OT: Stawks and jobs

BoDawg.sixpack

All-Conference
Feb 5, 2010
5,384
2,852
113
147k and 4.1% unemployment. How high can the indexes go? I think the NASDAQ can get 23,000 this year. Nvidia and AMD are driving the tech sector (breadth is shallow).

But you know the old saying 'things are never as good (or as bad) as they appear.'
 

Jeffreauxdawg

All-American
Dec 15, 2017
8,818
7,711
113
147k and 4.1% unemployment. How high can the indexes go? I think the NASDAQ can get 23,000 this year. Nvidia and AMD are driving the tech sector (breadth is shallow).

But you know the old saying 'things are never as good (or as bad) as they appear.'
It's kinda a Goldilocks trap. Good jobs numbers are good for the economy, but keep the Fed holding up rates. Weaker jobs numbers are the opposite.

So for EOY NASDAQ prediction...IE my best guess I can pull from my àss. Wars, tariff stuff, and all other forms of scandal can't be accounted for other than guessing. So I just go with the charts...
1000019494.png

We are in a clearly defined rising channel. Tariff news had it breakdown in March, but it bounced off long term (20+ year trend) and is back in the channel and will likely live there until AI becomes a big bubble which may be years. So the channel suggests 23,375 as the top of the range for 2025, 20,300 as the bottom of the EOY range. And 22,000 as the mid point. Give me the mid point.
 

horshack.sixpack

All-American
Oct 30, 2012
11,360
8,258
113
147k and 4.1% unemployment. How high can the indexes go? I think the NASDAQ can get 23,000 this year. Nvidia and AMD are driving the tech sector (breadth is shallow).

But you know the old saying 'things are never as good (or as bad) as they appear.'
I really should’ve bought more NVIDIA instead of IBIT…
 

BoDawg.sixpack

All-Conference
Feb 5, 2010
5,384
2,852
113
We have about another 10 months left with Jerome Powell. He is going scorch earth. He screwed Biden and now Trump. In his Dumb *** Mastery, he is hurting Americans. He has cost American billion in interest rates.

Yea, I understand and acknowledge the role of interest rates in the economy, but I loathe mtg rates. What the banks make off of a 30-year mortgage for a $300,000 home is excessive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MagnoliaHunter

Jeffreauxdawg

All-American
Dec 15, 2017
8,818
7,711
113
As for NVDA... One day I will have to balls to follow my own strategy.

Posted this on March 6th and predicted the exact 17ing spot where Nvidia would bottom off a falling wedge and breakout... But I chickened out and looked for an even lower bottom in all the tariff noise..

1000019497.png


Here's the chart today... Only up 80% in 3 freaking months.

1000019499.png

This is why subs make bad traders. We are weak and enjoy the punishment.
 

johnson86-1

All-Conference
Aug 22, 2012
14,324
4,824
113
Yea, I understand and acknowledge the role of interest rates in the economy, but I loathe mtg rates. What the banks make off of a 30-year mortgage for a $300,000 home is excessive.
I don't know. At 6.7% (which I think is roughly the 30 year rate right now), banks will make $396,900 in interest. They have to pay to administer the loan, make sure it's insured and taxes paid. If the interest rate drops, their debt gets paid off with no prepayment penalty. And if interest rates go up, it's much more likely the homeowner will keep the loan and they will have an underperforming asset. That just doesn't seem like a homerun for the bank?

I mean I get they aren't using their money and when you throw leverage in, it makes it a much, much better deal for them. But in general, if you offer me the chance at an investment where the good case scenario is that I won't even double my money in real terms in 30 years, I'm not begging to be on the other side of that. And that's with interest rates that are relatively high compared to recent history.
 

ckDOG

All-American
Dec 11, 2007
10,006
5,828
113
The good: lower unemployment and net increase in jobs. Jobs jobs jobs.

