OT: Possible NCAA Investigation into Michigan Scouting Opponents.
- Thread starter tico brown
- Start date
No need for signs there.. we worked from an opening script.
Pretty foolish comment from Due#, whoever that is.
I wouldn't come out and say either way, if I were Schiano. Let them believe I was just avoiding speaking ill of the poor and biased officiating.. which is now so common it is verging on obscene.
Wasn't Harbaugh seriously under-performing (by Michigan's standards) just a couple of years ago? There were threats that they might get rid of him and they restructured his contract. Then, miraculously, they put together a great season the next year? And, well - that hasn't let up. Wonder what could've prompted such an immediate turn-around.
Shelby thought he was speaking of the officiating, probably the same as most everyone else.
So...... they are warning future opponents (Michigan State). How about previous opponents (Rutgers)?
Forde is all over the Schiano halftime interview. NJ.com blows.
Clearly, Rutgers seemed to think something was afoul in the Big House last month. Sources at two other schools that have played Michigan this year told SI they suspected the Wolverines of cheating to get their signals. Another Big Ten source, whose school has not played Michigan this year but has in the past, said, “With Michigan, I wouldn’t doubt it one bit.”
The NCAA has proved itself starkly incapable of enforcing many of its bylaws. If Michigan is found to have blatantly cheated by spying on other teams via impermissible scouting, then the Big Ten itself should take action—because the Wolverines would be directly impacting other league members on the field of competition. Conferences have become comfortable sidestepping rules enforcement and leaving it to the NCAA, but this is one instance where that would be an unacceptable path by the Big Ten.
Greg has come out and said the refs were what he was referencing in the half time interview. His entire demeanor changed after the BS hold on the long KM run. Like he knew we were going to have to beat the refs and Michigan to win and the refs were very interested in protecting Michigan's rank and potential playoff status.
It's gonna happen vs. OSU and PSU whether it's necessary or not as long as there only the one loss one deals the other this week on the table. If we played a two loss Wisconsin this week instead of when we did there's a damn good chance we get that one as well. We're never getting the benefit of the doubt against a B1G team with fewer than 2 losses. We need to be both dominant and perfect to win those and that's exceptionally hard.
Eastern Michigan is like 6 miles from U of Michigan's campus. They'll be the sacrificed goat that falls on the sword.
Michigan ends up with nothing
Schiano now gets penalized by conference for his “something isn’t right” comment about the refs
Schiano now gets penalized by conference for his “something isn’t right” comment about the refs
Yup, I can see that happening, no doubt, or the NCAA hits Prairie View with a huge penalty.
Strange "coincidence" that they made the playoffs in 2021.
From the article:
A low-level staffer with a military background has emerged as one of the linchpins in the NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, sources told ESPN on Thursday.
Connor Stalions, a football analyst with the Wolverines and a retired captain in the United States Marine Corps, is a person of interest in the investigation into whether No. 2-ranked Michigan violated an NCAA rule by scouting future opponents in person at games, sources said. The NCAA prohibited such scouting in 1994.
Sources said the NCAA enforcement staff's level of interest in Stalions is so significant it sought access to his computer as part of its investigation. Sources indicated that the process is underway, although it's uncertain what investigators will find.
Attempts by ESPN to reach Stalions were not returned. Michigan athletic director Warde Manuel did not return a request seeking comment.
A source told ESPN that the Wolverines have used an "elaborate" scouting system to steal signals from future opponents since at least 2021. With the ongoing NCAA investigation into Michigan recruiting and coach Jim Harbaugh potentially facing additional penalties there, this separate investigation could significantly increase his exposure to additional suspension.
Fortuna article is paywall but for the comments in the tweet.
From the tease for the article:
A Michigan staffer had requested a tour of another Big Ten staffer’s stadium a few years ago, saying that he was in charge of the Wolverines’ site visits for the following season. But he had requested to visit the venue on a game day, saying that it would help him better understand the logistics for when Michigan played there.
The recipient’s guard was up, and he informed the Michigan staffer that it would be illegal for him to visit then.
