OT: Inflation

[msualohadog]

14 year teacher here on my second career (retired military). I've worked both in the schools and at a large metro school district central office. I truly enjoy teaching, especially at a Title I school where I currently work. I am well versed in this topic and lobbied for Perkins funding for 3 years in Washington D.C.. All that said, I offer the following:

- Teachers are very passionate people who genuinely care about making sure every child has the ability to learn. There are good and bad, but my experience has been mostly good. Most of them do not inflate grades for any agenda or external pressure. They genuinely want the kid to succeed and also get worn down (mainly by parents). Teachers are empathetic to a fault. There's no republican or democratic master plan.

- As for grades improving over the years, it's a myriad of factors. Standards based teaching is a huge cornerstone in children mastering tasks. What they do not touch on, however, is the rigor of the class being taught. Teachers can go much faster and more in-depth at affluent school classes because the average kid in a 20 student classroom can grasp the content. In Title I schools, the average student doesn't have the knowledge/mastery to allow the teacher to progress. This is every class in every grade K-12. The small differences in pacing add up throughout the years. I was teaching a class on variable vs fixed expenses and asked my class "who knows variable means?". Nobody raised their hand. At this point, the class is no longer about finance, it's a vocabulary lesson. Rigor is the key limiting factor, not mastery.

- ACT and SAT scores measure affluence as much as knowledge. I worked closely with our research department in our metro central office. Our statistics nerds did several presentations at Harvard showing the nearly direct linkage between income and testing of our students. You can lay the charts over one another and they match almost directly. This isn't a political statement, just a fact I do not have an answer for. College admittance relying predominately on test scores isn't the way.

- Attendance plays a huge factor in educating in poverty. The average urban inner city child starts kindergarten at a 500 vocabulary word deficit and graduates at roughly a 1,500 word vocabulary deficit. These words aren't taught at school, they're learned in conversations in their surroundings, peers and family. The average inner city student misses 21 days of school every year. Given 20 school days average per month, a child misses ONE YEAR of school over their K-12 tenure. They start 500 words behind and miss an entire year of school before they graduate.

- "Politically speaking" I work with a bunch of different teachers who have very wide ranging views of the world. Our school is 2,900 students with 84% free and reduced lunch (the politically correct way to say poor and minority). Our teacher population ranges widely, best put by one of us saying we look like Hartsfield Atlanta Airport. I offer one of the biggest positives a child can have is learning in this environment. Private schools offer giving students and education where everything and everyone has the same thinking is a limitation in my mind, not an advantage. Expose your kids to different viewpoints. I promise they'll impress you with what they learn and are able to discern from teachers with whom they don't agree.

- Values and culture are a huge obstacle in Title I schools. Kids don't have family structure and don't learn discipline and respect at home don't do well in school. I battle this every day. Throwing money at these schools does not and never will solve the problem. We have tons of Title I funding at my school, yet none of it helps a kid who just wants to wander the halls and get out of class and argue with authority. They learn this at home. Stop blaming schools.

- Schools systems cannot answer for everything to everybody. If I was education czar for a day, I would do away with 95% of the electives, extra curriculars, and fluff and just concentrate on core classes like math, science, reading, and social studies. Get them in and get them out by noon. You feed them lunch. If they want to play football or other sports go to the YMCA. Why should schools, who's job it is to educate, be held responsible for football? (I love football and all sports, btw).

Sorry for the rant. I hope some of you found this at least a little bit interesting.

 

[mstateglfr]

Right. We can't make a perfect world, but I'm in no way opposed to the idea of giving folks without any choices (usually that means they are poor or live in moronsville) more options to weigh. That should be a bipartisan value.

While it was sold as a program to achieve the above, the voucher income cutoff for a family of 4 is something like $170k. Get the 17 out of here - that's a money grab for folks that don't need it and nothing more.

Starting this fall, there is no income cap for vouchers in my state. Seriously- its available to anyone regardless of household income. It is so clearly a money grab.
And the private schools dont have to account for how any of the tax dollars are spent. Its legally required that all public districts follow spending laws and be audited multiple times a year to show how tax dollars are spent, but those same tax dollars in the hands of private schools are a mystery.

Its a clear money grab and its a total insult to how public funds should be managed and reviewed.

Oh, and as easily predicted- private school tuition has surged all across the state these last 2 years. The local Diocese even slashed their spending on a large local Catholic HS from $1.6MM to $400K because they dont have to help fund the school when literally every kid that already pays the tuition is getting $7800 extra from the state. Tuition has increased, of course.

 

[johnson86-1]

You can adjust for income, race, zip, etc and it's still an extremely strong correlation. Obviously, parents active in a kid's education is going to give even more of a slingshot.

Even the mere presence of books in a 3 year old's home produces more positive outcomes- which is why Dolly Parton's Imagination Library might just be my favorite charity out there.

