OT: Possible NCAA Investigation into Michigan Scouting Opponents.
- Thread starter tico brown
- Start date
Partridge seems to be highlighted quite a bit- and the institutional control thing throws lone wolf out the window. and having video of the OSU snap where he and everyone on the sideline is motioning pass- is just a bit condemning. The fact this guy is on your sideline and in the middle of this and his manifesto, that also shows lack of control. BTW- JH already being acknowledged as a guy that sits in a tree outside a recruits house overnight- doesnt paint him all that well here either. And the timing- just about the same time is when he started beating OSU.
Partridge took over PC up in Bergen County which never won and he was despised. At the time the thought was people were just jealous. But he certainly seems the type that could 'bend' rules. Birds of a feather I guess, although Flood did try to get him here.
I’m not sure that guy was being serious about lone wolf. I posted it more for the humor of the tweet than it being factual. Thought it was just a facetious comment that was funny.
Rough evening for Michigan. First, the WaPo story, then a FootballScoop story says Michigan may have attempted to help an opponent of a team that was in competition with Michigan for a college football playoff spot. That takes this thing to a whole new level in severity and possible sanctions.
IMO if the Big Ten Commish doesn't hammer these guys by Monday why is he even there ?
He has the authority and this is an Integrity of the Game issue.
The idea that Coach Harbaugh didn't know this was going on is absurd.
Excerpts from the article:
About that viral video of OSU/Michigan with Stalions on the sideline
A college football signal stealer watched the video on Tuesday, too. He didn’t get it.
Why are people freaking out about this clip?
Pointing to the sky and holding up a Trae Young sign does not give the secondary any tells on where Stroud is throwing the ball. All it does is alert the pass rushers to get after him. The viral clip doesn’t show what happened after the snap: Stroud threw a 4-yard touchdown pass to Emeka Egbuka to put Ohio State up 7-0.
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The lack of awareness about this practice is what’s baffling to our signal stealer, especially given some of the extreme reactions he’s seen over the past week. Again, there’s a clear difference between what Michigan is alleged to have illegally done and what other coaching staffs traditionally do to steal signals. But those who are offended by signal stealing should pay a little attention to their own sideline.
“The average fans who are crying, ‘Oh my gosh, look at them cheat!’ Well, wait ‘til you see your team do it,” he said. “Because I promise you they’re gonna do it this Saturday.”
He fully agrees that off-campus signal scouting is wrong. But he doesn’t want to hear rival coaches deriding standard signal stealing as improper or an integrity issue.
“They all do it to each other,” he said. “That’s what’s so silly to me about the whole thing.”
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In his experience, there’s no need to cross that line. If you spend enough time studying your opponents with a combination of TV broadcast tape and game tape, you’ll find patterns. The process of carefully watching signalers and logging everything he sees is time- and labor-intensive. It’s not easy to watch tape without sound and crack these codes. But it does tend to pay off.
“I promise you, within a day, I could take the average fan and watch three TV copies with them and they’ll know signals by the end of it,” he said. “We’re trying to signal in a play that a college kid has to comprehend. This isn’t rocket science. The signals are not ridiculously tough to figure out.”
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“Teams that use wristbands don’t have anything to worry about,” he said.
“As a signal stealing person myself, if you don’t want me to get all your stuff off TV copy, change your signals,”
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“You can have someone’s whole game plan. They could mail it to you. You’ve still got to stop it,” Sanders said.
The signal stealer’s response to that take?
“I hope we play Colorado,” he said. “Don’t ever change your signals or your signaler and let’s see if it’s just players beat players.”
Another factor to keep in mind: The coaching business is extremely gossipy. The signal stealer’s coaching staff heard the rumors about Michigan filming signals well before the initial Yahoo Sports story emerged. They don’t play Michigan. It doesn’t affect them. They still knew. If a Big Ten staff has any awareness of Michigan’s signal stealing practices and didn’t adjust accordingly, that’s inexcusable.
Here’s how the signal stealer sees it: You can legally get all of this off tape. If you have good enough players and good enough information, you can do damage to the teams that don’t change signals. He agrees Michigan should be punished if the allegations are true. But it’s difficult for him to assess how significant Michigan’s advantage would’ve been.
