however, recruiting makes or breaks basketball. Look at Mark Fox at Georgia. He is a very good coach and he hasn't been able to win. Ultimately it takes players and sometimes it is harder to coach talent than a team full of overachievers as we witnessed last year. Remember this, Stansbury had some great blue collar teams before he got truly elite talent. Stansbury couldn't handle the prima donnas, but he was pretty good himself with the mid to upper tier talent. The real test for Ray is can he recruit some elite players and then can he get those types of players to buy in to the effort and hustle. I do like what I am seeing though.
Rick Ray is looking good as a coach...
- Thread starter squirldawg
- Start date
Just no. What "blue collar" non-elite players are you talking about? Stans ALWAYS had players to bail him out, and the talent level at MSU started out high and got worse the longer he stayed here.
Fox is a mediocre coach, and Coach K couldn't convince good talent to come to UGA and play in those middle school facilities.
/end thread
Fox is a mediocre coach, and Coach K couldn't convince good talent to come to UGA and play in those middle school facilities.
/end thread
The team with Timmy Bowers, Shane Power and Lawrence Roberts. That was a talented team, but not elite talent. Had good role players and the superstar (Roberts) was a tweener. No elite, NBA type of talent on that team and it went undefeated on the road in the SEC which is a great achievement.
Good Post....
I feel the same way, I think once Ray finds talent we will be a very good team. We are in desperate need of a big man, Lewis returning will help and we may even surprise some people come mid February This team has improved tremendously since the Hawaii trip even with all of the injuries. I'm liking this hire more and more each day.
I feel the same way, I think once Ray finds talent we will be a very good team. We are in desperate need of a big man, Lewis returning will help and we may even surprise some people come mid February This team has improved tremendously since the Hawaii trip even with all of the injuries. I'm liking this hire more and more each day.
I've liked this guy since the beginning. We knew he had brains, now it seems he has the "it" factor that makes players want to give him 110%. We don't even have enough players to play an intra-squad game, and this guy has us 2-0 in the SEC. Crazy! It's like he's...Superman---no, wait! Chuck Norris! I hear ghosts sit around the campfire and tell Rick Ray stories...
I agree, but advancing in the tournament is usually strongly correlated with...
at least having a couple of elite level (NBA) talents on the roster. We haven't had that at MSU over the years.
at least having a couple of elite level (NBA) talents on the roster. We haven't had that at MSU over the years.
Do you mean advancing is correlated to having guys who are/were elite in the NBA, or guys who were highly regarded in college and therefore drafted high?
Stans never got "truly elite" talent. Come on now.....
He got one or two every couple of years but he didn't have the talent to win the whole thing except for 2004. Bottom line is, if he hadn't signed the problem child he would still be there. He lived and died with him. But whatever, Stans made his bed and laid in it.
Back to Ray, I agree, if he can recruit, he'll be great. But recruiting doesn't make or break you....if you can't coach, all you'll get is the baggage type guys by playing the game. I think Ray is going to attract that right type folks.
He got one or two every couple of years but he didn't have the talent to win the whole thing except for 2004. Bottom line is, if he hadn't signed the problem child he would still be there. He lived and died with him. But whatever, Stans made his bed and laid in it.
Back to Ray, I agree, if he can recruit, he'll be great. But recruiting doesn't make or break you....if you can't coach, all you'll get is the baggage type guys by playing the game. I think Ray is going to attract that right type folks.
Last edited:
Squirrel, I think you're correct to a point about Stans, but I don't think he ever got truly elite talent as a head coach. The closest ones would be the gift of Laurence Roberts landing in his lap, Arnett Moultrie (another transfer), Derrick Zimmerman and perhaps Mario Austin. Those are the only ones who even sniffed the NBA. Rodney Hood is probably in that list, but I want to see what he does at Duke before adding him in the group. When you mention blue-collar players, I think you're thinking of Branden Vincent. Vincent helped us win so many games through his effort and determination.
I think Stans typically got better than average talent. At first, he was able to get rid of the random bad apples and built his teams around excellent defense and rebounding. I think over time, Stans started taking on too many players with "issues", eroding the team chemistry. Also, having Jarvis Varnado (another quality player and teammate) allowed the others on the team to slack on defense, because they knew that Jarvis would take care of anyone who slipped past them. Once Jarvis was gone, no one could play defense, and the inmates took over.