That's a lot of words to say I was right, thank you.

I'm sure you actually realize this, but just in case you actually forgot or your ego jedi-mind tricked yourself into thinking you made a different point, I've highlighted the statement again that was the joke.

 

[johnson86-1]

Now that well-off parents of school-aged kids have figured out they can legislate rebates for their private school tuition under the guise that they are doing it for the kids that truly have no good school choices, this train isn't stopping. That's what it feels like here in TN at least.

What do you think the system looks like when more states or the federal government get behind a vouchering system? Not arguing there aren't systematic issues that need to be fixed in public, but we seem to be headed towards a chaotic environment where public entities will be defunded to pay for subsidies to attend private. And most of those dollars will simply inflate private costs for parents of students already there and not achieve the goal of enabling kids in bad school districts to choose a better alternative IMO based on how its working out in states that have adopted already.

I'm not sure I've heard any articulated vision of what the education system is meant to look like after throwing public dollars onto a private market. Does it "fix" anything or just move problems around and different groups of people controlling tax dollars?

It does not fix the problems that come from home. It does give people in marginal situations with parents that care a chance though, which is a big percentage of students.

While throwing the full administrative burden onto private or charter schools would defeat the purpose of school choice, you do need some sort of obligation on schools receiving vouchers to take students that are not affluent. If you want a school like Prep or JA to be able to get voucher money, you need to put some sort of requirement where at least X% of students be from households less than X% of the median income.

But there are plenty of private schools that operate at less than the cost per student of public schools while providing a much better education, but they aren't spending on SPED, they don't run buses, and probably most importantly, they don't put up with dangerous or extremely disruptive students.

 

[johnson86-1]

Right. We can't make a perfect world, but I'm in no way opposed to the idea of giving folks without any choices (usually that means they are poor or live in moronsville) more options to weigh. That should be a bipartisan value.

While it was sold as a program to achieve the above, the voucher income cutoff for a family of 4 is something like $170k. Get the 17 out of here - that's a money grab for folks that don't need it and nothing more.

Why would you want any parents to have to pay to get their kid out of a bad environment? I have seen kids have horrible times at otherwise decent schools just because of being ill treated by the other students there. We're paying taxes for their kids to get educated. What would be so horrible about those dollars educating them at a different place where they aren't miserable and don't get bullied?

 

[dorndawg]

I'm sure you actually realize this, but just in case you actually forgot or your ego jedi-mind tricked yourself into thinking you made a different point, I've highlighted the statement again that was the joke.

I think you might not be grasping the material - maybe try reading it a little slower? I'll try to simplify it as much as possible:

the number of books and children’s books at home predicted students’ academic language comprehension

 

[johnson86-1]

Starting this fall, there is no income cap for vouchers in my state. Seriously- its available to anyone regardless of household income. It is so clearly a money grab.
And the private schools dont have to account for how any of the tax dollars are spent. Its legally required that all public districts follow spending laws and be audited multiple times a year to show how tax dollars are spent, but those same tax dollars in the hands of private schools are a mystery.

Its a clear money grab and its a total insult to how public funds should be managed and reviewed.

Oh, and as easily predicted- private school tuition has surged all across the state these last 2 years. The local Diocese even slashed their spending on a large local Catholic HS from $1.6MM to $400K because they dont have to help fund the school when literally every kid that already pays the tuition is getting $7800 extra from the state. Tuition has increased, of course.

The reason schools have all those requirements on them is that they aren't accountable to parents or to customers/clients. Not sure how it works in Iowa, but I guarantee you the private schools in Mississippi are much more accountable on average than public schools.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Would you rather have a say in it or not? That's where I'd fall in this all. I want a say in who is overseeing our education. It cuts my vote from a board member and super to just one board member. I don't want government choosing a damn thing for me, give me the option. Simply put standard requirements for running for the office in every district then let us vote.
As for schools, start burning asses and booting troubled kids and parents. Tell their asses they can teach their own kids if they can't handle them. It's time to stop letting those kids 17 up everything for the rest of the kids. Maybe throw them into a fast track vocational program and send the to the work force when they hit the work age. But if they open up school choice, lots of schools will shut down in rural MS IMO, and honestly they should be.

The problem with elected school superintendents is they have to live where they are running so in a rural school district you’re really limiting who can be put in that position. I saw Tunica County several years ago elect someone who had zero business being the superintendent. School district was in bad shape and he made it even worse to the point the state had to take over. It was a disaster.

You can either have the people elect an idiot or have your elected school board do it.

 

[mstateglfr]

The reason schools have all those requirements on them is that they aren't accountable to parents or to customers/clients. Not sure how it works in Iowa, but I guarantee you the private schools in Mississippi are much more accountable on average than public schools.

