Beaver Stadium reconstruction thread
- Thread starter Tom McAndrew
- Start date
Following the Jeffrey Field cam......
One of the cranes was removed a couple weeks ago.
The permanent concrete stairs have been installed.
The temporary bleachers should start being installed soon.
The seats in half of Sec. SAU have been removed. Maybe someone here knows why. Concrete maintenance? Will more be removed? Are they going to put in bleacher seats and move some students up there due to them being displaced? I hope it's simply routine maintenance. The students need to be as close to the field as possible.
One of the cranes was removed a couple weeks ago.
The permanent concrete stairs have been installed.
The temporary bleachers should start being installed soon.
The seats in half of Sec. SAU have been removed. Maybe someone here knows why. Concrete maintenance? Will more be removed? Are they going to put in bleacher seats and move some students up there due to them being displaced? I hope it's simply routine maintenance. The students need to be as close to the field as possible.
¢orporate $pon$or$hip for f*¢k’$ $ake.
Creamery sammiches are about $10 a pop, according to the "opportunities" to buy in quantity they send out.
Going to be like sitting in the 700 level at the Vet(Veterans Stadium in Philly for those who didn't know)
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I read a post on another board that suggested the stadium renovation is going significantly over budget. Not sure how true it may be, but if it is true, does anyone have concerns about Kraft’s financial acumen to manage such a situation?
I have heard the project is well over budget from a forman who works on the project.
Does this surprise anyone?
Well, a number of our construction projects are also over budget. Including the ones we estimated as recently as December.
I won't say any more on the subject matter because it will delve into the Forbidden Zone of Board Topics.
Yep, multiple reasons, including what you are alluding to, but my comment was more based on in the history of Penn State, when hasn’t a construction project gone over budget. Those on the BOT and their friends need to make sure they get their cut
I remember going to a Seahawks game and that upper deck was steep. It was like climbing up/down a ladder to get to/from my seat.
Government projects are almost always over budget. The low bid process at every level of government from local to federal rarely actually produces a low bid. The bid process leads to substandard contractors getting the project and going through a series of “change orders” that inevitably bring the cost up to what it should’ve been or beyond.
Name any major construction project anywhere that hasn’t gone over budget.
Penn State Architectural Engineering major is the best in the country and has been for years. It has the best Construction Management specialty in the country. In my first introductory class I asked the same question regarding the Montreal Olympics.
The head professor was Duke Hetimah (sp?)formerly of Turner Construction. He responded “that’s why we are here.” He built Madison Square Garden among other major projects.
I graduated from the program back in 1980. I called into the department and asked if they had anything to do with the project on a consulting basis. They said no.
Over-runs are generally caused by incomplete drawings and insufficient due diligence regarding underground conditions. Initial budgets come from concept drawings which should never be utilized as bid docs.
My guess is that they budgeted the project off of concept drawings and rushed to get started on a more or less design build process and kept adding stuff driving up the cost. Projects of this magnitude tend to grow as they move on and get more glorious as a monument to someone’s ego. I don’t think that is Kraft but more likely the BOT.
I bet the contractors are pretty happy……
Penn State Architectural Engineering major is the best in the country and has been for years. It has the best Construction Management specialty in the country. In my first introductory class I asked the same question regarding the Montreal Olympics.
The head professor was Duke Hetimah (sp?)formerly of Turner Construction. He responded “that’s why we are here.” He built Madison Square Garden among other major projects.
I graduated from the program back in 1980. I called into the department and asked if they had anything to do with the project on a consulting basis. They said no.
Over-runs are generally caused by incomplete drawings and insufficient due diligence regarding underground conditions. Initial budgets come from concept drawings which should never be utilized as bid docs.
My guess is that they budgeted the project off of concept drawings and rushed to get started on a more or less design build process and kept adding stuff driving up the cost. Projects of this magnitude tend to grow as they move on and get more glorious as a monument to someone’s ego. I don’t think that is Kraft but more likely the BOT.
I bet the contractors are pretty happy……
Beaver Stadium bid doc:
Work Package Cost
Renovate the stadium $700,000,000
Signature
________________
I'd be interested to know how it can be 'significantly' overbudget at this stage. They aren't very far into the project and they've only done the basic stuff.
I'm not sure Kraft has anything to do with managing this construction. It's up to others to do that work for Penn State.
I think your contention wrt P Kraft is reasonable.
But then, Who?
Bill Sitzabee, long time Penn State vice president for facilities management and planning, would have been the logical person at PSU in charge.
He left several months ago. As is often the case, rumors fly as to the reason why.
His position has not been filled.
Penn State’s OPP leader is leaving position soon | Centre Daily Times
Sara Thorndike?
Vinnie James?
Pete Cautilli?
I wouldn't expect even the most wildly optimistic person to expect any of them to have the background or expertise to oversee such a project.
So, Who?
Name any home project that you/we have done that didn’t go over budget? Welcome to renovation projects. Happens all the time. It just happens to be worse now because the price of everything has gone up exponentially recently. I had a garage door opener replaced recently. The guy told me that the circuit boards to replace them are up 120% due to tariffs because they come from Mexico. 120%. That’s insane. $650 for a circuit board for a garage door opener. I replaced the whole thing instead. More economical, but still expensive.