The bad: weak manufacturing and half of the growth was government (likely fed layoffs finding homes at state/local. I'll lump it as bad for this board which generally considers most govt jobs as bad and would prefer it be private sector)
 

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
15,981
5,825
113
I don't know.
...
I mean I get they aren't using their money and when you throw leverage in, it makes it a much, much better deal for them. But in general, if you offer me the chance at an investment where the good case scenario is that I won't even double my money in real terms in 30 years, I'm not begging to be on the other side of that. And that's with interest rates that are relatively high compared to recent history.
I am confident that almost everyone who was given the chance to reap all the financial benefits from owning a mortgage lending bank, would sign up on the spot.
Lenders make more than just interest off of mortgages...a lot more. It is continued annual revenue since current houses are being bought over and over year after year and new houses are being built year after year.


You are seriously trying to make the case for mortgage lenders not being on the smart side of financial investment and growth, and should perhaps increase interest rates.
 

ckDOG

All-American
Dec 11, 2007
10,006
5,828
113
That Trump Depression that lasted about 2 days was awful.
The funny thing is that nearly everyone took these positions: 1) this sucks and I hate it or 2) this sucks but we deserve to take our medicine and bust the bubble. A reset will be good for us.

Fast forward 2 months and trillions more debt on the table, trade deficit increasing, and bubble getting bigger. Status quo with some some tough guy rhetoric to troll the folks that hate him and give boners to those that worship.
 

Seinfeld

All-American
Nov 30, 2006
11,148
6,968
113
Yea, I understand and acknowledge the role of interest rates in the economy, but I loathe mtg rates. What the banks make off of a 30-year mortgage for a $300,000 home is excessive.
For me, I've never had a huge problem with the rate itself. It's the front loading of interest payments that should be criminal
 
  • Like
Reactions: MagnoliaHunter

johnson86-1

All-Conference
Aug 22, 2012
14,324
4,824
113
I am confident that almost everyone who was given the chance to reap all the financial benefits from owning a mortgage lending bank, would sign up on the spot.
ETA: I am not a good investor, so this may make your point, but I would not sign up for owning a mortgage lending bank. I purposefully don't invest in any banks outside of being invested in them through S&P 500 funds. Just doesn't seem like a great business. Seems like the banks that grow fast usually do so by taking on extra risk or overpaying for acquisitions and I just don't like them in general as an investment class. That said, over the past 10 years, the S&P has outperformed the Dow Jones US Bank index by more than 3.5% on an annualized basis, which is obviously huge. But over the past 5 years, it's almost exactly the opposite, with the Bank index outperforming by a little more than 3% annually. https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/indices/equity/dow-jones-us-banks-index/#overview

But I don't think it's the type of business if you told people that they had to pick something other than an index fund, it's a compelling investment that a lot of people are going to jump to. I'm sure plenty would just because banking is so visible to them, but I think they'd lag significantly behind people investing in tech stocks and probably oil and gas although I'm much less confident about that one.

Lenders make more than just interest off of mortgages...a lot more. It is continued annual revenue since current houses are being bought over and over year after year and new houses are being built year after year.


You are seriously trying to make the case for mortgage lenders not being on the smart side of financial investment and growth, and should perhaps increase interest rates.
I'm not making the argument that they should increase rates, just that they don't seem absurdly high to me. If you let me pay for a $300,000 asset over thirty years, and the rate is low enough that the vast majority of the time, just putting the amount loaned into a simple index fund would perform well enough that it would make sense to take out the mortgage even if you could pay cash, it doesn't seem like the interest rate is excessive.
 
Last edited:

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
15,981
5,825
113
I'm not making the argument that they should increase rates, just that they don't seem absurdly high to me. If you let me pay for a $300,000 asset over thirty years, and the rate is low enough that the vast majority of the time, just putting the amount loaned into a simple index fund would perform well enough that it would make sense to take out the mortgage even if you could pay cash, it doesn't seem like the interest rate is excessive.
Sure, I see why you are saying it isnt excessive.
Mortgages arent just interest paid over 30 years though- there are initial fees that generate a ton of money for lenders, and money paid back early can go to lending and collecting more initial fees or can go to investing in other ways. If the bank loaned $300k and just sat on the money it was paid over 30 years, yeah that would be a bad investment because it could have likely earned more using the money differently. But lenders dont just sit on the money as it is slowly paid back over 30 years. It takes the money paid back and loans it out again, over and over and over.

