You can be logical and faithful.
my logic helps my faith but I definitely struggle with my faith and I fall short daily.
read a case for Christ. Not saying it’s the answer but that’s a similar approach I take to believing.
Playing off Lent thread, what religion are you?
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my logic helps my faith but I definitely struggle with my faith and I fall short daily.
read a case for Christ. Not saying it’s the answer but that’s a similar approach I take to believing.
My current viewpoint is that I don’t possess the needed faith largely because I don’t comprehend it…
Churches market themselves of communities of faith, but if I don’t have an understanding of it enough that satisfies me, then I’m not part of the community
Is Confession in Scripture?
Can the Catholic practice of confessing sins to a priest be found anywhere in the Bible? Tim Staples lays out all the evidence.
There are a ton of verses that back it up as a belief. It’s explicitly stated in the Old Testament and then several verses in the New Testament lend it credence at absolute minimum.
In the same vein you’re asking for explicit confirmation, you cannot provide explicit confirmation for sola scriptura which just leads to circular arguments.
And I’m not saying you have to agree or participate in confession. But what I will tell you is when you walk out you feel like a weight has been lifted. Confessing to a clergy your sins, having him tell you feedback, & being given forgiveness from Jesus can’t be a bad thing.
Are you familiar with the “pistis Christou” debate? Basically the Greek phrase “pistils Christou” can be translated either as:
Objective genitive: “faith in Christ”
Or
Subjective genitive: “faithfulness of Christ”
An example would be Galatians 2:16:
Objective genitive reads- “a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ”
Subjective genitive reads- “a person is not justified by works of the law but through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”
I personally most definitely lean toward the subjective genitive reading- because it fits the bigger picture- Christ’s faithfulness is what saves and restores everyone. (Romans 5:18–19, 1 Cor 15:22, etc.).
A little
I consider the argument to be a matter of semantics
In either case, a believer would have to possess faith…
Through this thread I think we see why there are so many denominations. Most have the same core beliefs but there are some pretty differences that people become fixated.
I attend a Baptist church, but also recognize there isn’t one perfect denomination. Unfortunately our imperfect human influence has helped create imperfect institutions.
To the one comment on politics turning you away, I get it. If our church started preaching politics, not core beliefs, but vote this party or that, we would have serious conversations and leave if it continued. We come to church to worship God, learn about him and serve his will.
I attend a Baptist church, but also recognize there isn’t one perfect denomination. Unfortunately our imperfect human influence has helped create imperfect institutions.
To the one comment on politics turning you away, I get it. If our church started preaching politics, not core beliefs, but vote this party or that, we would have serious conversations and leave if it continued. We come to church to worship God, learn about him and serve his will.
1. Love your family
2. Love others
3. Don’t be a dick
Who gives a **** about the rest???
2. Love others
3. Don’t be a dick
Who gives a **** about the rest???
Not really.
The objective reading (“faith in Christ”) puts the weight on YOUR faith. This is probably the one you grew up with or around anyway. Do I posses the needed faith? How much faith do I have? Do I have any faith? Ect
The subjective reading (“faithfulness of Christ”) flips the weight entirely onto Jesus, and HIS faith and faithfulness. His perfect obedience. His unwavering trust in the Father. His faithful death and resurrection Ect- That faithfulness- HIS faithfulness- is what justifies us (Gal 2:16, Rom 3:22, Phil 3:9, etc.).
Think about the disciples in Matthew 17:20 when they failed to do something. Jesus didn’t say “you need more faith.”
He said “if you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move mountains.”
Translation- He saying them their faith is smaller than a mustard seed. He saying it so small quit worrying about it because their faith is not the point. He didn’t reject them- He didn’t say “come back when you posses the needed faith”. Jesus’s faith was enough for them- it’s enough for the whole world- and its enough for YOU- even if you don’t comprehend.
Sigh. It’s semantics because interpretations depends upon individuals
Someone has to have the faith to believe or the faith to accept the veracity of the documentation as-is
It’s like I said earlier. Everyone here is used to everyone around them being all in on Jesus. Not having faith is truly hard for them to understand. Me? I’m with you. When you truly step back and look at it logically it all falls apart. Every religion does. That’s where the faith comes in. But my brain won’t let me get there either.
No, it’s not truly “just semantics” in any meaningful way. The two different readings of “pistis Christou” are dramatically different and lead to fundamentally different gospels. It’s not semantics like choosing between synonyms- It’s a foundational fork in how we understand what actually saves:
our believing, or His faithfulness.
One makes salvation cooperative (God + your faith). The other makes salvation unilateral (God’s faithfulness in Christ, period).
What about a person with severe intellectual disability? Like someone with profound mental retardation who can’t form sentences, can’t understand concepts like “sin” or “justification,” cant “accept the veracity of the documentation,” can’t even comprehend the gospel ect?
