So the 49ers go from a 1st rd pick in Smith (prototypical pocket passer w/out big arm) to Kaepernick who was a nobody from Nevada (dual threat qb who adds rushing dimension to their team). Remind you of an argument me, C34 & Cadaver were on earlier this week? Both parenthesis breakdowns describe our QBs. Doesn't make Alex Smith any less of a QB (wow didn't Mullen even compare Smith to Tyler) just means Kaepernick adds a dimension to a team already built to do so. Hmmmm....
Smith/Kaepernick is Tyler/Dak same comparo
- Thread starter Coach 57
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Except that Alex Smith sucks
Actually, I think it proves the point that Dan should be able to adjust his offense to adjust to our personnel since Harbaugh's offense that he ran at Stanford when Andrew Luck was his QB and what he is running with Kaepernick is vastly different. And I believe Harbaugh prefers to run a more traditional style offense.
Actually, I think it proves the point that Dan should be able to adjust his offense to adjust to our personnel since Harbaugh's offense that he ran at Stanford when Andrew Luck was his QB and what he is running with Kaepernick is vastly different. And I believe Harbaugh prefers to run a more traditional style offense.
He's basically running the Nevada plays, which is fine, but I get a kick when they call someon in the press box a genius. I think the point is decent, but relatively speaking, Russell is better than Smith(relatively) and I have no idea if Dak is as good as Kapernick. I get the point though. I think the bigger point is Mullen can only coach one style QB. We should not go after another style any more.
So Tyler is better than a former 1st overall pick who went undefeated and won a bcs game, and dak could possibly be as good as a 2nd end pick who is starting for a team playing in the nfc championship? Yeah that makes sense. As far as mullen only being able to coach one style of qb, see Smith, Alex and Leak, Chris
Smith is not a bad QB. He's suffered more from the constant coaching carousel and especially at offensive coordinator. I think he's had a different OC since coming to the pros up until last year. When he was benched he had one of the highest QB ratings in the league. If he had I think about 40 more attempts he would qualify for the minimum snaps to qualify for QB ratings and he would be at the top of the league right now. Kaepernick just brings way more athleticism and speed.
I agree about the OC. He's basically ripping off the Chris Ault at Nevada. What Greg Roman is doing with the 49ers is common sense.
But I got the point. My point is I expect our coaches to adapt to our players.
It's kind of funny to me- with Croom, he got heavily criticized for not adapting to Conner and running the spread option. And rightfully so. But now Dan has to run the spread option and bench the QB instead of adapting his offense?
Especially in this case because here you have a coach that wants to run the West Coast Offense, but he has a pistol QB- so what does he do? He runs the pistol with some WCO mixed in. The point would be more valid to me if Harbaugh were to bench Kaepernick and play Smith because that's what he is more comfortable doing.
I think Harbaugh again did a good job
of getting the offense to fit his QB in that case as well. He basically put in built in hot routes and zone busters in the plays to simplify things for Smith.
Obviously, I'm not as impressed with Smith as I am Harbaugh. And let's not forget what Harbaugh did with Andrew Luck in college as far as development.
I think Harbaugh is a big reason why Smith has had the success has had the past two years. It will be interesting to see what happens with him going forward.
of getting the offense to fit his QB in that case as well. He basically put in built in hot routes and zone busters in the plays to simplify things for Smith.
Obviously, I'm not as impressed with Smith as I am Harbaugh. And let's not forget what Harbaugh did with Andrew Luck in college as far as development.
I think Harbaugh is a big reason why Smith has had the success has had the past two years. It will be interesting to see what happens with him going forward.
You only adapt when you don't have the personnel to run your style....We do.
Croom didn't have a QB in the wings that could do as good or better possibly that also happened to fit his offense. Not only that, Croom had never been a head coach before, so nobody really had anything to base his WCO on...we just knew that what we were doing was terrible.
Plus, you said you expect our coaches to adapt to our players...not Player. We have no proven receivers next year and you want to build the offense around a passing QB for his last season? With nothing but dual threats behind him? Why?
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You've asked the most pertinent question......
Yet it will be ignored like the plague. The answer is obvious when you actually think it through.
Regardless, this whole argument is dumb. Most of us with any form of football IQ know Dak *should* start next year. But we also know that Russell will be the starter, we'll continue to half-*** the offense, and struggle to move the ball in conference play against even average defenses. Our record will wind up somewhere between 4-8 & 6-6 and we'll have wasted an entire season.