So a couple of more thoughts after reading through the posts
1. The project is just underway - not sure how the Foreman already knows the project is over budget (paraphrasing what has been said).
If it is over the line item budget, then it's more than likely due to cost of materials, which were probably costed out by Populous a couple of years ago. They are smart enough to throw in contingencies, but not based on what we are experiencing today.
2. Every foreman I have ever met always thinks the project is over budget. Whether it is, or not.
3. There is also an attitude of "you get one bite at the apple"....so any Project Owner (in this case, PSU Admin) realizes that it's easier and more effective to inlcude as much as possible once, rather than go back every year and end up nickel and diming (relatively speaking) the Board.
4. Poor design/lack of understanding of subsurface conditions/weather related issues, etc all play a part.
5. It's always fun to throw PSU Admin under the bus. But, these are simply how large construction projects go. In my experience and exposure, the only large construction project that I can think of that came in on time and budget was the expansion of the NJ Tpk from Exit 6 north. And I am not even sure about that.
1. The project is just underway - not sure how the Foreman already knows the project is over budget (paraphrasing what has been said).
If it is over the line item budget, then it's more than likely due to cost of materials, which were probably costed out by Populous a couple of years ago. They are smart enough to throw in contingencies, but not based on what we are experiencing today.
2. Every foreman I have ever met always thinks the project is over budget. Whether it is, or not.
3. There is also an attitude of "you get one bite at the apple"....so any Project Owner (in this case, PSU Admin) realizes that it's easier and more effective to inlcude as much as possible once, rather than go back every year and end up nickel and diming (relatively speaking) the Board.
4. Poor design/lack of understanding of subsurface conditions/weather related issues, etc all play a part.
5. It's always fun to throw PSU Admin under the bus. But, these are simply how large construction projects go. In my experience and exposure, the only large construction project that I can think of that came in on time and budget was the expansion of the NJ Tpk from Exit 6 north. And I am not even sure about that.
Thank you for the reasonable, well thought out response. Sometimes they are few and far between on here.
All true. My big gripe with builds is the (de)value engineering process towards the end in an attempt to save money. It almost always ends up costing more in the long term. For example, the Charles Moore expansion of the old Palmer Museum. You’ll notice that the mortar was dyed to match the bricks. Well, the design also called to dye the concrete of the plaza different colors for a giant mosaic pattern. To save money they just poured regular concrete and painted the pattern on. The result was the painted surface becoming a sheet of ice every winter and the pain being worn off by traffic requiring it to be repainted every couple of years. After 20some years of this nonsense, they hired a company to spend a couple of weeks grinding down the entire plaza to get rid on about 95% of the paint. If you look closely, you can see the faint remains of the different colors.
IMO that's due to legislators needing a low price in order to get the project approved. Private sector companies can't survive like that.
And this is the ALL.-KNOWING. BOARD.
. Imagine how bad it must be on all the stupid boards.Anything is possible, but it would be VERY surprising if the Beaver Stadium project came in "over budget", for several reasons. But "Never Say Never"
Large PSU capital projects rarely come in "over budget"
The most obvious and important reasons are:
1) PSU does not "bid out" contracts to the lowest bidder (I am surprised how many people still think that is the case - but it is not. Probably because it can be standard SOP in many government or other large entities)
In fact, PSU doesn't even "bid out to a list of pre-approved, pre-vetted" contractors (which is the very common practice among PSU's peers)
2) PSU CapX Admin decides how much money to ask the BOT to approve, and the BOT approves it (always). Knowing that, who would make an ask that would be tough to deliver on - working against their own self-interests?
That is (largely, or at least substantially) why large PSU capital projects typically cost 20%, 30%, 40% or more than comparable projects at our peers'.
It is rather difficult to go "over budget" in those scenarios - even if you try. Honestly, I can't - OTTOMH - remember any time in recent history that happened at PSU for large scale CapX (for the reasons above)
[Smaller projects are handled somewhat differently]
ie: Going over $700 Million on a project of this scope (that most of our peers would have had bid out at, lets say, somewhere around $500 Million or so) would be tough to do.
Lesser impact, but relevant:
The two primary building components here are Steel and Concrete.
3) For both Steel and Concrete: After large price increases in 2021 and 2022 and 2023, steel prices now are down from those highs (table below). They are creeping back up - but not nearly at those rates we saw over the last few years.
Whatever impact "price of steel and concrete" had in the projections for Beaver Stadium (the projections would have been taking place in 2023-24), the current pricing is almost certainly at or lower than those estimates. In any event, there would be no negative "surprises", at least to this date.
4) A large portion of the work/cost is already done (it often doesn't "look like it" in the early stages - as so much of the early work is not the pretty stuff that people will notice when it is all done) - and, one would assume, pricing is locked in on a large portion of what remains - so any future construction market costs volatility would not be all that impactful, if it were to occur.