It seems like your example suggests the loan exists in a vacuum where nothing changes as it is paid off and the money is not touched.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MagnoliaHunter

ZombieKissinger

All-American
May 29, 2013
4,901
8,130
113
For me, I've never had a huge problem with the rate itself. It's the front loading of interest payments that should be criminal
What do you mean? Like pay the principal and accumulate interest on that but the interest itself isn’t subject to more interest?
 

johnson86-1

All-Conference
Aug 22, 2012
14,324
4,824
113
Sure, I see why you are saying it isnt excessive.
Mortgages arent just interest paid over 30 years though- there are initial fees that generate a ton of money for lenders, and money paid back early can go to lending and collecting more initial fees or can go to investing in other ways. If the bank loaned $300k and just sat on the money it was paid over 30 years, yeah that would be a bad investment because it could have likely earned more using the money differently. But lenders dont just sit on the money as it is slowly paid back over 30 years. It takes the money paid back and loans it out again, over and over and over.

It seems like your example suggests the loan exists in a vacuum where nothing changes as it is paid off and the money is not touched.

Adding those fees in over a thirty year mortgage isn't going to change the math unless you are just getting raped by not shopping around or maybe by being a subprime borrower. And yes, the bank gets to reloan money after it's paid off just like the borrower doesn't pay interest on money it has paid back. Again, doesn't really change teh analysis. If you changed it to a 30 year interest only loan with a balloon payment, the math wouldn't really change. You'd pay more interest but get more return, and the variance in potential returns would be bigger.

I was editing the prior response as you were responding, but I'll drop it here again:

I am not a good investor, so this may make your point, but I would not sign up for owning a mortgage lending bank. I purposefully don't invest in any banks outside of being invested in them through S&P 500 funds. Just doesn't seem like a great business. Seems like the banks that grow fast usually do so by taking on extra risk or overpaying for acquisitions and I just don't like them in general as an investment class. That said, over the past 10 years, the S&P has outperformed the Dow Jones US Bank index by more than 3.5% on an annualized basis, which is obviously huge. But over the past 5 years, it's almost exactly the opposite, with the Bank index outperforming by a little more than 3% annually. https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/indices/equity/dow-jones-us-banks-index/#overview

But I don't think it's the type of business if you told people that they had to pick something other than an index fund, it's a compelling investment that a lot of people are going to jump to. I'm sure plenty would just because banking is so visible to them, but I think they'd lag significantly behind people investing in tech stocks and probably oil and gas although I'm much less confident about that one.
 

Perd Hapley

All-American
Sep 30, 2022
5,816
6,869
113
I'm not making the argument that they should increase rates, just that they don't seem absurdly high to me. If you let me pay for a $300,000 asset over thirty years, and the rate is low enough that the vast majority of the time, just putting the amount loaned into a simple index fund would perform well enough that it would make sense to take out the mortgage even if you could pay cash, it doesn't seem like the interest rate is excessive.

Its not that the rates themselves are excessive, it’s the wild swing in the rates from 2021 until now that has still not even come close to unwinding that is creating all sorts of problems. The COVID rate golden handcuffs are still solidly shackled to 60-70% of homeowners (myself included), and aren’t coming off anytime soon. That’s keeping housing turnover from happening, which keeps pumping in more into the values to the houses in spite of interest rates staying elevated.

It’s suffocating most realtors, locking new members of the workforce into rentals, and stripping potential equity growth away from millions of Americans and just funneling that money to already wealthy property investors, private holdings companies, and banks / corporations. That is a bubble that’s going to become a massive problem soon.