Yet it will be ignored like the plague. The answer is obvious when you actually think it through.
Regardless, this whole argument is dumb. Most of us with any form of football IQ know Dak *should* start next year. But we also know that Russell will be the starter, we'll continue to half-*** the offense, and struggle to move the ball in conference play against even average defenses. Our record will wind up somewhere between 4-8 & 6-6 and we'll have wasted an entire season.
I agree. Harbaugh has done wonders with smith. If he had someone like Harbaugh starting off he would be a much better QB. He has suffered because of poor coaching.
Jim Harbaugh disagrees with you
You said you should adapt when you don't have personnel. The 49ers have that with Alex Smith. So, why don't they start him? Because Kaepernick can do a better job.
It's the same with us. Tyler at this point is better as a QB than Dak. Don't get me wrong- Dak did well with his limited package. But regardless of whether we want to be a spread option team- you play the best players. Dak has to get better as a passer. He will get there- but he has to have time to develop. Running a limited package and having to make actual reads and having the pressure of being a starting QB in the SEC is VERY different. One thing that concerned me about Dak- when we had to have a first down against Ole Miss and we chose to throw it on 4th and 1- he didn't get the job done. Now, yes- we should have run it. But when asked to make a throw- which I believe was a slant with only one read- it was badly thrown behind the WR. Why do you think Dan is starting Tyler?
About Croom- Croom should have adjusted. He did not. He was bashed for it. But now Dan has to sit the better QB because he "doesn't fit"? That actually sounds Croomish to me.
About our personnel- we also have really no proven running backs either other than Perkins- who is not an every down back, and is actually better served in the passing game, so why should we be running every play with a basically unproven QB and unproven RB's other than the one that isn't an every down back? Malcolm Johnson IS a proven receiver and he will be healthy. So, basically we have have one proven WR and one proven RB who is better as a pass catcher.
The real issue with the offense isn't Tyler, and it isn't Dan only being able to run the spread option. It's Les Koenning not being able to play call worth a darn. If you don't believe me, I again refer you to Chris Relf's senior year and the play calling that season which was also for the most part horrible. Because part of the reason our backs are unproven is because Les apparently thinks Perkins is JJ Johnson. I say the solution is to do whatever it takes to get Chapelle, and at least one other WR to be a deep threat in the off season- and BTW I've heard that Brewster thinks he can do quite a bit with Joe Morrow given a full off season to work with him- and then find ways to use our TE's, and then rotate Perkins while using him more in the passing game, Robinson and Shumpert at RB.
You said you should adapt when you don't have personnel. The 49ers have that with Alex Smith. So, why don't they start him? Because Kaepernick can do a better job.
It's the same with us. Tyler at this point is better as a QB than Dak. Don't get me wrong- Dak did well with his limited package. But regardless of whether we want to be a spread option team- you play the best players. Dak has to get better as a passer. He will get there- but he has to have time to develop. Running a limited package and having to make actual reads and having the pressure of being a starting QB in the SEC is VERY different. One thing that concerned me about Dak- when we had to have a first down against Ole Miss and we chose to throw it on 4th and 1- he didn't get the job done. Now, yes- we should have run it. But when asked to make a throw- which I believe was a slant with only one read- it was badly thrown behind the WR. Why do you think Dan is starting Tyler?
About Croom- Croom should have adjusted. He did not. He was bashed for it. But now Dan has to sit the better QB because he "doesn't fit"? That actually sounds Croomish to me.
About our personnel- we also have really no proven running backs either other than Perkins- who is not an every down back, and is actually better served in the passing game, so why should we be running every play with a basically unproven QB and unproven RB's other than the one that isn't an every down back? Malcolm Johnson IS a proven receiver and he will be healthy. So, basically we have have one proven WR and one proven RB who is better as a pass catcher.
The real issue with the offense isn't Tyler, and it isn't Dan only being able to run the spread option. It's Les Koenning not being able to play call worth a darn. If you don't believe me, I again refer you to Chris Relf's senior year and the play calling that season which was also for the most part horrible. Because part of the reason our backs are unproven is because Les apparently thinks Perkins is JJ Johnson. I say the solution is to do whatever it takes to get Chapelle, and at least one other WR to be a deep threat in the off season- and BTW I've heard that Brewster thinks he can do quite a bit with Joe Morrow given a full off season to work with him- and then find ways to use our TE's, and then rotate Perkins while using him more in the passing game, Robinson and Shumpert at RB.