Was that email simply a naive mistake by a low-level staffer? Or is it a sign of just how far — and how long — Michigan would go to bend the rules under ninth-year coach Jim Harbaugh?
The Inside Zone spoke to a half-dozen current and former Big Ten coaches on Thursday after the news broke to get a better understanding of the severity of the situation.
Three of those coaches had already faced Michigan this season. Not one was surprised by the news. The No. 2 Wolverines are 7-0, have been favored by at least 17.5 points in every game and have won each contest by at least 24 points, so any advantage against the crop of competition so far would appear to be minimal, and unnecessary. But that doesn’t mean that it didn’t make a difference.
“We were told a while ago that that’s what they do,” said a coach who faced Michigan this season. “We actually heard they were sending people to games, so what we did is we literally changed everything. We went back to our old signals and things like that. I don’t know if people could see it in the game, but when we would come off the field we would send in the call with the substitution guy, so that we didn’t signal, because we knew that they did that.”
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Paywall article in the Athletic from a few years ago on signal stealing
They asked 20 coaches and they think 80-90% of teams do some form of it. But you see it more in college than the pros because of helmet communication and more huddling.
From the article:
“The level of espionage in this sport is insane, and he’s the best I’ve ever seen,” he said as he lowered his voice. “You go from giving up 12- and 14-yard chunks to plays of negative-2 yards. He’s amazing.”
He is a signal stealer.
Well, actually he’s a defensive assistant coach. He also has a rare talent that can — and on several occasions has — changed the course of a college football game. This isn’t a case in which it’s a guy who used intel he brought from a previous staff to burn an old employer. This is next-level stuff. Armed with his trusty binoculars, pen and a pad, he can deliver wondrous bits of info and become an offensive coordinator’s worst nightmare.
He agreed to share some of his secrets with The Athletic to provide insight on the practice of signal stealing in college football. We agreed to not disclose his identity or the details of the teams he’s worked for or faced.
“Their coach makes the call. Right as he makes the call, I said, ‘You’re getting boot.’ They booted right into an edge blitz, and we made a pick.”
That interception, a pick-six, was a game changer, and by the end of the day they had held a gifted quarterback and his offense to less than half their offensive production from a year earlier.
This season, the business of signal stealing could become more challenging. In May, the NCAA passed a rule limiting the number of people who can use headsets during a game to 20, including the 15 coaches (head coach, 10 assistants and four graduate assistants). The other five headsets will go to four players and one other staffer who is in a non-coaching role. “What a drastic change that may be for some schools,” said one Power 5 coordinator who suspects some programs used those additional headsets as part of their signal-stealing operation.
Coaches say they noticed a dramatic difference in staffs piled into the press boxes from around 2005, when there would usually be five total coaches upstairs, to around 2012, when some schools had 14 or 15 staffers in there. If you’re an off-the-field assistant trying to steal signals, “Now you’re gonna have to stand right beside the (defensive coordinator),” says a veteran signal stealer who has worked in multiple Power 5 conferences. “And you won’t get information clearly, fast enough, with confidence in front of 80,000 people to make a difference.”
Not that anyone thinks this will put an end to the sideline sleuthing.
In reality, coaches tend to remember the one or two instances when clever detective work led to a game-changing play. What is the cost-benefit of all the effort that goes into it? That probably depends on the quality of work of the person who is doing it.
“The thought of signal stealing is really, really cool, but the practicality of it isn’t all that helpful,” our signal stealer says. “It totally is a game within a game, but sometimes you do wonder if the juice is actually worth the squeeze.”
They asked 20 coaches and they think 80-90% of teams do some form of it. But you see it more in college than the pros because of helmet communication and more huddling.
From the article:
“The level of espionage in this sport is insane, and he’s the best I’ve ever seen,” he said as he lowered his voice. “You go from giving up 12- and 14-yard chunks to plays of negative-2 yards. He’s amazing.”
He is a signal stealer.
Well, actually he’s a defensive assistant coach. He also has a rare talent that can — and on several occasions has — changed the course of a college football game. This isn’t a case in which it’s a guy who used intel he brought from a previous staff to burn an old employer. This is next-level stuff. Armed with his trusty binoculars, pen and a pad, he can deliver wondrous bits of info and become an offensive coordinator’s worst nightmare.