Does God require their faith to be strong enough, clear enough, or even present at all?
Or does God say “nah, I’ve got this one covered because My faithfulness already included them”?
I do. I want to know what we’re doing here and where we’re going. If it’s just life and death, that’s pretty crappy, as people die every day in bad ways and at bad times.
So you can’t provide scripture? Got it.
You can literally go talk to a therapist, a preacher, a friend in Christ, look in the mirror and say the things out loud and get this.
yes talking to a priest is good but it is in no way required by the Bible. None. Zero.
There are some things in the Bible that require interpretation. There are lots that don’t. To get to heaven it’s really clear what is required. Believe in God. Believe Jesus was his son and died and rose from the grave and follow him.
Believing requires faith. Obviously following him requires believing and therefore faith. But part of what gives me faith is most scholars agree the bibles historical accuracy. Like the overwhelming majority. For instance, Matthew mark Luke and John were all written at different times and they were based on stories passed down through generations when it wasn’t easy to document things. They are basically spot on.
even in a modern society with writing, typing, recoding, etc it’s hard to get a group of people to tell the same story so closely.
Just read the Bible! Find people who are faithful who talk to you about the Bible and not their church!
I would argue that the Bible says those three things are ultimately why we are here.
I provided a link full scripture you chose not to read.
It's crazy to me what small things have caused all this division. Considering that, since Catholicism was the first Christian church, I tend to lean that direction, on a scale of Catholicism all the way to non-denominational rock shows.
You are wasting your time.
But - I am enjoying your information, so I guess not a complete waste.
Forest and trees, man…
Forest and trees…
From an inside context perspective, you might have something, but when to communicating with someone who’s logical, approaches from the outside, and struggles with faith because people don’t address logic, guess what?
You also don’t address the outside logic perspective, immediately discount it much like other people have, and are simply talking to yourself…
You have what I consider to be a better foundational approach than bulldoghair because the process you've mentioned here is one I also examine on occasion… the historical context of and how the Gospels developed over the course of time.
But does understanding its history equal having faith?
Currently, I don’t think it does…
I know…
It’d be easier to just get along and belong, but like you, my brain won’t allow it…
I’d rather be true to myself than be a false churchgoer… dambed ethics get in the way… lol
understanding that the historical accuracy tells me they weren’t just lying. If they were; they all came up with the same lies!
so if they weren’t lying, then we can agree they witnessed some amazing things. They also all confirm the death and resurrection.
tie that into how well the old testament matches up with the new
God bless you.
The main scripture has been alluded to numerous times and shared in a link in this thread. You choose to ignore- that’s on you at this point.
It’s pretty clear what it says— if you have a different interpretation, whatever, but I’m always amused when someone tells Catholics the things that have been believed since Jesus walked the Earth are wrong because we have misinterpreted. And the people that have these alternate interpretations came up with these 1500+ years later. Some of your founders didn’t even believe some of the things believed today.
Just post the scripture? Why is that so hard?
id rather read the bible than someone’s else’s interpretation of it.
JUST POST THE SCRIPTURE!! The actual word of God.
Yet again, why are you demanding a scriptural reference from a religious group who explicitly disagrees with the idea that every belief must be justified by scripture? You're never going to get what you want...
Catholics believe all kinds of things that aren't in the Bible, stuff that was decided by councils over the centuries.
You saying I’m not addressing the “outside logic perspective” while you ignored or refused to engage the most straightforward, logical edge case I gave you lol.
Since you keep talking about “faith” and that you say you “don’t posses the needed faith” and that “someone has to have the faith to believe,” ec- And since I too care about logic…
I asked you about a person with profound intellectual disability- can’t speak, can’t understand “sin,” “justification,” “gospel,” “faith,” or any “documentation as is” ect…
Does God require their faith to be strong enough, clear enough, or even present?
I also wouldn’t mind hearing paindonthurt’s response and/or anyone else’s to this “logical” question.
I am a little shocked this thread is still going, but I had a random thought this morning and decided to post it here.
To me, the strongest case for reformed theology, i.e., calvinism, solas, etc. is that most of those folks I know take the bible very seriously. Just an observation from an outsider.
To me, the strongest case for reformed theology, i.e., calvinism, solas, etc. is that most of those folks I know take the bible very seriously. Just an observation from an outsider.
Navigating life in the Bible Belt as a non-believer is pretty much the same as being a progressive liberal. It's always fun when people find out and are shocked I'm not trying to destroy America, turn my kids trans, and start a war on Christmas. Bit of hyperbole, but no one ever treats me the same or acts the same around me when they find out.
After being immersed in it growing up and through early adulthood, it all just seemed liked people trying to attach a meaning to life and death that didn't exist and didn't need to. We are just another species living out their blip in time. We crawled out of the water, decided to go to the trees instead of back into it with some other mammals, then came down from the trees when we got smart. We are the lucky species with the most developed brains which has allowed us to think and build amazing things as well as develop complex emotions. The gift the universe gives us is that time is running out on your clock from day one, and we have developed the brain power to give that brief moment meaning. We don't need to invent a higher power to do it for us. But yeah, we live we die. Bad stuff and good stuff happens. Moving on.