I guess I'm crazy enough to go up against the plague
I'll ask the question that a lot of the spread option fans don't want asked though- what would our record be with Dak starting at QB next year given our schedule? Most people think we are going to go 5-7 to 6-6 anyway because we are playing Oklahoma State.
I do think the answer is obvious- look at where our offenses have ranked under Koenning during his tenure.
I'll ask the question that a lot of the spread option fans don't want asked though- what would our record be with Dak starting at QB next year given our schedule? Most people think we are going to go 5-7 to 6-6 anyway because we are playing Oklahoma State.
I do think the answer is obvious- look at where our offenses have ranked under Koenning during his tenure.
If Dak had played more snaps in our last 2 games we'd have 2 more W's...
FWIW. Not hard to see he would have steamrolled Northwestern and OM game would have been completely diff.
That being said our coaches get too GD fancy on play calling and outsmart themselves more often than they outsmart the defense.
Either way we should be much improved now that "Rush 3, Cover 0" Wilson is gone.
FWIW. Not hard to see he would have steamrolled Northwestern and OM game would have been completely diff.
That being said our coaches get too GD fancy on play calling and outsmart themselves more often than they outsmart the defense.
Either way we should be much improved now that "Rush 3, Cover 0" Wilson is gone.
Lulz wut? What have you seen from dak to make any kind of realistic assumption of play over the course of a full game?
Also, Alex smith is going to be courted by about 10 NFL teams this offseason. He may not be Brady or Rodgers or brees, but he's still one of the best 30 or so QBs in the world. But hey, don't let that get in the way of some poorly executed analogy.
Also, Alex smith is going to be courted by about 10 NFL teams this offseason. He may not be Brady or Rodgers or brees, but he's still one of the best 30 or so QBs in the world. But hey, don't let that get in the way of some poorly executed analogy.
Still some are completely missing myself, C34 and Cadaver's point. I think Todd gets it to a degree but here it is again. We aren't saying Kaepernick.....I mean Dak is a BETTER qb than Smith....erred I mean Russell, it just means our team (or the 49ers) are built and designed to be BETTER with a QB like Dak in there. Tyler could go to Bama and it would be HIS girlfriend in the stands Mussburger's talking about (haven't seen her but u get my drift). As a matter of fact he would've been pretty dang good in Croom's offense as well. Both are pro sets and he would've worked the play action like a wizard. But we don't have pro set personnel or a pro set scheme or a pro set OC. And mix that with a hard headed coach and you get a nullified offense when we face a decent DC. All you have to do against us is play man press (as we all know we don't have the WRs who can get separation and a qb with a negative pocket presence (what y'all call holding on to the ball too long) mix it with the fact that he forces balls into converge and you get losing 5 out of the last 6. And those 5 all had good/decent DCs that all saw the same thing. Mix a couple of blitzes and poof we're losing. Playing Dak doesn't allow teams to play man press (exactly what happened to GBs defense) as if there is a missed tackle at the line of scrimmage he's gone. So as a defense, your forced to play alot of zone in which our WRs don't HAVE to get separation all they have to do is find the hole in it.
It's not that simple....
DAK has not been tested. It's one thing to trot onto the field and run a few plays on the five yard line and it's another to play an entire game having to make adjustments and call the correct reads. This is the classic "play the back-up argument." TR gives us the best opportunity to win, I know it, Mullen knows it and DAK probably knows it as well. I agree that we have issues, and play-calling is at the top of the list along with poor attitude(s) and lack of emotion. If those points aren't addressed, we will be lucky to win six games next year. Also, our receivers need to run better routes. I watched TR being chased out of the pocket on several occasions and our receivers stood still and did not move back and try to get open... There is plenty of blame to go around to account for our 1-5 finish, but we should not overhaul the offense. One reason is because I don't want to listen to you guys bitching and moaning three games into the season that we made a mistake....which starting DAK would be...
DAK has not been tested. It's one thing to trot onto the field and run a few plays on the five yard line and it's another to play an entire game having to make adjustments and call the correct reads. This is the classic "play the back-up argument." TR gives us the best opportunity to win, I know it, Mullen knows it and DAK probably knows it as well. I agree that we have issues, and play-calling is at the top of the list along with poor attitude(s) and lack of emotion. If those points aren't addressed, we will be lucky to win six games next year. Also, our receivers need to run better routes. I watched TR being chased out of the pocket on several occasions and our receivers stood still and did not move back and try to get open... There is plenty of blame to go around to account for our 1-5 finish, but we should not overhaul the offense. One reason is because I don't want to listen to you guys bitching and moaning three games into the season that we made a mistake....which starting DAK would be...