He agreed to share some of his secrets with The Athletic to provide insight on the practice of signal stealing in college football. We agreed to not disclose his identity or the details of the teams he’s worked for or faced.
“Their coach makes the call. Right as he makes the call, I said, ‘You’re getting boot.’ They booted right into an edge blitz, and we made a pick.”
That interception, a pick-six, was a game changer, and by the end of the day they had held a gifted quarterback and his offense to less than half their offensive production from a year earlier.
This season, the business of signal stealing could become more challenging. In May, the NCAA passed a rule limiting the number of people who can use headsets during a game to 20, including the 15 coaches (head coach, 10 assistants and four graduate assistants). The other five headsets will go to four players and one other staffer who is in a non-coaching role. “What a drastic change that may be for some schools,” said one Power 5 coordinator who suspects some programs used those additional headsets as part of their signal-stealing operation.
Coaches say they noticed a dramatic difference in staffs piled into the press boxes from around 2005, when there would usually be five total coaches upstairs, to around 2012, when some schools had 14 or 15 staffers in there. If you’re an off-the-field assistant trying to steal signals, “Now you’re gonna have to stand right beside the (defensive coordinator),” says a veteran signal stealer who has worked in multiple Power 5 conferences. “And you won’t get information clearly, fast enough, with confidence in front of 80,000 people to make a difference.”
Not that anyone thinks this will put an end to the sideline sleuthing.
In reality, coaches tend to remember the one or two instances when clever detective work led to a game-changing play. What is the cost-benefit of all the effort that goes into it? That probably depends on the quality of work of the person who is doing it.
“The thought of signal stealing is really, really cool, but the practicality of it isn’t all that helpful,” our signal stealer says. “It totally is a game within a game, but sometimes you do wonder if the juice is actually worth the squeeze.”
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I dont believe it will....damaging reputation of a top well respected university trumps W's by a nutjob scandoulous coach who has generally brought nothing but scandal tonthe university since he arrived. The school would not have tried to soften the blow with an internal suspension
They vacate wins, but do not award victories to the losers. Let's keep our eye on the prize, beating Indiana this week to earn a bowl game.
I read the article and all I had going through my head was "do people really rent an AirBNB bedroom where the owner is sleeping on the couch in the living room? lol
Sources: U-M staffer eyed as center of scheme
A low-level staffer with a military background has emerged as one of the linchpins in the NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, sources told ESPN.
www.espn.com
Athletic article on why CFB hasn't moved to helmet communication like the NFL.
From the article:
“Most conversations have been in favor of adding helmet communication,” said Shaw, who sits on the NCAA’s football rules committee. “Most coaches are in favor of having this.”
For a long time, the concern was about the logistics and cost. The NFL is one organization of 32 teams owned by billionaires, while college football at the Football Bowl Subdivision level has 10 conferences and 131 teams. Implementing it has been considered too complicated or expensive.
Another concern among some SEC coaches wasn’t expressed publicly but has been suspected privately: Headsets would eliminate the ability to steal signals. The concept of stealing signals is an open secret in coaching, and some programs have elaborate operations. In a sport in which most rule changes benefit the offense, this could put the sides on the same level of an issue.
Told of that suspicion, David Shaw said it was comforting to hear someone admit that stealing signals exists. Bielema brought it up as well.
“There are certain places that put a premium on stealing signals, and that gets some people known as great play callers, but you can be a great play caller if you know what the other team is doing,” Shaw said.
One other issue is the helmet liability and warranty, something Steve Shaw has continually pointed to. The concern is if helmets are modified to fit the communication system, the liability or warranty could be voided, opening up potential issues in lawsuits for head injuries. The NFL has a players union and collective bargaining and a limit on the number of different helmets a team can use in a season. College football has no players union, and some schools use several different helmets in a season.
From the article:
“Most conversations have been in favor of adding helmet communication,” said Shaw, who sits on the NCAA’s football rules committee. “Most coaches are in favor of having this.”