Nope. That is a buhlshit attempt at differentiation and justification.


First off, public schools are absolutely accountable to parents and to residence of the district. This accountability is seen through school district elections as well as community town halls and meetings.

Secondly, public funds should be accounted for when it comes to public services. If a private company is providing those public services, the public should be able to see how the tax money is being spent.
It is very simple. Public money for public services like education must be accounted for and available to audit.


I should be shocked that you are pushing back on supporting tax funds being accounted for since you are a supporter of this circus doge initiative, but here I am totally unsurprised.

 

[00Dawg]

Having a HS junior and an 8th grader, I'll throw my two cents in on a few things:
1. The ACT curve has flattened in the upper ranges (27-36 or so). The same percentage of testing students that scored a 31 when I took it in the mid-90's now scores a 35 or 36. I knew something was up when my daughter mentioned two seniors in her band (not a large group) scored a 36. IIRC, there wasn't a single 36 in the entire freshman class at State in 1996. So, I ran the numbers and came back with that info above.

2. I've been around my kids' peers a lot. They're generally not smarter than their forbearers, and in many cases, are greatly lacking comparatively in areas like focus and discipline. There are always exceptions. For the standardized testing score impact, it's all about test prep. More teachers are teaching to the test, more online resources are available by many orders of magnitude, and you can even get a copy of certain tests afterwards with answers. I literally reviewed the ACT my daughter recently took. It was about the same level of difficulty that I remember from decades ago.

3. Where the generations now in school do surpass us is exposure to things like genetics (those pieces of my daughter's biology textbook were fascinating), and for the ones in robotics or coding, familiarity with those topics.

4. Then there's math in general. My oldest had some of the "new math" attempted to be taught to her, and my youngest got it full bore. We stepped in and taught him old school pretty quickly. Prior to that, he and his classmates were embarrassingly lacking....me at that age would've lapped them. By the time we were done correcting him, he was close to my competence at that age, and he's a sharp cookie. My daughter is very right-brained and promptly ejects every math concept she learns, so no luck there.
My theory is that the new math brings up the bottom of the curve, but holds the sharper students back. We saw some confirmation of that when we attempted to move my son to a classical school...they had concepts on their entry test he'd never seen.

5. One of the drawbacks to #1 is that more and more schools are not rewarding ACT scores that used to get decent scholarship money. Don't believe me? Check out State's scholarship PDFs from the last few years and this year. The goal posts didn't just move...some were ripped up.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

This is the exact opposite of what I experience with my daughter. I went to Catholic School and took the higher level classes. My daughter is in Florida public schools and her classes are way more advanced than mine were by 8th grade. Robotics and Coding in engineering. Borderline trig in her Geometry classes. I do think her history and English are about where we were.

I hate we disagree. The public schools here are fantastic, but they are more worried about the teachings to get them ready for standardized testing. I would still rather have the education that my other children, who are two older children, got from a private school in Mississippi. It may have possibly been the teachers. He was just a number here in public school. I remember them saying they had NO extra time to spend with him just because he was more intelligent than the other kids when he was in a private school in Mississippi. He had more choices here.

 

[ckDOG]

Why would you want any parents to have to pay to get their kid out of a bad environment? I have seen kids have horrible times at otherwise decent schools just because of being ill treated by the other students there. We're paying taxes for their kids to get educated. What would be so horrible about those dollars educating them at a different place where they aren't miserable and don't get bullied?

You're twisting what I said. I said providing choices to the choiceless is a good thing. Same reason I think it's wise to subsidize healthcare for people who can't obtain/afford it. Neither are rights, but investments by wealthy moral societies interested in their long term stability. I don't want anyone to be trapped in a bad school/situation - just like you.

My point is I'm very skeptical that the people papering up the solutions are genuinely concerned with that and intend to mostly finance decisions that have already been made by the people who already can afford a choice. That's a waste and money grab.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

Grade inflation that is... Are K-12 schools just pumping grades to over inflate their standings, nurse the egos of average students, and appease snow plow parents?

I have several high school kids that work for me and the local paper recently published the list of all the kids that made honor roll. I read through it to see which of my employees made it and gave them all $20 if they did. While reading I noticed a lot of names on the list and started counting how many seniors had made it.

Then I thought, maybe the AP extended scale was skewing it so I started looking at middle school and the numbers were the same. +/-70% of the kids from 7th-12th grade made honor roll (3.5 or above.) 35-40% have a 4.0 or above.

We are a small district that has 2 elementary schools, 1 middle school, and 1 high school. As far as public schools go, it's hard to beat. We are number 1 in the state and top 2-3% nationally by most publications, with the biggest dings coming from our lack of diversity.... But all that said I am calling absolute bullshìt on 70 out of 92 seniors having a 3.5 or above and 74 out of 101 7th graders.