Outside looking in, the one great irony I see right now is that we are the only species that has ever lived that can actually do the first thing we are told to do in the Bible, which is take care of the garden, and we are doing a pretty miserable job of it.
After being immersed in it growing up and through early adulthood, it all just seemed liked people trying to attach a meaning to life and death that didn't exist and didn't need to. We are just another species living out their blip in time. We crawled out of the water, decided to go to the trees instead of back into it with some other mammals, then came down from the trees when we got smart. We are the lucky species with the most developed brains which has allowed us to think and build amazing things as well as develop complex emotions. The gift the universe gives us is that time is running out on your clock from day one, and we have developed the brain power to give that brief moment meaning. We don't need to invent a higher power to do it for us. But yeah, we live we die. Bad stuff and good stuff happens. Moving on.
Outside looking in, the one great irony I see right now is that we are the only species that has ever lived that can actually do the first thing we are told to do in the Bible, which is take care of the garden, and we are doing a pretty miserable job of it.
It ain’t straightforward because it ain’t outside
And you still haven’t addressed it.
I don’t expect you to address it because many churchgoers only care about what’s inside and refuse to go outside their comfort zones
This is absolutely false. Catholics believe the bible is the infallible word of god and everything in it is true. You can’t show me a Catholic belief that’s not rooted in scripture unless you remove the Septuagint which was done 1500 years in to Christianity by reformers who would contradict their beliefs if it was still there. I’ve studied that debate in depth & had it with my mother who knows Hebrew, Aramaic, etc… so I’m not saying you can’t argue against it in good faith but to me it’s simple…. That’s what the vast majority of Jews followed at the time Jesus was on Earth founding his church so it makes too much logical sense to include it. Even Luther wasn’t for removing it, just segregating it as “minor” scriptures. To me it’s a bad faith argument to exclude it, act like it doesn’t exist, & demand proof from a reformed document. But then again, I believe many who make that argument don’t know that and don’t realize the nuance & depth a real debate on the subject requires.
I’m not really demanding it. But I am strongly requesting it id they want me to believe what they believe. I don’t and won’t bc it’s not scripture based.
The link I attached has 22 verses with explanation, context, & even translation info to help.
And let’s not pretend like some denominations who hold this same view of certain Catholic beliefs being unbiblical (which I can argue in good faith they aren’t) don’t flat out ignore things explicitly stated in the bible, like divorce for example. The problem when we, and by we I mean the church ie all believers, start doing the splintering and then more splintering, and then offshoots of the splintering is we start picking & choosing in a way on what’s convenient for us.
All the Christian’s arguing about nitpicking details of religion instead of just shrugging their shoulders and realizing they should all just focus on being kind and making the world a better place is the problem. People care more about the religion part than what is at the core of it.
I’m assuming it’s the same in other religions
Christianity and all other faiths are great at their core. It’s when religion comes along that they become monsters
Aa
I’m assuming it’s the same in other religions
Christianity and all other faiths are great at their core. It’s when religion comes along that they become monsters
Aa
Actually you’re the one hiding in your comfort zone and refusing to go “outside.” I simply asked a clear, logical, real world edge case that has zero to do with “inside church comfort zones”. It is actually the most outside question possible- it strips away every cultural, emotional, intellectual, and denominational layer and forces the core issue. But if you don’t want to engage it, that’s perfectly fine.
I'll wait for you to list your top 2 or 3 or i'll just assume you don't have any good reference points.
I don't care more about the religion part. I care more abou the bible part.
As i've stated, i've gone to catholic church services and liked it. I'm just pointing out things i think are wrong with the Catechism.
I have also stated things i think are wrong with southern baptist which is where i attended as a child and youth. The drinking thing is probably the first one to come to mind.
To be clear and transparent, I’m not trying to make you believe what I believe. If you are comfortable & involved in your church fam, that’s great. That said, I’m comfortable defending many of these positions.
Growing up I went to a few churches, one baptist church on the coast in particular, who hated Catholics and made every possible generalized attack you can make. I was brought up hearing all this. My studying & researching has brought me to a different place.
It’s actually a huge stark difference that speaks volumes to me having been on both sides. I’ve been to numerous Protestant churches where many say Catholics aren’t Christians and talk horribly about them. As a Catholic, I’ve never heard that the other way in church. It’s always our brothers and sisters in Christ. I even heard that type of disrespectful talk between Baptist & Methodist denominations about each other.
Man do you realize you are why many christians get a bad rap? The guy is saying he has tried and willing to try and you are just being a judgemental prick.
I remember something about a plank in your own eye.
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