For a long time, the concern was about the logistics and cost. The NFL is one organization of 32 teams owned by billionaires, while college football at the Football Bowl Subdivision level has 10 conferences and 131 teams. Implementing it has been considered too complicated or expensive.
Another concern among some SEC coaches wasn’t expressed publicly but has been suspected privately: Headsets would eliminate the ability to steal signals. The concept of stealing signals is an open secret in coaching, and some programs have elaborate operations. In a sport in which most rule changes benefit the offense, this could put the sides on the same level of an issue.
Told of that suspicion, David Shaw said it was comforting to hear someone admit that stealing signals exists. Bielema brought it up as well.
“There are certain places that put a premium on stealing signals, and that gets some people known as great play callers, but you can be a great play caller if you know what the other team is doing,” Shaw said.
One other issue is the helmet liability and warranty, something Steve Shaw has continually pointed to. The concern is if helmets are modified to fit the communication system, the liability or warranty could be voided, opening up potential issues in lawsuits for head injuries. The NFL has a players union and collective bargaining and a limit on the number of different helmets a team can use in a season. College football has no players union, and some schools use several different helmets in a season.
On one hand, my gut tells me nothing will come of this.
On the otherhand, the Big Ten isn't one to typically make the waters muddy around their prime teams like OSU and UM. So if they are digging into this like they are, it might be worse than just a dude in the press box trying to decipher signs.
On the otherhand, the Big Ten isn't one to typically make the waters muddy around their prime teams like OSU and UM. So if they are digging into this like they are, it might be worse than just a dude in the press box trying to decipher signs.
A dude in the pressbox trying to decipher signs during that specific game isn't the real issue and just a part of the game. No different than a batter in baseball that can read signs on their own.
The issue at hand is if Michigan is sending scouts to other games and or practices to steal signs there and bring them to Michigan Coaches so they are prepared before the game.
Here’s my guess, based on the story about the guy who is allegedly the center of the investigation.
Sign stealing isn’t against the rules, a lot of schools do it, but it is pretty hard to do it the “legal” way (figuring out what the signs mean) in game and in real time to give your team an edge).
So, if you are a guy trying to break into college football after being in the military, presenting yourself as some kind of analytical savant at this sign stealing would be a good way,
You don’t travel and just watch a lot of tv coverage of games and frame it like you can figure things out better than most people, when actually you have some friends/contacts take and feed you the game tape of other teams that is really the reason for your “genius”.
It’s plausible, then, that no one else at Michigan knew what was going on, because keeping everyone in the dark is part of the whole setup.
Ignorance shouldn’t protect Michigan, though, since he was an employee and by the NCAA’s previous use of “failure to monitor” and “lack of institutional control” as violations.
Sign stealing isn’t against the rules, a lot of schools do it, but it is pretty hard to do it the “legal” way (figuring out what the signs mean) in game and in real time to give your team an edge).
So, if you are a guy trying to break into college football after being in the military, presenting yourself as some kind of analytical savant at this sign stealing would be a good way,
You don’t travel and just watch a lot of tv coverage of games and frame it like you can figure things out better than most people, when actually you have some friends/contacts take and feed you the game tape of other teams that is really the reason for your “genius”.
It’s plausible, then, that no one else at Michigan knew what was going on, because keeping everyone in the dark is part of the whole setup.
Ignorance shouldn’t protect Michigan, though, since he was an employee and by the NCAA’s previous use of “failure to monitor” and “lack of institutional control” as violations.
I was all over it before forde!
Going by the time stamps , I was the first one in the country to piece it together ! The plum board legend grows !
Multiple Big Ten staff members identified Stalions as Michigan’s sign-stealing guru after the school was ensnared Thursday in an NCAA investigation. ESPN reported late Thursday night that the NCAA’s investigation into Michigan’s sign stealing is focusing on Stalions, who joined the Michigan staff in spring of 2022 as a recruiting analyst. Since his name emerged, Stalions has scrubbed his social media. He deleted his Instagram and Twitter accounts, which were active Thursday afternoon.
But well before the NCAA got involved, those within the league knew of Stalions and his sign-stealing expertise.
