Oregon wingnuts taking over a federal building because their fellow

bornaneer

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Man, you're a moron. Do you even pay attention to the threads?

Moron???? I have proven many times that you are actually the schmuck who is a moron. I pay close attention to the threads. That's why I always back you into a corner and you have zero answers. Your problem with me is I don't shuck and jive every time your "special friend" snaps his fingers. That's your problem. I love how you wannabees stick together.
 

mule_eer

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When you and your "special friend" can't seem to figure it out you always resort to name calling. Should have expected it would happen.
Are you post padding, or are you going to make several responses to the same post, then run with the one that gets the most likes? It looks like Country might be right on at least one point: you don't seem to be paying attention to the threads.
 

bornaneer

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Are you post padding, or are you going to make several responses to the same post, then run with the one that gets the most likes? It looks like Country might be right on at least one point: you don't seem to be paying attention to the threads.

Another cheerleader? Let me repeat.....I pay very close attention to the threads. Show me where I have not if you are so concerned.
 

bornaneer

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Are you post padding, or are you going to make several responses to the same post, then run with the one that gets the most likes? It looks like Country might be right on at least one point: you don't seem to be paying attention to the threads.

Since you wanted to jump in on this, when are you going to post examples of me not paying attention to posts in this thread? Tick....Tick...Tick...
 

WVUCOOPER

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Yes they haven't paid their fines and if they don't pay by the end of 2015 then they'll have to sale their land...guess who has right of first refusal on that land - the BLM....that happened during the court proceedings...how convenient for the Feds and the BLM.
The right of first refusal was part of the deal the ranchers struck with the government to lower the fines. The ranchers were able to lower their $1 million fine to $400 thousand. How convenient for them. FWIW, the family paid the $400 thousand fine before 12/31/15.
 
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Since you wanted to jump in on this, when are you going to post examples of me not paying attention to posts in this thread? Tick....Tick...Tick...

Because you were shocked that he went to school for 8 years. I won't divulge his occupation (that's up to him) but you shouldn't be surprised he went to school for 8 years.
 

Mntneer

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The right of first refusal was part of the deal the ranchers struck with the government to lower the fines. The ranchers were able to lower their $1 million fine to $400 thousand. How convenient for them. FWIW, the family paid the $400 thousand fine before 12/31/15.

Isn't the family, with the members going to jail, disavowing these loons taking over the federal buildings?
 
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bornaneer

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Because you were shocked that he went to school for 8 years. I won't divulge his occupation (that's up to him) but you shouldn't be surprised he went to school for 8 years.

I think I know his occupation. It appears that he wasted a lot of money. Apparently you don't know sarcasm when you see it.
 

rog1187

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Isn't the family, with the members going to jail, disavowing these loons taking over the federal buildings?
Yes the Hammonds want nothing to do with the Bundy's or the take over of the refuge.
 

WhiteTailEER

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From your article:
"
An attorney for the ranchers, Kendra Mathews, declined to discuss the case. The U.S. attorney's office also wouldn't comment. But in an opinion piece published this month in the Burns Times Herald, Oregon's U.S. attorney, Bill Williams, said the Hammonds received a fair trial and lawful sentences.

Williams said the government has never called the ranchers terrorists, and prosecutors acknowledged they were good people who contributed to their community.
"

So, my guess would be that arson of federal property is wrapped up into anti-terrorism law, but they admit that they were not referred to as terrorists. They were prosecuted for arson, not terrorism.
 

RichardPeterJohnson

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Are you serious? You spent 8 years in college and you came out probably dumber than when you entered? You should have tried a community college, a lot cheaper and you still would have ended up the same. What was the 45K for......golf lessons ?
I probably should just ignore this ignorant post among your continued line of many ignorant posts. But I enjoy making you look like the dumbass that you are. So I'll respond. First, you called me out as a poser in the world of golf. Then it was revealed that I not only had a competitive record in golf and was past president of my golf club, but I also moonlighted for Golf Digest magazine. So much for your ever-knowing claim. Now, not only are you babbling about my education (which includes two degrees-one of which is a doctorate) you apparently think I'm not very successful financially. While I'm not going to divulge my income, I'll say that I make enough to own and live in a nice home, own other real estate including an office building, have a nice retirement nest egg, send my kids to college with no debt, go wherever I want whenever I want, and give enough to my alma mater to sit in the AD's box at Mountaineer Field occasionally. Looks like you've struck out again, Einstein.
 
