and her organization. I don't know her, but I did a bit of research. COA and Zipf were in favor of a phased-in development of wind farms, with a study conducted with 50 pilot plants before moving the mass commercialization. It seems that the right here, right now crowd thinks there is no time for such a study and that mass development and commercialization must start right away to stop the impending climate doom.

I don't find COA's approach to be unreasonable. It seems she has used the whale deaths as a rallying cry, which seems misplaced considering the increasing population of whales along the Atlantic shores. With a lot more whales, it is reasonable to expect more dead whales washing ashore.

This may be a good example of someone going off their original message and then clouding their message and their credibility. It is kind of amusing to see a reputable environmental organization being lumped in with some right wing nutjobs. Hardly helps the organization's credibility, and that helps when people want to paint the organization as "fringe."

https://www.workboat.com/wind/new-j...extended-public-comment-on-ocean-wind-project

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...ost-nj-not-blown-away-climate-change/2883714/

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/202...-massive-scale-of-offshore-wind-turbine-plan/

 

[e5fdny]

To further my own interest in this debate, I've reached out to my favorite niece, who works for the state DEP and is an actual marine biologist.

Does she work with this guy…

 

[RU4Real]

Does she work with this guy…

Nope. Actual marine biologist. Rutgers trained. Spent her Jr year in Antarctica and was one of the original design/build team on the famed Rutgers marine glider.

She's also, as it turns out, one of the state DEP lead reps on Wind1 or whatever it's called. She's coming over for dinner tomorrow night and we're going to deep-dive the project.

And that, my friends, is how we learn.

 

[tom1944]

Did she say that? Seems that people want to tar and feather Cindy Zipf and her organization. I don't know her, but I did a bit of research. COA and Zipf were in favor of a phased-in development of wind farms, with a study conducted with 50 pilot plants before moving the mass commercialization. It seems that the right here, right now crowd thinks there is no time for such a study and that mass development and commercialization must start right away to stop the impending climate doom.

I don't find COA's approach to be unreasonable. It seems she has used the whale deaths as a rallying cry, which seems misplaced considering the increasing population of whales along the Atlantic shores. With a lot more whales, it is reasonable to expect more dead whales washing ashore.

This may be a good example of someone going off their original message and then clouding their message and their credibility. It is kind of amusing to see a reputable environmental organization being lumped in with some right wing nutjobs. Hardly helps the organization's credibility, and that helps when people want to paint the organization as "fringe."

https://www.workboat.com/wind/new-j...extended-public-comment-on-ocean-wind-project

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...ost-nj-not-blown-away-climate-change/2883714/

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/202...-massive-scale-of-offshore-wind-turbine-plan/

I was not referring to Cindy Z. I was making a general statement about those jumping on the whale bandwagon.

I was wondering when the birds stopped being a concern

 

[newell138]

Was the initial argument against windmills to save the birds? I guess that did not get traction.

my initial argument was about the cost and who will be paying for it as well as the unknown effect on the environment.

We know there will be massive bird deaths, this is going right in the middle of one of the major migratory paths of so many birds. Cape May is one of the most popular destinations for birders around the world in the fall.

 

[tom1944]

my initial argument was about the cost and who will be paying for it as well as the unknown effect on the environment.

We know there will be massive bird deaths, this is going right in the middle of one of the major migratory paths of so many birds. Cape May is one of the most popular destinations for birders around the world in the fall.

Are they going to ban cats in Cape May County?

 

[CERU00]

Bulldoze it.

New Jersey has, historically, done a **** job of caring for its barrier islands and back bay shores.

That's putting it generously...

 

[fg7321]

Love the fake crocodile tears from all the nouveau environmentalists now about wind turbines . First it was the birds then the whales. Anything for the agenda againast the transformation of our energy infrastructure away from fossil fuels.

You know what lets build oil drilling platforms instead real close so all the NIMBYs can enjoy that view instead of a wind turbine 15 miles out to sea. I'm sure your all ok with that .