It appears it's a national phenomenon. Most schools no longer give out zeros. If you don't do your work, you get a 50 now apparently. There trying to get away from letter grades and go to "standards based grading" at the younger levels. I get that Kindergartners have always gotten 2 elephants, a giraffe, and a porcupine for grades and that's fine .. but 4th-5th grade?

I'm sure it's probably infected private schools too, but hopefully not as bad.

Quick Blog Post Explaining Grade Inflation


Anyhow, I never realized how bad this crap has gotten. As a long time proponent of public schools, I humbly tip my hat to many of you Charter/Private/Home School folks. Might start looking that direction myself.

In short, yes. Most schools don't allow any grades below a 50 and rarely are you allowed to fail students for a class. Homework isn't a thing. Every assignment can be turned in late. There's no accountability.

 

[mstateglfr]

Having a HS junior and an 8th grader, I'll throw my two cents in on a few things:
1. The ACT curve has flattened in the upper ranges (27-36 or so). The same percentage of testing students that scored a 31 when I took it in the mid-90's now scores a 35 or 36. I knew something was up when my daughter mentioned two seniors in her band (not a large group) scored a 36. IIRC, there wasn't a single 36 in the entire freshman class at State in 1996. So, I ran the numbers and came back with that info above.
...
5. One of the drawbacks to #1 is that more and more schools are not rewarding ACT scores that used to get decent scholarship money. Don't believe me? Check out State's scholarship PDFs from the last few years and this year. The goal posts didn't just move...some were ripped up.

Hear me out on this- state school funding from the state has been chopped significantly in a ton of states over the last 25 years. As a result, merit scholarships to state schools are nothing close to what they used to be. This can be seen even over the last 8 years with schools that offer merit scholarship using a chart. The charts have changed a lot- MSU, Mizzou, Missouri S&T, Iowa State, Truman State, and others are ones that I have tracked and seen the changes.
There is a direct timeline connection between changes to universities with established merit charts and higher education funding cuts in Iowa, Missouri, Mississippi, and elsewhere.

Between 2016 and 2018 for example, $107 MILLION was cut from Mississippi's Higher Learning budget. https://www.mississippifreepress.or...s-prompt-talk-of-tuition-hikes-consolidation/

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Nope. That is a buhlshit attempt at differentiation and justification.


First off, public schools are absolutely accountable to parents and to residence of the district. This accountability is seen through school district elections as well as community town halls and meetings.

Secondly, public funds should be accounted for when it comes to public services. If a private company is providing those public services, the public should be able to see how the tax money is being spent.
It is very simple. Public money for public services like education must be accounted for and available to audit.


I should be shocked that you are pushing back on supporting tax funds being accounted for since you are a supporter of this circus doge initiative, but here I am totally unsurprised.

Not discounting all of what you are saying, but I think he makes a valid point about private school leadership facing more scrutiny from parents than public school leaders. Private school parents can easily pull their money from year to year. Most public school families cannot do that.
Yes, public funds should be accounted for. If private school takes public funding, it should be audited by the public.
Further food for thought: In most areas, publicly elected school officials receive votes from people with no kids in school. Look at the recent superintendent dismissal in Memphis. She appeared to have overwhelming support from the actual parents, but the board that fired her doesn’t care because they have enough support from other people to keep being elected. Carry on.

 

[00Dawg]

Hear me out on this- state school funding from the state has been chopped significantly in a ton of states over the last 25 years. As a result, merit scholarships to state schools are nothing close to what they used to be. This can be seen even over the last 8 years with schools that offer merit scholarship using a chart. The charts have changed a lot- MSU, Mizzou, Missouri S&T, Iowa State, Truman State, and others are ones that I have tracked and seen the changes.
There is a direct timeline connection between changes to universities with established merit charts and higher education funding cuts in Iowa, Missouri, Mississippi, and elsewhere.

Between 2016 and 2018 for example, $107 MILLION was cut from Mississippi's Higher Learning budget. https://www.mississippifreepress.or...s-prompt-talk-of-tuition-hikes-consolidation/

Oh, I'm aware there are multiple factors. The tuition and housing hikes are significant, and I expect they are a better reflection of what you're pointing out, while schools changing the ACT benchmarks are a reflection that more and more kids have figured out how to game standardized testing.

 

[615dawg]

I would argue that in my experience, private school administrators have more accountability.

If the boat rocks enough at a private school, parents are going to demand action or they will pull their kids (and money). That rarely happens in a public school. Look at the scandals across the nation. Plus, there is a concept of "failing up" in public education.

Years ago, I worked with an administrator that was one of the most corrupt, dumbest people I have ever been around. I pulled her dissertation from one of our esteemed HBCUs because it was shocking that she had a Ph.D. (The dissertation was something that wouldn't have passed a middle school English class, but I digress). This principal found her self in hot water situations on a daily basis. She would say inappropriate things to students, parents.