Completely agree. Alex Smith has gotten a bum rap. He had a great year last season and was off to a good start this year until he got injured.
However, Smith has an athletic ceiling that Kapernick does not have and it took balls of steel for Harbaugh to make that move when he did. Smith will be snapped up as a free agentin about two seconds after the season and justifiably so.
However, Smith has an athletic ceiling that Kapernick does not have and it took balls of steel for Harbaugh to make that move when he did. Smith will be snapped up as a free agentin about two seconds after the season and justifiably so.
Do you not understand that is exactly what happened and the mindset the 9ers fans had when Harbaugh decided to play Kaepernick? Just like Dak he would come in on redzone opportunities. The difference is Harbaugh has balls the size of grapefruits and isn't thick headed and our coach is. When he announced Kaepernick was the starter ESPN analysts thought it was a mistake. Especially their fans. Alex Smith didn't turn the ball over and was pretty darned accurate (much like Tyler) but didn't or couldn't create big plays down the field because of his arm strength was lacking (much like Tyler). All the big plays they hit were Y.A.Cs (yards after the catch) mainly to the fastest TE in the history of the NFL. Kaepernick has a big arm (like Dak) lacks touch (like Dak and most athletic qbs do). But it's a trade off that has allowed the 9ers to go from a division champ to what I think is a Super Bowl team. If Alex Smith played last night too much pressure would've been on the defense and they would've lost (much like we did the last 2 games). Their offense would've been predictable (like ours). I'm not saying Dak would've helped us change the Bama or LSU game. But against aTm (probably would've still lost) it would've been more effective. And I think we would've won the last 2 games.
Think about this Vs NW when Dak kept the read and the saftey BARELY caught his foot to prevent a sure fire TD for us. The game was still tight right there. The next play Perk snatched the ball away from Dak (as Dak was trying to keep because of the DE was pinching) we lost yds. The next play we throw a bubble screen to the field side and Dak never got laces and tried to muscle it in. Incomplete then on 3rd & 12 (I think) Tyler comes in and nothing happens. I understand this game better than most on here, let me tell you this. At that point Dak is forcing things.....do you know why? Because he is trying to make the most out of the snaps he gets (hero ball). If he were to get more snaps, his mindset would be different and he wouldn't force things. Think about it for a second, if you knew this was probably all you're going to get....you would do the same. But lets take a different approach, what happens if he scores right there. What happens if he'd have made the safety miss the tackle? We score and we're right back in it. What would Dan have done? What kind of controversy would he have created going into this year based on his decision? Just something more to consider.
Think about this Vs NW when Dak kept the read and the saftey BARELY caught his foot to prevent a sure fire TD for us. The game was still tight right there. The next play Perk snatched the ball away from Dak (as Dak was trying to keep because of the DE was pinching) we lost yds. The next play we throw a bubble screen to the field side and Dak never got laces and tried to muscle it in. Incomplete then on 3rd & 12 (I think) Tyler comes in and nothing happens. I understand this game better than most on here, let me tell you this. At that point Dak is forcing things.....do you know why? Because he is trying to make the most out of the snaps he gets (hero ball). If he were to get more snaps, his mindset would be different and he wouldn't force things. Think about it for a second, if you knew this was probably all you're going to get....you would do the same. But lets take a different approach, what happens if he scores right there. What happens if he'd have made the safety miss the tackle? We score and we're right back in it. What would Dan have done? What kind of controversy would he have created going into this year based on his decision? Just something more to consider.
Yes I see Smith fit in quite nicely for the Jets. Ball control offense that CAN'T turn the ball over (Smith doesn't) and is athletic enough from time to time to throw accurately when moving his launch point. No doubt. But Smith wasn't benched because he got hurt...he was benched because Kaepernick has a greater ceiling based on personnel and allows them to be MORE aggressive in their playcalling. Kaepernick has a MUCH bigger arm, more athletic and it allows Harbaugh better chances to control the line of scrimmage. Make no mistake Harbaugh wants to run the ball. Kaepernick gives them added dimension to do so. Much like Dak would allow our offense to be less predictable and allow our WRs more space and separation to work with.
Relf was nothing more than a spot player before he took over in 2010....and EVERYTHING we have seen out of Dak is better than Relf at the same point in their careers.