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WhiteTailEER

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I probably should just ignore this ignorant post among your continued line of many ignorant posts. But I enjoy making you look like the dumbass that you are. So I'll respond. First, you called me out as a poser in the world of golf. Then it was revealed that I not only had a competitive record in golf and was past president of my golf club, but I also moonlighted for Golf Digest magazine. So much for your ever-knowing claim. Now, not only are you babbling about my education (which includes two degrees-one of which is a doctorate) you apparently think I'm not very successful financially. While I'm not going to divulge my income, I'll say that I make enough to own and live in a nice home, own other real estate including an office building, have a nice retirement nest egg, send my kids to college with no debt, go wherever I want whenever I want, and give enough to my alma mater to sit in the AD's box at Mountaineer Field occasionally. Looks like you've struck out again, Einstein.

I'm up for adoption ... just sayin'
 

WhiteTailEER

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That's my point, generations have been raised that this is ok and fine. You know it, and I know it. I wish that there was a limit to how long and how many generations can benefit from welfare.

I've never denied that. Here's my concern though. And really this is more or less where I fall on the majority of issues like this. There are abuses, absolutely, but how rampant are they? How much would it cost to weed them out? (like in the case of mandatory drug testing) Would weeding them out reduce costs overall? How many people that DON'T abuse the system will be hurt by the actions required to eliminate the people that abuse the system? What are unintended consequences of these actions? (i.e. a rise in crime because people are starving and desperate)

A lot of people make the point about guns that no matter what they do there will be people that find ways around it. The same is always going to be true of any of these government programs no matter what you do.
 

RichardPeterJohnson

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From your article:
"
An attorney for the ranchers, Kendra Mathews, declined to discuss the case. The U.S. attorney's office also wouldn't comment. But in an opinion piece published this month in the Burns Times Herald, Oregon's U.S. attorney, Bill Williams, said the Hammonds received a fair trial and lawful sentences.

Williams said the government has never called the ranchers terrorists, and prosecutors acknowledged they were good people who contributed to their community.
"

So, my guess would be that arson of federal property is wrapped up into anti-terrorism law, but they admit that they were not referred to as terrorists. They were prosecuted for arson, not terrorism.
These mandatory sentencing requirements are a joke. I find it hypocritical that many on the right are now appalled that these guys will serve a mandatory sentence which they see as excessive. While there is little outrage about the minimum required sentences many drug offenders get. I wonder why they have this double standard. If these nuts in Oregon were Black, that place would've been stormed by the cops on day 1. And we all know it.
 

WVUBRU

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I probably should just ignore this ignorant post among your continued line of many ignorant posts. But I enjoy making you look like the dumbass that you are. So I'll respond. First, you called me out as a poser in the world of golf. Then it was revealed that I not only had a competitive record in golf and was past president of my golf club, but I also moonlighted for Golf Digest magazine. So much for your ever-knowing claim. Now, not only are you babbling about my education (which includes two degrees-one of which is a doctorate) you apparently think I'm not very successful financially. While I'm not going to divulge my income, I'll say that I make enough to own and live in a nice home, own other real estate including an office building, have a nice retirement nest egg, send my kids to college with no debt, go wherever I want whenever I want, and give enough to my alma mater to sit in the AD's box at Mountaineer Field occasionally. Looks like you've struck out again, Einstein.
I think the lunatic is mad that Neil and robeert has out -crazy him so far in 2016.
 

WhiteTailEER

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These mandatory sentencing requirements are a joke. I find it hypocritical that many on the right are now appalled that these guys will serve a mandatory sentence which they see as excessive. While there is little outrage about the minimum required sentences many drug offenders get. I wonder why they have this double standard. If these nuts in Oregon were Black, that place would've been stormed by the cops on day 1. And we all know it.

I don't have an issue with mandatory sentencing in general. I think it might be useful in the case of "gun control" to have very harsh mandatory sentences. Then the law abiding gun owners aren't inconvenienced but it might help deter the use of guns in crimes. Of course, I don't know how many people are thinking about the potential consequences when they are committing the crimes, so maybe it wouldn't.

Some of the other stuff though. Drug possession? Especially pot. So, somebody has some pot and they are on their way home with it ... jail? It's stupid, and it's clearly not working as our jails are overflowing and heroin is getting out of control.