I hope Ray can recruit. I think we agree that he will be successful if he can get quality guys here who buy into the program and give the effort that we've seen in the last two games. But beating SC at home and UGA on the road, while nice, is nothing to really brag about. Perhaps those two losses make up for that embarrassing defeat to Alabama A&M, and we can hope that the team will continue to improve during conference season and steal away a few more victories. Regardless, Ray's got my support, and I'd be in the stands for the home game against Alabama if I lived in Mississippi.
agree 100% with this.
stans had some teams early on that played damn hard all the time. heck, we were known in the league for years for playin tough D and rebounding. his problem was he couldnt motivate the type of player he began recruiting. the question is when/if ray gets top notch talent can he get them to play as hard as this team? if so he will be a good coach. right now he has my full support.
Not to be harsh ...
Can you explain that comment. I'm going to need some kind of list of those "players that bailed him out" HIGH talent that MSU started out with. Stans became the 'head recruiter' in the mid-90's; recruited Dampier and Jones. In his 22 years at State, he had ONE McDonald's AA suit up for him and that was Renardo Sidney. (Compare that to Caliparri that has had 10 McD AA's suit up in the last FOUR years). Stans had others that made it to the NBA ... 1999 Tyrone Washington, 2003 Mario Austin, 2003 Derrick Zimmerman, 2005 Lawrence Roberts, 2010 Jarvis Varnado, 2012 Arnett Moultrie. NONE were considered ELITE talents and got to the NBA by working hard.
If Jeff Malone hadn't come around, the entire ~36 years between Bailey Howell and Eric Dampier was one diaster after another. I'm just trying to figure out your point. Did Stans just rely on that incredible talent to screw things up or the talent later in his time at State was 'sub-par?'
Stans never was able to get 'elite' talent to play at State (some 'signed' but never played) but he did well (until Sids arrival) with what he had.
Can you explain that comment. I'm going to need some kind of list of those "players that bailed him out" HIGH talent that MSU started out with. Stans became the 'head recruiter' in the mid-90's; recruited Dampier and Jones. In his 22 years at State, he had ONE McDonald's AA suit up for him and that was Renardo Sidney. (Compare that to Caliparri that has had 10 McD AA's suit up in the last FOUR years). Stans had others that made it to the NBA ... 1999 Tyrone Washington, 2003 Mario Austin, 2003 Derrick Zimmerman, 2005 Lawrence Roberts, 2010 Jarvis Varnado, 2012 Arnett Moultrie. NONE were considered ELITE talents and got to the NBA by working hard.
If Jeff Malone hadn't come around, the entire ~36 years between Bailey Howell and Eric Dampier was one diaster after another. I'm just trying to figure out your point. Did Stans just rely on that incredible talent to screw things up or the talent later in his time at State was 'sub-par?'
Stans never was able to get 'elite' talent to play at State (some 'signed' but never played) but he did well (until Sids arrival) with what he had.
Dont forget Ty Washington and Tang Hamilton (Washington was drafted and Tang signed a 10 day contract or two)
********** never got "elite" talent but he did sign some very good college basketball players. He made his name off of a really good 4 years run from 2001-2005- other than that, his tenure was very mediocre
********** never got "elite" talent but he did sign some very good college basketball players. He made his name off of a really good 4 years run from 2001-2005- other than that, his tenure was very mediocre
REALLY ???????
You mean the team with the All-American Roberts, Fist team SEC Bowers, and 2nd team SEC Powers...
Really, that's not Elite college talent???
your and idiot..
You mean the team with the All-American Roberts, Fist team SEC Bowers, and 2nd team SEC Powers...
Really, that's not Elite college talent???
your and idiot..
Stans recruiting hype was helped tremendously by those that signed but went pro instead. Jonathan Bender, Travis Outlaw and Monta Ellis all signed but went straight to the NBA instead. I wanna say a 4th Quintel Woods from EMCC? Also signed but went pro too. With all the transfers and head cases Stansbury brought in I would actually say Stansbury was a terrible evaluator of character which means he was a way over-hyped recruiter. He kinda sucked actually. Ervin, Sidney, Bailey, Rhodes, Sharpe, Bost, all had horrible attitudes and there's many more to name.
While those were very good college players in the SEC (one of the worst college basketball conferences according to many), those players were not elite talent. As in none of those players could make it in the NBA. I think coaching made those players appear better than they were if anything. You are a dumbass and fail reading comprehension as I obviously said, no elite, NBA type of talent.
Stansbury rolled the dice and tried to balance character with talent. It is simply hard to recruit elite talent to MSU, no matter what some think. He took chances to up the talent level and it bit him in the ***.
That was my point as well, that Stans never got truly elite talent until his final team. Renardo Sidney, Arnett Moultrie and Rodney Hood were elite talent in my opinion, but the character was so bad with several players on that team that he couldn't overcome it.
My point is that you don't need NBA Elite talent to have a successful CBB program.
An Elite college player doesn't always translate into an Elite NBA player..