One night at a parent's assembly, she said something that the entire community heard that should have had her fired by the next morning. The school district was under immense pressure to get her out of the school, so they promoted her to a district office admin job, which came with a nice raise.

That sort of thing does not happen in a private school environment. People get fired.

 

[mstateglfr]

Not discounting all of what you are saying, but I think he makes a valid point about private school leadership facing more scrutiny from parents than public school leaders. Private school parents can easily pull their money from year to year. Most public school families cannot do that.
Yes, public funds should be accounted for. If private school takes public funding, it should be audited by the public.
Further food for thought: In most areas, publicly elected school officials receive votes from people with no kids in school. Look at the recent superintendent dismissal in Memphis. She appeared to have overwhelming support from the actual parents, but the board that fired her doesn’t care because they have enough support from other people to keep being elected. Carry on.

I agree there can be more scrutiny from parents at the private level. In general it will be a more involved or more ready to threaten change group. And there is intimacy in the private school setting that wont exist in public districts simply due to enrollment size, so leadership is more directly accountable to parents.
That totally makes sense.

What doesnt make sense is using that as justification/defense of not requiring public funds be accounted for and audited.
Cool that you agree public funds handed over to private schools should be subject to spending regulations and auditing just like public schools.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

Not discounting all of what you are saying, but I think he makes a valid point about private school leadership facing more scrutiny from parents than public school leaders. Private school parents can easily pull their money from year to year. Most public school families cannot do that.
Yes, public funds should be accounted for. If private school takes public funding, it should be audited by the public.
Further food for thought: In most areas, publicly elected school officials receive votes from people with no kids in school. Look at the recent superintendent dismissal in Memphis. She appeared to have overwhelming support from the actual parents, but the board that fired her doesn’t care because they have enough support from other people to keep being elected. Carry on.

I always thought I would keep my kids in traditional public schools and I still may, but as they get older and I am learning about who they are and what they need, I'm eyeballing a charter school that bills itself as a "Classical Academy." It's a curriculum put together by Hillsdale College, a Christian College out of Michigan. I don't care that it's Christian any more than if it were Catholic, but I really like the defined education that focuses on forcing kids to learn important topics vs the more modern public school approach of assessing the best way to teach each individual kid on how they learn best and then trying to teach a bland standard. As someone on here said best, there is way too much assessing and not enough teaching.

I appreciate that the kids on the fringe do need the watered down approach, my kids are not on the fringes and are high achievers. They are not getting pushed at all and if I learned anything from my upbringing that I want to instill in them, its that nothing is more important than learning how to push yourself. I would like for them to be in an environment where that is encouraged.


Here's a map of some the schools adopting the curriculum across the country:

Classical Academies

Here's what the curriculum looks like. I think its outstanding vs the five mile long list of standards taught by grade level the state puts out:

Curriculum


And this is the school's core values:

Courage: Be Brave

Courage is the state of mind that enables one to face danger or fear with confidence. Aristotle tells us that a courageous person will fear things but will endure them for the sake of the noble. In the face of danger or challenge, courage is a firm conviction—with appropriate levels of fear and confidence—that compels one to accomplish and pursue that which is noble and worthy.

Courtesy: Be Kind and Respectful

Courtesy is both demonstrating good manners and displaying a willingness or generosity to show kindness and respect toward others. Courtesy contributes to a culture of civility on campus. George Washington famously kept a copy of 110 “Rules of Civility in Conversations Amongst Men.” Many of the rules served as practical guidelines for courteous living. Washington emphasized that our actions ought to portray a sign of respect for others around us, regardless of their standing, rank, or position.

Honesty: Always Tell the Truth

Honesty is derived from the Latin formulation integritas. Integritas literally means “intact”—or the state of being whole and undivided—in other words, the truth and nothing but the whole truth. Aristotle wrote that an ethical person should not only be honest, but should be a lover of truth. Such a person would be truthful in situations in which being honest would make no immediate difference. In other words, as C.S. Lewis once said, “Integrity is doing the right thing, even if nobody is watching.”

Perseverance: Never Give Up

Perseverance means to steadfastly pursue a course of action or a purpose, often in the face of obstacles or discouragement. As the well-known poem reminds us, if at first you don’t succeed, try, try again…if you will persevere, you will conquer, never fear…try, try again! In 1771, Samuel Adams exhorted his fellow patriots: “Instead of sitting down satisfied with the efforts we have already made…the necessity of the times, more than ever, calls for our utmost circumspection, deliberation, fortitude, and perseverance.”