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Thankfully, Rutgers has been squeaky clean since Greg returned. Michigan, MSU, Northwestern have big issues. Maryland got dinged by Sumlin this week, and Gattis may have Stalions stain on him.
Double edged sword
From the article
At TCU, the school has found no evidence that Stalions purchased a ticket to a home game last season, but there were ample opportunities to record the Horned Frogs in road games or in the Big 12 championship against Kansas State.
Not long after the CFP unveiled the 2022 semifinal matchups — Georgia vs. Ohio State and TCU vs. Michigan — the Horned Frogs staff began receiving phone calls from coaches across the country about what was a well-known fact in the Big Ten coaching community: that Michigan had an elaborate sign-stealing system.
Many of those on the TCU staff were unaware before the calls. Coaches from several Big Ten schools, including Ohio State, informed TCU coaches of the scheme.
“Literally everybody we talked to knew,” said one TCU coach. “They’d say, ‘Just so you know, they steal your signals and they’re going to have everything so you better change them.’”
From the article
At TCU, the school has found no evidence that Stalions purchased a ticket to a home game last season, but there were ample opportunities to record the Horned Frogs in road games or in the Big 12 championship against Kansas State.
Not long after the CFP unveiled the 2022 semifinal matchups — Georgia vs. Ohio State and TCU vs. Michigan — the Horned Frogs staff began receiving phone calls from coaches across the country about what was a well-known fact in the Big Ten coaching community: that Michigan had an elaborate sign-stealing system.
Many of those on the TCU staff were unaware before the calls. Coaches from several Big Ten schools, including Ohio State, informed TCU coaches of the scheme.
“Literally everybody we talked to knew,” said one TCU coach. “They’d say, ‘Just so you know, they steal your signals and they’re going to have everything so you better change them.’”
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Mentioned this a couple times with Venables being notorious for it.
From the article:
In a story about the sign-stealing prevalence across college football, ESPN's Alex Scarborough and Adam Rittenberg reported that LSU believed Clemson attended its games in the SEC Championship and the Peach Bowl semifinal ahead of the two teams' meeting for the 2019 national championship.
When LSU played Clemson in the 2020 College Football Playoff, sources said the staff suspected Clemson of sending people to scout them in the SEC championship game and Peach Bowl.
Now, a few caveats here:
1) Brent Venables, Clemson's defensive coordinator at the time, has long been viewed as one of the game's top sign thieves. Sign stealing in and of itself is not illegal.
LSU went three-and-out in its first two possessions, and punted in its first three. After head coach Ed Orgeron purportedly told offensive coordinator Steve Ensminger to "change it up," LSU scored touchdowns on four of its final five first-half possessions, taking a 28-17 lead en route to a 42-25 victory.
From the article:
In a story about the sign-stealing prevalence across college football, ESPN's Alex Scarborough and Adam Rittenberg reported that LSU believed Clemson attended its games in the SEC Championship and the Peach Bowl semifinal ahead of the two teams' meeting for the 2019 national championship.
When LSU played Clemson in the 2020 College Football Playoff, sources said the staff suspected Clemson of sending people to scout them in the SEC championship game and Peach Bowl.
Now, a few caveats here:
1) Brent Venables, Clemson's defensive coordinator at the time, has long been viewed as one of the game's top sign thieves. Sign stealing in and of itself is not illegal.
LSU went three-and-out in its first two possessions, and punted in its first three. After head coach Ed Orgeron purportedly told offensive coordinator Steve Ensminger to "change it up," LSU scored touchdowns on four of its final five first-half possessions, taking a 28-17 lead en route to a 42-25 victory.
Not sure if this was posted, but this is gold:
Funny thing, this was first drive of game, and tOSU did score a TD on the play.
Funny thing, this was first drive of game, and tOSU did score a TD on the play.
Outstanding paywalled article on thoughts of anonymous legal signal stealing P5 coach on the situation. Small snippets- sign stealing is common, but:
What would be damning? Video evidence of someone filming a team’s sideline on their phone while sitting in a seat paid for by Stalions.