Stans had Elite college talent while he was our coach, I hope Coach Ray can find similar talent in the near future..
An Elite college player doesn't always translate into an Elite NBA player..
Stans had Elite college talent while he was our coach, I hope Coach Ray can find similar talent in the near future..
To win a championship you need elite talent. To make the tourney 40-50% of the time; no. You can make tourneys and bow out early with good-great talent and below average coaching like Stans. Or you can build a solid core and make tourneys with average-good talent and good coaching with a chance to make a run like George Mason, Davidson and VCU along with countless mid-majors that make runs into the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 each year.
I'll take the Ray approach, albiet we'll probably have to upgrade the talent through development rather than landing a Lawrence Roberts. If we get a break with a couple big recruits, watch out
Texas had TJ Ford who had a decent career when he was healthy, James Thomas who had a brief career and Royal Ivey who has managed to hang on in the league for a decade playing 8-10 minutes a night. None of the Butler guys played in the NBA. Xavier had one guy who got a brief cup of coffee in the NBA but that was it.
After that, Stans lost too many regular season games to ever have a decent enough seed for us to compare talent levels. When you are in the 8/9 game playing Duke or Memphis in the second round, you are going to come up on the short end of that one most of time.
After that, Stans lost too many regular season games to ever have a decent enough seed for us to compare talent levels. When you are in the 8/9 game playing Duke or Memphis in the second round, you are going to come up on the short end of that one most of time.
Yet ...
He was still able to have a winning record over 8 of 11 SEC teams including every west team. He managed to beat Vandy 9 of 14 times and 'owned' Ole Miss winning 21 of 29. And, he won ~60% of his SECT games.
He always reminded me of Bianco; good league teams but just couldn't get past that first hurdle.
Based on our #12 of 14 SEC BB budget, lack of high level HS players, and competition for players ... Ray has an up-hill climb. He has done an outstanding job with what he was dealt and it will be interesting to watch his recruiting. Because while 50% is coaching, the other 50% is recruiting.
He was still able to have a winning record over 8 of 11 SEC teams including every west team. He managed to beat Vandy 9 of 14 times and 'owned' Ole Miss winning 21 of 29. And, he won ~60% of his SECT games.
He always reminded me of Bianco; good league teams but just couldn't get past that first hurdle.
Based on our #12 of 14 SEC BB budget, lack of high level HS players, and competition for players ... Ray has an up-hill climb. He has done an outstanding job with what he was dealt and it will be interesting to watch his recruiting. Because while 50% is coaching, the other 50% is recruiting.
So he beat the SEC teams because he had the luxury of playing in the SEC? So the other teams playing in the SEC didn't have the luxury of playing in the SEC??? WTF Talk about your circular reasoning.
Yes less teams in the SEC put the resources/energy into basketball. We were willing to do what we needed to do to bring in talent. Others didnt have that talent and we were able to win on talent alone. If he were in a conference like the ACC where more teams have great talent then it would be harder to accomplish the same things.
Is logic out of reach for you?
[/h]Oh I get it because Stans and Gottfried both coached in the SEC....
Jesus I am dealing with full blown retards on this board today between you tenure cookie and the goat.
Ok here it goes.
Gottfried had Bama ranked #1 in the polls
Gottfried got Bama to the Elite 8
Gottfried actually coaches the game, did you watch them vs Duke? He played 6 players and got every ounce of energy out of them. Something only Brandon Vincent and Timmy Bowers could accomplish apparently
In his first year at NC St he got them to the Sweet 16, something Stans never did.
But by all means because one coach from the SEC did it then you have a witty comment. Idiot.
Logic? There's nothing logical about circular reasoning.
If Stansbury was afforded some luxury of coaching in the SEC, guess what, every other coach in the SEC had the same luxury. That's called logic.
Some "opinion" of yours that other teams didn't put "resources/energy" into their programs is just that, an opinion. And not one supported by much evidence. We had the 11th place budget out of 12 teams. Stans wasn't recruiting to Lexington, or Nashville, or Gainesville.
If Stansbury was afforded some luxury of coaching in the SEC, guess what, every other coach in the SEC had the same luxury. That's called logic.
Some "opinion" of yours that other teams didn't put "resources/energy" into their programs is just that, an opinion. And not one supported by much evidence. We had the 11th place budget out of 12 teams. Stans wasn't recruiting to Lexington, or Nashville, or Gainesville.
What was Stansbury's head to head record against Gottfried? I think they split the series over 10 years and Stansbury probably had the overall edge with his postseason SEC tournament wins against Gottfried. They were pretty much equals and I would give the overall talent edge to Gottfried over the years.