To me it simply comes down to this:
Would we be better off having 40 plays of offense in the hands of Dak, Perkins, and JRob carrying the load running zone reads, counters, and option- with 20-25 passes to our our WR's who are largely untested
OR
Would we be better off with Tyler and the untested WR's throwing it 30-35 times per game- no threat of the QB running the ball-and then zone stretch runs and the counter with Perk and JRob- with Dak coming in on 3rd and short and goalline plays?
I think it's option 1 myself
Well said. Been tied up today, but I think 57 and 34 are on the money with this one.
In response to Bogey, it is nowhere close to "a classic case of just wanting the backup". If you would have read anything we said in this thread, you would realize that and never have made that statement.
Harbaugh was in the same situation as we will be in next season. He has a team with a decent/good passing QB with limited mobility, 1 decent WR(we actually have zero of these returning), 1 good TE, a great OLine, and a stable of RBs. We will have the same thing. So what did Harbaugh do? He decided to play to their strengths and go with the talented dual threat QB that had been solid off the bench.
The only difference in his situation and Mullen's, was that Mullen's dual threat guy (Dak) was far less experienced than his passing QB. So rather than feed the freshman to the wolves, he gave "going pass heavy" a shot. It led to 8 wins but not a great offense....so maybe now he should get back to what works.
The schedule is tough next year, we have no talent returning at WR, we have an experienced OLine returning, we have a stable of RB's returning, and we have an experienced dual threat guy returning at QB. Nothing about the above says "play the passing QB". At the very minimum there will be little difference in the win column expected from either...but the upside to Dak is better because of the OLine and RB's vs Russell's WR options. So would you rather go with Russell and basically know you've got 4-6 wins coming...not much higher can be expected with that schedule. OR do you go with a ground game that can potentially run clock, shorten games, and keep you in games against better competition because of the experience at the key positions? Dak may not make us "predict" more wins, but he gives our team a higher "potential" ceiling next year....Meaning, Daknand Tyler both beat the scrubs next year, but Dak gives us a better chance at the toss ups and expected losses, due to the style of play we would have to play, in my opinion.
Unless Chappelle and Corey Smith (who will be playing for Ohio State) are Corderelle Patterson and Justin Hunter....our offense can not possibly get better with Russell under center. Why? Because he will have no experience to throw to, and teams will stack the box and not have to fear Russell keeping it on the Option read.
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Actually,
There is an Option 3 - Go with both. Start Tyler, but play Dak in situations just like Tebow did at Florida. Dak gets the experience he needs for the following two years and teams have to prepare for both offenses. If Tyler and the offense struggle, don't hesitate to go to Dak. When we need to burn time, run Dak and the spread option.
There is an Option 3 - Go with both. Start Tyler, but play Dak in situations just like Tebow did at Florida. Dak gets the experience he needs for the following two years and teams have to prepare for both offenses. If Tyler and the offense struggle, don't hesitate to go to Dak. When we need to burn time, run Dak and the spread option.
Biscuit actually there isn't an option 3. And the reason for that is studying Tyler as I have he is a rhythm type of qb or streaky type. Once he is in a slump and in the dumps he is going to stay there. And with a qb like that he is a "reps hog" not only in practice but in games as well. And I think that Dan might normally want to play Dak more not giving that circumstance. Dan has even said as much many times before. And that is another issue with this type of offense.
Until Dak proves he can get it done by
playing a whole game, not 4-5 plays per game, I will go with the known commodity. Yes, I realize we will not know for sure until he gets the opportunity. I get all of your points but I know TR can get it done when we can consistently run the ball, and he is given time in the pocket. I will concede if I'm proven wrong, and I do have some doubt based on his last two games.
playing a whole game, not 4-5 plays per game, I will go with the known commodity. Yes, I realize we will not know for sure until he gets the opportunity. I get all of your points but I know TR can get it done when we can consistently run the ball, and he is given time in the pocket. I will concede if I'm proven wrong, and I do have some doubt based on his last two games.
So by your rule of thumb, the QB that starts should continue starting until he graduates? How the 17 is Dak ever going to be a "known commodity" playing 4-5 plays a game? It's not like he chooses to only play 5 snaps. That is the whole point of this thread.
And what makes you think we will be able to "consistently run the ball"? Tyler will have no WR's returning, so teams will be able to load up the box and make him prove that he has WR's that can get open. And when they load the box, they only have to worry about 1 guy running the ball. Everything points to Dak being the best option...but it's a moot point, Russel will start.