Last time I did the math on it, it would cost me something along the lines of $10,000~$12,000 more per year than I am currently paying, just to buy the current house I already have from myself. Totally non-starter to think about trading up. It’s madness.
 
Last edited:

Seinfeld

All-American
Nov 30, 2006
11,148
6,968
113
What do you mean? Like pay the principal and accumulate interest on that but the interest itself isn’t subject to more interest?
I'm talking about this...

1751563936149.png

On a fixed rate mortgage, you may be making the same monthly payment amount for the life of the loan, but it takes nearly 20 years for that payment to even reach a 50/50 split in terms of principal being paid down versus interest. The absolute ideal thing for a bank to do is to lock you into one of these bad boys and then convince you to re-finance a new 30-yr mortgage in about 10 years because the interest rate is 1% lower.
 

615dawg

All-Conference
Jun 4, 2007
6,634
3,594
113
QQQ + QQQM + QLD + TQQQ strategy for me the rest of the year. Load up!
 

ZombieKissinger

All-American
May 29, 2013
4,901
8,130
113
I'm talking about this...

View attachment 833010

On a fixed rate mortgage, you may be making the same monthly payment amount for the life of the loan, but it takes nearly 20 years for that payment to even reach a 50/50 split in terms of principal being paid down versus interest. The absolute ideal thing for a bank to do is to lock you into one of these bad boys and then convince you to re-finance a new 30-yr mortgage in about 10 years because the interest rate is 1% lower.
Yeah, I know how that part works… just wasn’t sure of the proposed solution
 

Perd Hapley

All-American
Sep 30, 2022
5,816
6,869
113
I'm talking about this...

View attachment 833010

On a fixed rate mortgage, you may be making the same monthly payment amount for the life of the loan, but it takes nearly 20 years for that payment to even reach a 50/50 split in terms of principal being paid down versus interest. The absolute ideal thing for a bank to do is to lock you into one of these bad boys and then convince you to re-finance a new 30-yr mortgage in about 10 years because the interest rate is 1% lower.
Well, the only other option for the banks for that to work would be to completely eliminate or heavily penalize the option to pay down the loan early, and lock you into the payments over the long haul. And say your home value increases a lot and you sell for a windfall, you’d have to pay the entire remaining scheduled principal + interest, not just the principal.

Otherwise, rates would be even higher than they are now. All other scenarios would result in the banks going underwater on the loans.
 

johnson86-1

All-Conference
Aug 22, 2012
14,324
4,824
113
Its not that the rates themselves are excessive, it’s the wild swing in the rates from 2021 until now that has still not even come close to unwinding that is creating all sorts of problems. The COVID rate golden handcuffs are still solidly shackled to 60-70% of homeowners (myself included), and aren’t coming off anytime soon. That’s keeping housing turnover from happening, which keeps pumping in more into the values to the houses in spite of interest rates staying elevated.

It’s suffocating most realtors, locking new members of the workforce into rentals, and stripping potential equity growth away from millions of Americans and just funneling that money to already wealthy property investors, private holdings companies, and banks / corporations. That is a bubble that’s going to become a massive problem soon.

Last time I did the math on it, it would cost me something along the lines of $10,000~$12,000 more per year than I am currently paying, just to buy the current house I already have from myself. Totally non-starter to think about trading up. It’s madness.
I don’t disagree with any of that, but in places that allow building it’s better. The artificially low interest rates have created a problem, but it’s going to be temporary one way or the other, even if it’s pretty ****** for people not in a house before the post Covid spike. But the chokehold we have on supply and extra costs we impose have created a long term problem that we still aren’t addressing and don’t appear to have a path to address.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Perd Hapley
Jul 5, 2020
487
406
63
As for NVDA... One day I will have to balls to follow my own strategy.

Posted this on March 6th and predicted the exact 17ing spot where Nvidia would bottom off a falling wedge and breakout... But I chickened out and looked for an even lower bottom in all the tariff noise..

View attachment 832595


Here's the chart today... Only up 80% in 3 freaking months.