Self-government: Practice Self-Control

Self-government is the ability to “rule over oneself.” As Socrates states in the Platonic dialogues, a man should be temperate and a master of himself, and ruler of his own pleasures and passions. Aristotle described a self-restrained person as someone who, on account of reason, does not follow their base desires. It takes education and practice to develop the characteristics of self-government—self-control, moderation, prudence, and restraint. Effective self-governance promotes a civil and orderly culture and leads to an increase in liberty for both individuals and societies alike.

Service: Help Others

Service is an active disposition toward assisting in the needs of, or promoting the welfare of others. It is a willingness to stand with others in their need and to provide help to the point of self-sacrifice. One of the most enduring examples of service is that of the good Samaritan, who not only rendered first aid to a wounded stranger, but also paid for his restorative care. The good Samaritan represents a model of selfless and sacrificial generosity to a person in need.

---

"A man should be temperate and a master of himself, and ruler of his own pleasures and passions." .... I mean, its like they are speaking directly to me on this one.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

The problem with elected school superintendents is they have to live where they are running so in a rural school district you’re really limiting who can be put in that position. I saw Tunica County several years ago elect someone who had zero business being the superintendent. School district was in bad shape and he made it even worse to the point the state had to take over. It was a disaster.

You can either have the people elect an idiot or have your elected school board do it.

Would be simple to eliminate that rule for that position. Once tax money is moving county to county with kids, why can't that rule change? A quick vote by elected officials would do it. But again, it's the government. And it's an excuse. The counties around me are still only hiring supers in the county any at, because it's a buddy/family member. I know one county where I've got property who has a super who lives outside the county right now, and he used to live there but moved when he got the well-paying job.

 

[StillTbonewannabe]

Anyone have that Physics professor around the late 90s or early 2000s that your homework grade was 25 - 50% or your grade. Only problem was, you read the chapter and did the homework, the next day he would grade it and then teach the material.

I apparently sucked at teaching myself Physics because I got a D.

 

[mstateglfr]

I always thought I would keep my kids in traditional public schools and I still may, but as they get older and I am learning about who they are and what they need, I'm eyeballing a charter school that bills itself as a "Classical Academy." It's a curriculum put together by Hillsdale College, a Christian College out of Michigan. I don't care that it's Christian any more than if it were Catholic, but I really like the defined education that focuses on forcing kids to learn important topics vs the more modern public school approach of assessing the best way to teach each individual kid on how they learn best and then trying to teach a bland standard. As someone on here said best, there is way too much assessing and not enough teaching.

Well this is genuinely interesting and the Academies link is something I am definitely going to read into.
I will admit that seeing its Hillsdale set off some loud alarms for me since, well, that place proudly promotes a White Christian Nationalist viewpoint and was actively part of creating Project 2025's initiatives.
That isnt an organization that I would want leading my children's education.

With that said, I do recognize that objectionable groups can have good ideas, so its worth learning about their Academy project.

I really like the defined education that focuses on forcing kids to learn important topics vs the more modern public school approach of assessing the best way to teach each individual kid on how they learn best and then trying to teach a bland standard.

I agree- kids learning about important topics is...important. Its critical, really.
I have found that my state's Legislature has consistently worked to eliminate the opportunity for many important topics to even be discussed, much less learned.
And its a similar story based on what I have read about the power struggle in multiple rural Idaho school districts over the last 2 years.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Would be simple to eliminate that rule for that position. Once tax money is moving county to county with kids, why can't that rule change? A quick vote by elected officials would do it. But again, it's the government. And it's an excuse. The counties around me are still only hiring supers in the county any at, because it's a buddy/family member. I know one county where I've got property who has a super who lives outside the county right now, and he used to live there but moved when he got the well-paying job.

Just because a position is elected doesn’t mean it’s going to change with a shítty super. Terrible incumbents keep their seats all the time. The good old boy system works the same in elections too. It’s not any better than the other.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

Well this is genuinely interesting and the Academies link is something I am definitely going to read into.
I will admit that seeing its Hillsdale set off some loud alarms for me since, well, that place proudly promotes a White Christian Nationalist viewpoint and was actively part of creating Project 2025's initiatives.
That isnt an organization that I would want leading my children's education.

With that said, I do recognize that objectionable groups can have good ideas, so its worth learning about their Academy project.



I agree- kids learning about important topics is...important. Its critical, really.
I have found that my state's Legislature has consistently worked to eliminate the opportunity for many important topics to even be discussed, much less learned.
And its a similar story based on what I have read about the power struggle in multiple rural Idaho school districts over the last 2 years.

Yeah. They have an info session at the school in a few weeks. May check it out. I figure it's like Catholic School... Just because a priest in Boston touches little boys peens, it doesn't mean a Catholic School in Arkansas is guilty of the priests sins. The curriculum looks solid, but I am really there to see the parents of the kids that attend the school or are applying to do so. It was funded by a major non profit that seems to swing on both sides of the pendulum in the state, but is really pushing to make education better by funding charter schools and that is pisssing in the Cheerios of the public education folks.