I drive by a minimum security facility all the time. Recently the whole concept seemed incredibly archaic to me. We are basically still punishing people the same way we have for hundreds of years and it does nothing to stop crime. Should we not rethink the entire system? I don't know what the answer is, but what we are doing doesn't seem to work.
 

bamaEER

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I think the lunatic is mad that Neil and robeert has out -crazy him so far in 2016.
I wonder what ever happened to the king of crazies, MountainBill....talk about nuts. Maybe he just changed his name.
 

RichardPeterJohnson

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I don't have an issue with mandatory sentencing in general. I think it might be useful in the case of "gun control" to have very harsh mandatory sentences. Then the law abiding gun owners aren't inconvenienced but it might help deter the use of guns in crimes. Of course, I don't know how many people are thinking about the potential consequences when they are committing the crimes, so maybe it wouldn't.

Some of the other stuff though. Drug possession? Especially pot. So, somebody has some pot and they are on their way home with it ... jail? It's stupid, and it's clearly not working as our jails are overflowing and heroin is getting out of control.

I drive by a minimum security facility all the time. Recently the whole concept seemed incredibly archaic to me. We are basically still punishing people the same way we have for hundreds of years and it does nothing to stop crime. Should we not rethink the entire system? I don't know what the answer is, but what we are doing doesn't seem to work.
I mentioned yesterday that I got my daily dose of Fox news while at the gym. One of the stories I saw was a middle-aged white guy in FL who was looking at 6 counts of 20 years minimum each if convicted for shooting his gun in the air. I don't know the particulars other than what they reported (it is Fox afterall), other than he woke up in the middle of the night after taking Ambien which was apparently legitimately rxed and the guy apparently had no memory of the incident and had no other criminal history. That is completely unfair. The judge is not a robot. He or she is there to administer justice. This would not be justice given that the judge has no option but to follow the law which was passed by a bunch of reactionary politicians. And as an aside, I can't imagine Fox taking up the mandatory sentencing issues which have placed many low income people in the slammer for drugs.
 

mule_eer

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Since you wanted to jump in on this, when are you going to post examples of me not paying attention to posts in this thread? Tick....Tick...Tick...
You posted 2 different responses to the same post at least twice in this thread, mine being at least the second occurrence. Both responses to the individual posts were similar in nature and back-to-back. If you aren't paying attention, then you are doing that on purpose. Maybe you can explain that reasoning to me.

Also, labeling everyone who posts anything that might not agree with you 100% a cheerleader is counter productive. You claim to want to have reasonable discourse, but the times I've had reasonable "conversations " with you, I've had to do the leg work - move around your claims of my bias to find out that we were actually in agreement.
 

WhiteTailEER

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I mentioned yesterday that I got my daily dose of Fox news while at the gym. One of the stories I saw was a middle-aged white guy in FL who was looking at 6 counts of 20 years minimum each if convicted for shooting his gun in the air. I don't know the particulars other than what they reported (it is Fox afterall), other than he woke up in the middle of the night after taking Ambien which was apparently legitimately rxed and the guy apparently had no memory of the incident and had no other criminal history. That is completely unfair. The judge is not a robot. He or she is there to administer justice. This would not be justice given that the judge has no option but to follow the law which was passed by a bunch of reactionary politicians. And as an aside, I can't imagine Fox taking up the mandatory sentencing issues which have placed many low income people in the slammer for drugs.

To me ... that would/should be a case that never makes it to trial. We need to apply some common sense, which I guess is what gets taken out of the judge's hands with mandatory sentencing. I guess I should change my mind about that one, I wasn't thinking of cases like that.
 
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I hate to keep jumping on Fox all the time (they make it too easy) but I'm going to again.
If the Hammonds don't want anything to do with the Bundys and these other militia groups don't agree with trespassing on the Wildlife Refuge Building (U.S. Government property) in this case, but Fox is defending them, what does that say about Fox News? Will the light bulb eventually turn on for some of you?
 

WhiteTailEER

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I hate to keep jumping on Fox all the time (they make it too easy) but I'm going to again.
If the Hammonds don't want anything to do with the Bundys and these other militia groups don't agree with trespassing on the Wildlife Refuge Building (U.S. Government property) in this case, but Fox is defending them, what does that say about Fox News? Will the light bulb eventually turn on for some of you?