“That would get people in the industry to go, ‘Oh, they’re f—ed,’” he said.
He does not believe Michigan’s alleged scheme is commonplace, calling it “next-level s—” that crosses the line.
The signal stealer isn’t going to name names, but there are certain coaches he’s faced who did not change their signals even after he got them. He jokes that he can’t help but take that personally.
“It’s crazy that you would hurt your team that way,” he argues.
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“You can have someone’s whole game plan. They could mail it to you. You’ve still got to stop it,” Sanders said.
The signal stealer’s response to that take?
“I hope we play Colorado,” he said. “Don’t ever change your signals or your signaler and let’s see if it’s just players beat players.”
What would be damning? Video evidence of someone filming a team’s sideline on their phone while sitting in a seat paid for by Stalions.
“That would get people in the industry to go, ‘Oh, they’re f—ed,’” he said.
He does not believe Michigan’s alleged scheme is commonplace, calling it “next-level s—” that crosses the line.
The signal stealer isn’t going to name names, but there are certain coaches he’s faced who did not change their signals even after he got them. He jokes that he can’t help but take that personally.
“It’s crazy that you would hurt your team that way,” he argues.
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“You can have someone’s whole game plan. They could mail it to you. You’ve still got to stop it,” Sanders said.
The signal stealer’s response to that take?
“I hope we play Colorado,” he said. “Don’t ever change your signals or your signaler and let’s see if it’s just players beat players.”
You know in some way I “thank” Michigan for bringing attention to a problem that could’ve and should’ve been fixed long ago.
You’d think things will go to helmet communication because of this.
Michigan got caught but I wouldn’t assume they’re the only ones who’ve done it. The whole point of no in person scouting was to save costs and not give an advantage between differently resourced ADs. But just like paying players was illegal at one time, you know some with better resources were skirting the rules. Now anyone can do it so theoretically it can be a little more level playing field.
Same here with some schools and their army of analysts and budgets to send anyone anywhere, it was an unfair advantage for those who skirted the rules.
Now because of this, hopefully there should be a move to helmet communication and it can level the playing field a little more.
I’m glad they did it so stupidly and openly so a real solution can be enacted and remove an advantage some schools had over others.
You’d think things will go to helmet communication because of this.
Michigan got caught but I wouldn’t assume they’re the only ones who’ve done it. The whole point of no in person scouting was to save costs and not give an advantage between differently resourced ADs. But just like paying players was illegal at one time, you know some with better resources were skirting the rules. Now anyone can do it so theoretically it can be a little more level playing field.
Same here with some schools and their army of analysts and budgets to send anyone anywhere, it was an unfair advantage for those who skirted the rules.
Now because of this, hopefully there should be a move to helmet communication and it can level the playing field a little more.
I’m glad they did it so stupidly and openly so a real solution can be enacted and remove an advantage some schools had over others.
They are waiting (hoping) that it somehow isn't Michigan (or OSU).
All right, did we figure out who sold tickets to Stalions? @Plum Street - did your thread yield anyone?
"The source who spoke to ESPN Friday said he attended games at Rutgers and Penn State last season and another game at Penn State last month.
"I only did a half because it was pouring rain and they were playing UMass. It didn't pay well enough so I was like, 'yeah, I'm not staying here.'"
He said that before the news of the investigation was made public Stalions also provided him a ticket to this coming Saturday's game between Indiana and Penn State. He does not plan to attend."
"A lot of people may say you can just rip that from the All-22 [wide-shot game film]. Well, it's not that easy," he said. "This makes it easier to mirror things up and get those tendencies."
www.espn.com
"The source who spoke to ESPN Friday said he attended games at Rutgers and Penn State last season and another game at Penn State last month.
"I only did a half because it was pouring rain and they were playing UMass. It didn't pay well enough so I was like, 'yeah, I'm not staying here.'"
He said that before the news of the investigation was made public Stalions also provided him a ticket to this coming Saturday's game between Indiana and Penn State. He does not plan to attend."