View attachment 832597

This is why subs make bad traders. We are weak and enjoy the punishment.
If it makes you feel any better, most of the broader indices are up; nothing like NVDA, but any buy in late March/April looks brilliant.
Sure, I see why you are saying it isnt excessive.
Mortgages arent just interest paid over 30 years though- there are initial fees that generate a ton of money for lenders, and money paid back early can go to lending and collecting more initial fees or can go to investing in other ways. If the bank loaned $300k and just sat on the money it was paid over 30 years, yeah that would be a bad investment because it could have likely earned more using the money differently. But lenders dont just sit on the money as it is slowly paid back over 30 years. It takes the money paid back and loans it out again, over and over and over.

It seems like your example suggests the loan exists in a vacuum where nothing changes as it is paid off and the money is not touched.
They make most of their money by packaging and selling the loans, which is extremely lucrative, limits risk, and frees up their capital for reinvestment.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3dawgnight
Jul 5, 2020
487
406
63
Its not that the rates themselves are excessive, it’s the wild swing in the rates from 2021 until now that has still not even come close to unwinding that is creating all sorts of problems. The COVID rate golden handcuffs are still solidly shackled to 60-70% of homeowners (myself included), and aren’t coming off anytime soon. That’s keeping housing turnover from happening, which keeps pumping in more into the values to the houses in spite of interest rates staying elevated.

It’s suffocating most realtors, locking new members of the workforce into rentals, and stripping potential equity growth away from millions of Americans and just funneling that money to already wealthy property investors, private holdings companies, and banks / corporations. That is a bubble that’s going to become a massive problem soon.

Last time I did the math on it, it would cost me something along the lines of $10,000~$12,000 more per year than I am currently paying, just to buy the current house I already have from myself. Totally non-starter to think about trading up. It’s madness.
I feel you here. I own a rental property that appreciated dramatically in 2021-2022 and I wasn't in a position to sell. By the time I was, rates had gone crazy. I've been wanting to offload it since then, but now will get hammered by capital gains. And yes, I've been depreciating it out. Still frustrating that I could've sold it in 2023 if rates had just increased moderately; now I'm looking at a 1031 but my rate on that property is 3%. Golden handcuffs indeed.
 

paindonthurt

All-Conference
Apr 7, 2025
3,807
2,754
113
I am confident that almost everyone who was given the chance to reap all the financial benefits from owning a mortgage lending bank, would sign up on the spot.
Lenders make more than just interest off of mortgages...a lot more. It is continued annual revenue since current houses are being bought over and over year after year and new houses are being built year after year.


You are seriously trying to make the case for mortgage lenders not being on the smart side of financial investment and growth, and should perhaps increase interest rates.
I think he’s trying to make the case that it’s a fair deal.
 

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
15,981
5,825
113
They make most of their money by packaging and selling the loans, which is extremely lucrative, limits risk, and frees up their capital for reinvestment.
Yep, getting money back to then use for further investment is key to the process.
 

paindonthurt

All-Conference
Apr 7, 2025
3,807
2,754
113
The funny thing is that nearly everyone took these positions: 1) this sucks and I hate it or 2) this sucks but we deserve to take our medicine and bust the bubble. A reset will be good for us.

Fast forward 2 months and trillions more debt on the table, trade deficit increasing, and bubble getting bigger. Status quo with some some tough guy rhetoric to troll the folks that hate him and give boners to those that worship.
I mean one side would love to cut a ton of debt. Just give us the word!!

Or call your democratic representatives and tell them to cut cut cut cut!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: MSUDAWGFAN

ckDOG

All-American
Dec 11, 2007
10,006
5,828
113
I mean one side would love to cut a ton of debt. Just give us the word!!

Or call your democratic representatives and tell them to cut cut cut cut!!
I don't have any democrats representing me. Besides, Republicans are just as bad with money than Democrats. While I'm not sure Democrats actually understand economic principles which is bad itself, the GOP may deserve more criticism bc they allegedly know better. Their existence is to ***** about debt when they can't do anything about it. When they are given the reigns after the *****-fest works, they just add to it - as we've learned this very day.