 

[johnson86-1]

I think you might not be grasping the material - maybe try reading it a little slower? I'll try to simplify it as much as possible:

the number of books and children’s books at home predicted students’ academic language comprehension

That has never been disputed. Can you really not see the difference between that and the original comment you made?

 

[johnson86-1]

Nope. That is a buhlshit attempt at differentiation and justification.


First off, public schools are absolutely accountable to parents and to residence of the district. This accountability is seen through school district elections as well as community town halls and meetings.

Right. That is why we are famously satisfied with Congress. It's because elections are such an effective method for accountability. And that's why you see so many failing public schools shut down. It's all that accountability. Why without accountability, you might have schools where virtually none of their students read at grade level continue to exist and get taxpayer money year after year.

Secondly, public funds should be accounted for when it comes to public services. If a private company is providing those public services, the public should be able to see how the tax money is being spent.
It is very simple. Public money for public services like education must be accounted for and available to audit.

First, Nobody is suggesting not being able to see how the taxpayer money is spent. But you didn't talk about how taxpayer money is spent, you talked about how money is spent by a private organization that provided a good or service, including how they're not subject to spending laws. I have been on both sides of plenty of government contracts, and never have I seen any counterparty be required to follow public bid laws, unless there was some sort of pass through component. Generally, when you do a RFP for a services or request a quote for goods, you check that you get what you pay for. If you contract out lawn maintenance, you don't get to require that the selected vendor follow public purchasing guidelines when they procure their equipment unless you are doing some sort of weird cost based contract. A major point of contracting it out is having somebody with the right incentives do the cost control.

But certainly you could tie all sorts of things to the vouchers. Making sure a school that receives voucher money track attendance for the students using the voucher would be a perfectly reasonable requirement that actually tracks how taxpayer money is spent. Requiring students participate in statewide testing would be a reasonable requirement that is also tied to seeing the value the taxpayer is getting for taxpayer money. But it's also not a crazy position to think that on the whole, the vast majority of parents want their children to do well and will not be incentivized to try to scam the voucher system and the number of parents that will put their kid in an awful environment or just an environment that doesn't provide an education to get a kickback is going to be too small to justify the costs of much auditing beyond making sure the kid exists and making sure the school exists and that the kid is enrolled.

I should be shocked that you are pushing back on supporting tax funds being accounted for since you are a supporter of this circus doge initiative, but here I am totally unsurprised.

I have missed the part where DOGE has been auditing government contractors that don't have cost based agreements. Maybe they will get there eventually. There are certainly plenty of government entities that include audit provisions in contracts that aren't cost based.

 

[johnson86-1]

You're twisting what I said. I said providing choices to the choiceless is a good thing. Same reason I think it's wise to subsidize healthcare for people who can't obtain/afford it. Neither are rights, but investments by wealthy moral societies interested in their long term stability. I don't want anyone to be trapped in a bad school/situation - just like you.

My point is I'm very skeptical that the people papering up the solutions are genuinely concerned with that and intend to mostly finance decisions that have already been made by the people who already can afford a choice. That's a waste and money grab.

I was responding to your complaint that the income limitations would go up to $170k for a family of four. $170k is certainly not poor, but if they have two kids that for whatever reason don't fit in the government run school they are zoned to, I don't want them to have to pay $15k a year to get them out of it. They are making enough that they are paying taxes and presumably have been paying taxes and will be paying taxes for a long time. We're spending the tax money to educate their kids; if they think that money is better spent in a different school, I want them to be able to use that money to put their kid in the best environment for them, within reason (within reason to me mostly meaning a school that is either in the ball park of what public schools cost or that at least holds a certain percentage of spots for lower income people that can attend for just the voucher)..

 

[mstateglfr]

@johnson86-1
Do you really think that school vouchers going to any private school is equal to an RFP and subsequent PSA?
It seems like you view those as equal, but they are fundamentally completely different.
There is no RFP process with private schools. There is no documentation of services with associated cost. There are no agreed upon performance metrics.

it is absolutely insane to try and claim tax dollars going to any private school is equal to tax dollars going to a vendor that is selected through an RFP process.

I mean, seriously, I actually would have less of an issue with a private school being awarded a contract through an RFP process because cost would be documented and performance metrics would be agreed-upon. Hell, that would be better than what it currently is.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Nope. That is a buhlshit attempt at differentiation and justification.


First off, public schools are absolutely accountable to parents and to residence of the district. This accountability is seen through school district elections as well as community town halls and meetings.

Secondly, public funds should be accounted for when it comes to public services. If a private company is providing those public services, the public should be able to see how the tax money is being spent.
It is very simple. Public money for public services like education must be accounted for and available to audit.