"A lot of people may say you can just rip that from the All-22 [wide-shot game film]. Well, it's not that easy," he said. "This makes it easier to mirror things up and get those tendencies."
Man says U-M staffer paid him to tape Big 10 foes
Suspended Michigan football staffer Connor Stalions compensated at least one person for recording future Wolverines opponents with "a couple hundred dollars" and a ticket to a Michigan home game, according to the person.
www.espn.com
While all of that is true- every team is stealing signs or attempting to do so- just like every baseball team since the start of time tries to steal the pitch sign as well.
But, that is not the issue- Michigan is in trouble because they were breaking the rules put in place years ago about travel to oter games and using electronic devices to record the sideline...
Amazing that this still needs to be explained.
It’s a pretty simple rule that Michigan appeared to break . It’s pathetic the BIG hasn’t commented. If Warren was still AD, this board would be killing him
I'm aware of the rules and have been posting news about it and clarifying it for others even.
But this sign stealer guy isn't alone in thinking it's a big hoopla over not much. He too thinks something should happen because it's rule breaking but not from the actual standpoint of thinking it's something wrong or outrageous, I think there's definitely a significant portion of coaches that don't think much of it either because they don't think it's a big deal because they know people do it or they might be doing it themselves but just didn't get caught.
I've seen Bob Stoops be outraged and another anonymous coach be exasperated but then I see plenty of others give tepid comments or say they don't know much about the Michigan stuff etc...yea right. So IMO that means either they know it happens and try to account for it as part of process or they do it themselves.
I said above I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few others have done similar but just haven't been caught like Michigan. LSU suspected Clemson sent scouts to their games. Venables has been widely thought of as a top sign stealer. So among themselves, these coaches know it happens, possibly suspect rule breaking as well, and who are the best at it too.
I mentioned above I see it similar to paying players when it was illegal. That was rule breaking too but coaches and everyone knew it was going on, specifically with the teams with more resources. It's just part of the way things happened. Now everyone can pay players so theoretically no advantage for anyone.
It's why I say I "thank" Michigan because it's brought light to a problem that should've been fixed long ago. I'd like to think the move to helmet communication will come quick after this. And just like everyone being allowed to pay players, it will remove the advantage of teams with more resources skirting the rules.
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What is becoming clear is that Michigan had taken this to a much higher level, and has brazenly violated rules in the process.
They will be hit with lack of institutional control when this all plays out IMO.
Sure but what does that mean in terms of actual penalties?
I think someone mentioned maybe scholarship reduction and/or hit to revenue distribution from the B10. I could see that. I don't know that anything will happen to this current season or banning from this year's CFP/B10 champ game. I'd be surprised if it did.
I don't follow MLB but I don't think they took away any championship from the Astros. I used to follow the NFL and they didn't take away any NE Superbowl and even "burned" the tapes. So with regards to on the field stuff, I'd be surprised if anything happened to any CFP run. Off the field with regards to scholarships or money or even maybe show cause for a coach, that I could see.
I think this is pretty analogous to speed limit infractions.
Few if any, drive 55 in a 55 MPH zone. However Michigan supporters are arguing that it isn’t a big deal that they drove 90 in a 55 mph because everybody else breaks the rules and drives 65.
Well, the penalties get pretty severe (huge fines, potentially losing your license, other charges like reckless driving) once your speeding infraction reaches a speed that shows total disregard for the law and no thought of the impact your behavior could have on others. Well, what better describes how far Michigan appears to have taken this?
As far your comparison to other sports, it is irrelevant because you picked sports that have never used the the type of penalties college football has so the fact they didn’t use them for cheating means nothing.
I think it is applicable because if pro sports were weary and shy of affecting on field results, it's highly dubious that the NCAA will affect on field results. I think pro sports are more likely to be proactive handling things vs college so if they don't do it I wouldn't expect college to do it. Just look at helmet communication which has been done since the 90s in the NFL while college has just been diddling around.
Pros have dinged draft picks, given fines and banned people for a time period and that's off field stuff. If anything I'd expect similar analogous things for college like scholarship, financial hit and/or show cause.