Short and simple ... if there was a Republican in the White House, the Fox News slant would be entirely different.
 

bornaneer

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I probably should just ignore this ignorant post among your continued line of many ignorant posts. But I enjoy making you look like the dumbass that you are. So I'll respond. First, you called me out as a poser in the world of golf. Then it was revealed that I not only had a competitive record in golf and was past president of my golf club, but I also moonlighted for Golf Digest magazine. So much for your ever-knowing claim. Now, not only are you babbling about my education (which includes two degrees-one of which is a doctorate) you apparently think I'm not very successful financially. While I'm not going to divulge my income, I'll say that I make enough to own and live in a nice home, own other real estate including an office building, have a nice retirement nest egg, send my kids to college with no debt, go wherever I want whenever I want, and give enough to my alma mater to sit in the AD's box at Mountaineer Field occasionally. Looks like you've struck out again, Einstein.

Maybe you have a hard time reading.....I did concede you should be considered a golf "expert" based on your credentials and posted that consession . My comments about your education were pure sarcasm. I HAVE NEVER commented about your finaces. It looks to me that you are a very successful person in a lot of areas and I actually admire you for that since I like successful peoople . And unlike you, I have never made a single CRUDE remark about any member of your family. My biggest issue with you is that you are narrow minded, intolerant and a broad brush artist. You love to put people down but have a very thin skin when the tables are turned. If saying that I have struck out again make you feel good......go for it.
 

WhiteTailEER

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I think you're confusing the two rancher issues.

I don't think so, because I think I went back and read the Cliven Bundy articles and he had a 6,000 acre ranch with cattle and ____ (some kind of fruit, I think), but that it was leased from the government. When he didn't want to pay, they came in to confiscate some of his cattle and that started the whole bruhaha.

I'll go back and read again. I bounce around to so many different things though, that I do get things mixed up at times.

Other than what the Bundy's are doing now, I don't think there's any confusion with the Hammond case. Except that there was supposed to be a mandatory sentence that wasn't enforced, so that part was repealed and they reported (today, I think) to serve the rest of their sentence while also continuing with all legal means at their disposal.


This explains it from the beginning ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ween-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

I was getting things mixed up.
 

rog1187

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I don't think so, because I think I went back and read the Cliven Bundy articles and he had a 6,000 acre ranch with cattle and ____ (some kind of fruit, I think), but that it was leased from the government. When he didn't want to pay, they came in to confiscate some of his cattle and that started the whole bruhaha.

I'll go back and read again. I bounce around to so many different things though, that I do get things mixed up at times.

Other than what the Bundy's are doing now, I don't think there's any confusion with the Hammond case. Except that there was supposed to be a mandatory sentence that wasn't enforced, so that part was repealed and they reported (today, I think) to serve the rest of their sentence while also continuing with all legal means at their disposal.
Their initial trial was plea-bargained...but then the Feds didn't like the sentence and appealed it....again, after they agreed to a plea bargain.
 

WhiteTailEER

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Their initial trial was plea-bargained...but then the Feds didn't like the sentence and appealed it....again, after they agreed to a plea bargain.

When you enter a plea bargain, does that include the sentencing or just the charges? Because what the Feds appealed was that there was supposed to be a minimum sentence associated with the charge.
 

Airport

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I've never denied that. Here's my concern though. And really this is more or less where I fall on the majority of issues like this. There are abuses, absolutely, but how rampant are they? How much would it cost to weed them out? (like in the case of mandatory drug testing) Would weeding them out reduce costs overall? How many people that DON'T abuse the system will be hurt by the actions required to eliminate the people that abuse the system? What are unintended consequences of these actions? (i.e. a rise in crime because people are starving and desperate)

A lot of people make the point about guns that no matter what they do there will be people that find ways around it. The same is always going to be true of any of these government programs no matter what you do.

I believe there's an estimate somewhere that there's at least a 20% waste in all govt programs. That includes defense, 400 million for a gas station in AFghanistan( I wonder what the 399,550,000 slush fund was used to pad) . I'm for auditing everything and firing govt workers for malfeasance and even prosecuting them. Govt is wasteful and the evidence shows it. We should give the military an ultimatum to close bases not needed and cut all govt spending by 10%. Make each agency weed out the corruption and overpayments or be fired. We have way too much waste and fraud. Beccause it might be difficult to weed out doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
 

rog1187

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When you enter a plea bargain, does that include the sentencing or just the charges? Because what the Feds appealed was that there was supposed to be a minimum sentence associated with the charge.
Don't know...I think it's just for the charges...I guess there might something said about sentencing, but ultimately the judge doesn't have to go along with that.
 