There definitely are rumors and scuttlebutt around the local area wrt "cost overruns" and other project management issues. Who knows? There are some fairly well-known facts that would be congruent with those types of problems, but sometimes rumors are just rumors - sometimes they have legs. Still, the level of fat/wiggle room provided by the costing cover up a LOT of sins.
Best guess: The project comes in at something a tad UNDER $700 Million (would be my best somewhat educated guess) - and they likely will be adding, rather than subtracting, as the project nears completion. Time will tell. You never know.
Large PSU capital projects rarely come in "over budget"
The most obvious and important reasons are:
1) PSU does not "bid out" contracts to the lowest bidder (I am surprised how many people still think that is the case - but it is not. Probably because it can be standard SOP in many government or other large entities)
In fact, PSU doesn't even "bid out to a list of pre-approved, pre-vetted" contractors (which is the very common practice among PSU's peers)
2) PSU CapX Admin decides how much money to ask the BOT to approve, and the BOT approves it (always). Knowing that, who would make an ask that would be tough to deliver on - working against their own self-interests?
That is (largely, or at least substantially) why large PSU capital projects typically cost 20%, 30%, 40% or more than comparable projects at our peers'.
It is rather difficult to go "over budget" in those scenarios - even if you try. Honestly, I can't - OTTOMH - remember any time in recent history that happened at PSU for large scale CapX (for the reasons above)
[Smaller projects are handled somewhat differently]
ie: Going over $700 Million on a project of this scope (that most of our peers would have had bid out at, lets say, somewhere around $500 Million or so) would be tough to do.
Lesser impact, but relevant:
The two primary building components here are Steel and Concrete.
3) For both Steel and Concrete: After large price increases in 2021 and 2022 and 2023, steel prices now are down from those highs (table below). They are creeping back up - but not nearly at those rates we saw over the last few years.
Whatever impact "price of steel and concrete" had in the projections for Beaver Stadium (the projections would have been taking place in 2023-24), the current pricing is almost certainly at or lower than those estimates. In any event, there would be no negative "surprises", at least to this date.
4) A large portion of the work/cost is already done (it often doesn't "look like it" in the early stages - as so much of the early work is not the pretty stuff that people will notice when it is all done) - and, one would assume, pricing is locked in on a large portion of what remains - so any future construction market costs volatility would not be all that impactful, if it were to occur.
There definitely are rumors and scuttlebutt around the local area wrt "cost overruns" and other project management issues. Who knows? There are some fairly well-known facts that would be congruent with those types of problems, but sometimes rumors are just rumors - sometimes they have legs. Still, the level of fat/wiggle room provided by the costing cover up a LOT of sins.
Best guess: The project comes in at something a tad UNDER $700 Million (would be my best somewhat educated guess) - and they likely will be adding, rather than subtracting, as the project nears completion. Time will tell. You never know.
Any time you have such a round number with a 7 followed by eight zeros you know something is wrong. There is no way that so many subcontractors bids add up to an exact number like $70 MM!
it’s an “allowance” to spend money to get a pretty picture accomplished to make everybody happy. Some people are happier than others and I would love to be that happy GC running the show. Cha-Ching!
I've been there; the steps were so steep it felt like tripping on a step would be bye, bye Miss American Pie......
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Question: is the structural steel & aluminum being imported? Does the contract stipulate "Buy American"?
My son manages a bridge construction company, does the estimating, trouble shoots on site construction problems, etc.
His state & federal projects are influenced by the "Buy American" rules and regulations. "A long-standing preference for using domestic products in federal manufacturing, supply, and construction procurements."
- "Market fluctuations can send steel prices swinging like a pendulum, also the price is influenced by trade deals and energy prices."
- "Material quality is a big player in cost variations. Higher-grade steel, such as structural or alloy steel, usually costs more. Prices can swing from $0.90 to $2.50 per pound, depending on the quality. According to a study by the Steel Manufacturers Association, better materials lead to fewer failures in structural projects. You don’t want that “oops” moment during construction."
- "Market demand is like that friend who won’t stop borrowing your tools—always fluctuating. When construction booms, prices tend to rise, 20% leap in costs in 2022 followed heightened demand."
I don't know how this project was handled, but I've designed several projects for Penn State at Commonwealth Campuses and those projects were all bid out to a select number of contractors and for the most part, they went to the lowest bidder. They also awarded the professional services contracts to the lowest consulting/design firm too. Big projects like this at University Park could be different.
So far, most of what they've done has been the demo, grading, installing foundations, setting steel, pouring decks, etc. That's a lot of work but not many unknowns there. The existing structure was an erector set so I can't think of anything with demo or tie in's with new structure that could be a problem unless there was some corrosion or pieces of steel that needed to be replaced. I guess there could be issues with foundations - bad soil, limestone, etc. that could add cost. Maybe the poor weather impacted construction and they had to work a bunch of overtime to catch up?
..... "I think part of that press box was older than we imagined."Sooooo, we planted the seed & built on either side of the original press box
Good points.
FWIW: The process is far different for the major "approved by the Board" projects.