I should be shocked that you are pushing back on supporting tax funds being accounted for since you are a supporter of this circus doge initiative, but here I am totally unsurprised.

 

[mstateglfr]

View attachment 762278

The IRS exists to collect taxes and ensure tax law compliance.
So if an efficiency division comes after them, does that mean the IRS would become even more efficient at collecting taxes?

People paying what they legally owe in taxes seems like a win to me.

 

[johnson86-1]

@johnson86-1
Do you really think that school vouchers going to any private school is equal to an RFP and subsequent PSA?
It seems like you view those as equal, but they are fundamentally completely different.

The point is to differentiate when you have properly aligned incentives. A better example might be SNAP. Grocery stores aren't audited on their purchasing procedures. They are adequately incentivized to get the best price. They are audited to make sure they are providing qualified good in exchange for SNAP benefits, and they are are audited on things like inventory purchases as another way to sniff out fraud, not to check how they purchased the inventory.

There is no RFP process with private schools.

Parents don't issue a formal RFP, but on average you have a better process because incentives are aligned.

There is no documentation of services with associated cost.

Again, you can require verification of attendance; records on teach attendance; teacher student ratios; or just about whatever you can come up with. The cost benefit analysis is very different though when you are dealing with spending where incentives are aligned.

There are no agreed upon performance metrics.

As opposed to public schools? Because they are famously shut down when they are terrible?

But you can have performance metrics if you want. You could disqualify schools from receiving vouchers if their performance on whatever statewide tests falls below whatever threshold. The downside to that is you are going to further discourage schools from taking problem students or weaker students if you don't account for the differences in students.

it is absolutely insane to try and claim tax dollars going to any private school is equal to tax dollars going to a vendor that is selected through an RFP process.

I mean, seriously, I actually would have less of an issue with a private school being awarded a contract through an RFP process because cost would be documented and performance metrics would be agreed-upon. Hell, that would be better than what it currently is.

If you are saying the government issuing an RFP to provide primary and secondary educational services is generally going to have better results than empowering parents to pick the best situation for their child, we are just living in fundamentally different realities.

 

[dorndawg]

That has never been disputed.

Always great to see personal growth in a fellow Bulldog, big round of applause!

 

[ckDOG]

I was responding to your complaint that the income limitations would go up to $170k for a family of four. $170k is certainly not poor, but if they have two kids that for whatever reason don't fit in the government run school they are zoned to, I don't want them to have to pay $15k a year to get them out of it. They are making enough that they are paying taxes and presumably have been paying taxes and will be paying taxes for a long time. We're spending the tax money to educate their kids; if they think that money is better spent in a different school, I want them to be able to use that money to put their kid in the best environment for them, within reason (within reason to me mostly meaning a school that is either in the ball park of what public schools cost or that at least holds a certain percentage of spots for lower income people that can attend for just the voucher)..

We are going to disagree then. A family at that income has the ability to make their own choice with private school or moving school districts. I hate that life threw them a curveball but they can manage without the added assist from a subsidy. I feel it really needs to be focused on low income people and in districts that aren't performing.

Remember, public education exists to provide a service to a community not to make all individuals happy in their educational pursuits. It's why people without school aged kids pay taxes that fund local schools. It's a service meant to benefit the community top down. Designing it to meet the highest standards is an option, but most communities aren't going to commit the effort and resources for that. Most are trying to balance quality and cost.

Further, allowing anyone regardless of income to receive a voucher is going to be a slippery slope for public services stability. Today I'm arguing that I don't like the public education system and want to withdraw and use those funds for private. Tomorrow I'm bitching at the police department and want my taxes withdrawn so I can hire private security or buy a better security system at home. Where would we draw the line?

 

[The Cooterpoot]

The IRS exists to collect taxes and ensure tax law compliance.
So if an efficiency division comes after them, does that mean the IRS would become even more efficient at collecting taxes?

People paying what they legally owe in taxes seems like a win to me.

Simplify the tax code and make things more efficient sounds like a good plan to me

 

[ckDOG]

Simplify the tax code and make things more efficient sounds like a good plan to me

PREACH. And I'm a CPA.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Why don’t we just get rid of all these schools and tell the kids to watch YouTube?

 

[ckDOG]

Why don’t we just get rid of all these schools and tell the kids to watch YouTube?

And read their uncles Facebook posts

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

And read their uncles Facebook posts

It’s where their parents get all their great health and nutrition advice. Such a valuable resource**

 

[mstateglfr]

Simplify the tax code and make things more efficient sounds like a good plan to me

Sure, that sounds great.
But why would Doge be involved with simplifying the tax code? Passing laws is the job of Congress.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

And read their uncles Facebook posts