According to LinkedIn, Stalions served as a student assistant for the Navy footballprogram while in school there in 2013-2016 and was a graduate assistant on the staff. In his LinkenIn bio, Stalions described himself as being adept at “identifying the opponent's most likely course of action and most dangerous course of action” and “identifying and exploiting critical vulnerabilities and centers of gravity in the opponent scouting process.”
Strange "coincidence" that they made the playoffs in 2021.
From the article:
A low-level staffer with a military background has emerged as one of the linchpins in the NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, sources told ESPN on Thursday.
Connor Stalions, a football analyst with the Wolverines and a retired captain in the United States Marine Corps, is a person of interest in the investigation into whether No. 2-ranked Michigan violated an NCAA rule by scouting future opponents in person at games, sources said. The NCAA prohibited such scouting in 1994.
Sources said the NCAA enforcement staff's level of interest in Stalions is so significant it sought access to his computer as part of its investigation. Sources indicated that the process is underway, although it's uncertain what investigators will find.
Attempts by ESPN to reach Stalions were not returned. Michigan athletic director Warde Manuel did not return a request seeking comment.
A source told ESPN that the Wolverines have used an "elaborate" scouting system to steal signals from future opponents since at least 2021. With the ongoing NCAA investigation into Michigan recruiting and coach Jim Harbaugh potentially facing additional penalties there, this separate investigation could significantly increase his exposure to additional suspension.
Fortuna article is paywall but for the comments in the tweet.
From the tease for the article:
A Michigan staffer had requested a tour of another Big Ten staffer’s stadium a few years ago, saying that he was in charge of the Wolverines’ site visits for the following season. But he had requested to visit the venue on a game day, saying that it would help him better understand the logistics for when Michigan played there.
The recipient’s guard was up, and he informed the Michigan staffer that it would be illegal for him to visit then.
Was that email simply a naive mistake by a low-level staffer? Or is it a sign of just how far — and how long — Michigan would go to bend the rules under ninth-year coach Jim Harbaugh?
The Inside Zone spoke to a half-dozen current and former Big Ten coaches on Thursday after the news broke to get a better understanding of the severity of the situation.
Three of those coaches had already faced Michigan this season. Not one was surprised by the news. The No. 2 Wolverines are 7-0, have been favored by at least 17.5 points in every game and have won each contest by at least 24 points, so any advantage against the crop of competition so far would appear to be minimal, and unnecessary. But that doesn’t mean that it didn’t make a difference.
“We were told a while ago that that’s what they do,” said a coach who faced Michigan this season. “We actually heard they were sending people to games, so what we did is we literally changed everything. We went back to our old signals and things like that. I don’t know if people could see it in the game, but when we would come off the field we would send in the call with the substitution guy, so that we didn’t signal, because we knew that they did that.”
No doubt their water boy/girl is going to have to fall on his/her sword now.
Went from "that DB made a great read on that screen" to "that DB literally knew a screen was coming". No coincidence the first drive was our most successful when the plays are predetermined and they don't know what's coming.
Which was my point. If the BIG is taking it as seriously as they seem to be, this isn't just some basic sign stealing operation here.
Think about it. Simple sign stealing of trying to figure out a team’s signs are within the same game and making use of it before the end of the game is pretty damn hard.
On the other hand, you can use tapes of everything an opponent is doing for all of their games (every sign they gave before a play and what the resulting play actually was) to compile a database and using the data you can determine which signs matter, and what specific play will result from a sign before your game with the team even starts.
That’s quite an advantage.
If the head spy is literally on Michigan's sideline for games AND he did visit opponent games.. this "plausible deniability" angle is shot. Harbaugh can claim he did not know but then it all falls into that "lack of institutional control" bucket... which is dumped on his shoulders.
But how about this (possible) angle... it is the SEC or ESPN (their prime business partner) that is pushing this against Michigan to hopefully knock them out of the CFP picture and make room for another SEC team.
But how about this (possible) angle... it is the SEC or ESPN (their prime business partner) that is pushing this against Michigan to hopefully knock them out of the CFP picture and make room for another SEC team.
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