We have one party committed to the welfare state and the other printing money to subsidize the uber wealthy. Maybe one day the masses will stop falling for the trick where the 2 ruling parties convince us to hate each other and we finally start electing people that represent the masses rather than catering to the margins.
 

anon1758050382

All-American
Oct 6, 2022
4,548
6,807
113
ETA: I am not a good investor, so this may make your point, but I would not sign up for owning a mortgage lending bank. I purposefully don't invest in any banks outside of being invested in them through S&P 500 funds. Just doesn't seem like a great business. Seems like the banks that grow fast usually do so by taking on extra risk or overpaying for acquisitions and I just don't like them in general as an investment class. That said, over the past 10 years, the S&P has outperformed the Dow Jones US Bank index by more than 3.5% on an annualized basis, which is obviously huge. But over the past 5 years, it's almost exactly the opposite, with the Bank index outperforming by a little more than 3% annually. https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/indices/equity/dow-jones-us-banks-index/#overview

But I don't think it's the type of business if you told people that they had to pick something other than an index fund, it's a compelling investment that a lot of people are going to jump to. I'm sure plenty would just because banking is so visible to them, but I think they'd lag significantly behind people investing in tech stocks and probably oil and gas although I'm much less confident about that one.
As a lender, I would prefer better collateral than real estate. I want liquidity, fungibility, faster recovery time, lower LTV, and less risk.

Screenshot 2025-07-03 at 1.52.40 PM.png

 
  • Haha
Reactions: jethreauxdawg

paindonthurt

All-Conference
Apr 7, 2025
3,807
2,754
113
We have one party committed to the welfare state and the other printing money to subsidize the uber wealthy. Maybe one day the masses will stop falling for the trick where the 2 ruling parties convince us to hate each other and we finally start electing people that represent the masses rather than catering to the margins.
I don’t hate you.

But I’m all in for term limits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: horshack.sixpack

paindonthurt

All-Conference
Apr 7, 2025
3,807
2,754
113
a rare mistake from the Founding Fathers, imo

From Day One, it should have been:
  • House - two full terms, five years max
  • Senate - two full terms, fifteen years max
  • President - two full terms, ten years max (as amended in 1951)
I’d settle with 20 years total between house and senate. 16 years max in one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pseudonym

ckDOG

All-American
Dec 11, 2007
10,006
5,828
113
a rare mistake from the Founding Fathers, imo

From Day One, it should have been:
  • House - two full terms, five years max
  • Senate - two full terms, fifteen years max
  • President - two full terms, ten years max (as amended in 1951)
They would help. I also think we are far overdue for adding more representatives. They represent far far more people than the founding fathers ever intended. Too many people + short unlimited terms means they just spend all their time fundraising and not what they are supposed to do - listen to their constituents and legislate.

Good example: Steve Cohen in my neck of the woods reps city of Memphis and a nice chunk of rural north Shelby county. It's insane that 1 rep speaks for those two very very different populations - it's not fair to either of them.
 
Nov 16, 2005
27,541
20,516
113
They would help. I also think we are far overdue for adding more representatives. They represent far far more people than the founding fathers ever intended. Too many people + short unlimited terms means they just spend all their time fundraising and not what they are supposed to do - listen to their constituents and legislate.

Good example: Steve Cohen in my neck of the woods reps city of Memphis and a nice chunk of rural north Shelby county. It's insane that 1 rep speaks for those two very very different populations - it's not fair to either of them.
Bless you. That guy is a fruit.
 

ckDOG

All-American
Dec 11, 2007
10,006
5,828
113
Bless you. That guy is a fruit.
It's past time for him to hang it up. I have Kustoff now. He's inaccessible and is a rubber stamp. I'm not sure why offices like his even exist with the budget he has. It's not to listen to constituents that's for sure. Although it was pretty easy to get Capitol and White House tour tickets the one time I tried so that's cool...