mule_eer

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I believe there's an estimate somewhere that there's at least a 20% waste in all govt programs. That includes defense, 400 million for a gas station in AFghanistan( I wonder what the 399,550,000 slush fund was used to pad) . I'm for auditing everything and firing govt workers for malfeasance and even prosecuting them. Govt is wasteful and the evidence shows it. We should give the military an ultimatum to close bases not needed and cut all govt spending by 10%. Make each agency weed out the corruption and overpayments or be fired. We have way too much waste and fraud. Beccause it might be difficult to weed out doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Do you think it might be possible that the costs reported for somethings like your gas station are adjusted to cover the costs of some things they can't put on a budget that is released publicly?

Shutting down bases isn't as much of a problem for the military as it is for Congress. No one wants a base closure in their district or state. It's the same issue with a lot of defense contracts. A helicopter that is used by the military will have parts facilities and production plants spread all throughout the country. Do they do that because it's the most efficient way to produce a product? Nope. They do that because they want the votes needed to keep production going - even if the military isn't interested in purchasing more of those helicopters.

My point is taht a ton of that waste is in the budgetary process, not at the worker level.
 

mule_eer

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Don't know...I think it's just for the charges...I guess there might something said about sentencing, but ultimately the judge doesn't have to go along with that.
If the agreed upon charges have a mandatory minimum, he's hamstrung by that mandate. That's why I don't like mandatory minimums - they take away the discretion of the judge.
 

WhiteTailEER

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Don't know...I think it's just for the charges...I guess there might something said about sentencing, but ultimately the judge doesn't have to go along with that.

If there's a mandatory sentence, it takes it out of the judge's hands. That's essentially what happened here ... the judge sentenced them to less, and then the prosecution came back on appeal and said "no, you can't do that, there was a mandatory sentence of 5 years", which is why they are heading back to prison now. They are getting credit for time already served, but the original sentence should have been 5 years so they have to serve the rest of it.
 

WhiteTailEER

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I believe there's an estimate somewhere that there's at least a 20% waste in all govt programs. That includes defense, 400 million for a gas station in AFghanistan( I wonder what the 399,550,000 slush fund was used to pad) . I'm for auditing everything and firing govt workers for malfeasance and even prosecuting them. Govt is wasteful and the evidence shows it. We should give the military an ultimatum to close bases not needed and cut all govt spending by 10%. Make each agency weed out the corruption and overpayments or be fired. We have way too much waste and fraud. Beccause it might be difficult to weed out doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

There is definitely waste. I'm all for looking at ways to minimize that waste, fraud and abuse. I'm just saying that we should also be careful to not harm the people that aren't abusing the system. It's really not much different than the argument gun owners use when more gun control is proposed. "Why punish me for what other people are doing?" That may not be the best correlation to try to make, but I'll run with it. :)
 
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WhiteTailEER

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Do you think it might be possible that the costs reported for somethings like your gas station are adjusted to cover the costs of some things they can't put on a budget that is released publicly?

Shutting down bases isn't as much of a problem for the military as it is for Congress. No one wants a base closure in their district or state. It's the same issue with a lot of defense contracts. A helicopter that is used by the military will have parts facilities and production plants spread all throughout the country. Do they do that because it's the most efficient way to produce a product? Nope. They do that because they want the votes needed to keep production going - even if the military isn't interested in purchasing more of those helicopters.

My point is taht a ton of that waste is in the budgetary process, not at the worker level.

I've had to go to various trainings and in one of them the instructor said that we have all of the aircraft carriers we need now, but we keep making them just so that we'll always have people/companies that know how to make them in the future.

It's kinda like me logging into sites frequently that I don't really need to log into just so I don't forget the password. :)
 

rog1187

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If there's a mandatory sentence, it takes it out of the judge's hands. That's essentially what happened here ... the judge sentenced them to less, and then the prosecution came back on appeal and said "no, you can't do that, there was a mandatory sentence of 5 years", which is why they are heading back to prison now. They are getting credit for time already served, but the original sentence should have been 5 years so they have to serve the rest of it.
Should they have been charged under the Anti-Terror act? That's at the base of the argument as well. The jury had found them guilty or arson and acquitted them of other charges...while the jury was still deliberating they reached a deal with the Feds...maybe their attorney should have done a better job of educating them on the possible circumstances. Then again did the Feds have to appeal?