OT: Possible NCAA Investigation into Michigan Scouting Opponents.

[LETSGORU91_]

Joe was way worse . This isn’t close to the same thing.

Thank you for pointing that out as I didnt think it was as obvious as you say. Or maybe I was referring to Joe knew in Jim's case meaning that Jim knowing could easily be wiped from NCAA or conference penalties because if Joe knowing wasn't sanctioned as heavily as the crime was, then Jim knowing should easily be swept under the rug. Capisce?

Yeah, but he doesn’t approach legendary status just from that. Plum street was the first in the country to correlate schiano’s comments with the Michigan cheating scandal . The time stamps on this board prove it as the legend only grows!

It's explanations like your's above which restrict promotional cosideration to legendary status. Plus legends dont brand themselves. It's kinda silly if they do.

 

[Plum Street]

Thank you for pointing that out as I didnt think it was as obvious as you say. Or maybe I was referring to Joe knew in Jim's case meaning that Jim knowing could easily be wiped from NCAA or conference penalties because if Joe knowing wasn't sanctioned as heavily as the crime was, then Jim knowing should easily be swept under the rug. Capisce?

It's explanations like your's above which restrict promotional cosideration to legendary status. Plus legends dont brand themselves. It's kinda silly if they do.

You’re welcome and see your point there. Hopefully, this is not swept under the rug

People on this board are fans and most not interested in branding any other fans legends (because it is kinda stupid being a board legend just in accurate predictions on a subject that really doesn’t matter in the scheme of life) ….so I just do it for them

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

1. From what I've read the NCAA not allowing scouting in person at other team sites wasn't because of sign stealing but more because of costs. I got the impression it was considered an unfair advantage that some schools might have the budget to send scouts to other sites while some schools might not. So it's not even sign stealing that was at issue.

2&3. I think coaches do change signs but from what I've read it's not something where they want to add too much complexity for players. It's just another layer of something to learn. Even with 3 guys, some sign stealers can pick up who the live one is by actions they take when the signals are sent in. How vociferous the signal is, how far they step forward, etc.. or 3rd string qb not as likely to be the live one etc.. Taking signs from tv video is perfectly legal, it's just scouting opposing sites that isn't.

Just in relation to what I was saying about in person scouting being illegal because of costs not actual sign stealing.

When you see the allegation of "vast network" you wonder if it might have been fans or boosters at games sending video to Stalions or Michigan staff who then would decipher it themselves.

Here's the excerpt from an Athletic article:

The relevant NCAA rule is bylaw 11.6.1, which prohibits “off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season).” The rule was passed in 1994 as a cost-cutting measure designed to promote equity for programs that couldn’t afford to send scouts to other games.

The bylaw also prohibits an institution from “employing or paying the expenses of someone else, including professional scouting services, to scout the opponent,” according to the NCAA’s legislative database.

One source who was briefed on the allegation said Michigan is accused of using a “vast network” to steal opposing teams’ signs. If true, that would be a potential violation of the NCAA rule against in-person scouting and would be adjudicated through the NCAA infractions process.

The NCAA’s 2023 football rule book prohibits “any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel.” Using an electronic device to record signals would fall under the category of prohibited field equipment.


Article is paywall

Michigan investigation: Explaining CFB's sign-stealing rules, what's next for Harbaugh

What are the rules in college football as it pertains to signaling and scouting? Here's what you need to know.

theathletic.com

 

[RUInsanityToo]

Yeah, but he doesn’t approach legendary status just from that. Plum street was the first in the country to correlate schiano’s comments with the Michigan cheating scandal . The time stamps on this board prove it as the legend only grows!

Maybe alber did predict “hoke is a joke “ !!

Actually it doesn't appear you were. There is a tweet from Anthony Broome linking GS halftime interview to the Michigan sign stealing which was at about an hour before your post on TKR.

 

[pmvon]

Actually it doesn't appear you were. There is a tweet from Anthony Broome linking GS halftime interview to the Michigan sign stealing which was at about an hour before your post on TKR.

Oh snap. Plum Street denied!

 

[rureadyforsomefootball]

You’re welcome and see your point there. Hopefully, this is not swept under the rug

People on this board are fans and most not interested in branding any other fans legends (because it is kinda stupid being a board legend just in accurate predictions on a subject that really doesn’t matter in the scheme of life) ….so I just do it for them

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

The real brains behind the operation lol.

 

[NickRU714]

Just in relation to what I was saying about in person scouting being illegal because of costs not actual sign stealing.

When you see the allegation of "vast network" you wonder if it might have been fans or boosters at games sending video to Stalions or Michigan staff who then would decipher it themselves.

Here's the excerpt from an Athletic article:

The relevant NCAA rule is bylaw 11.6.1, which prohibits “off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season).” The rule was passed in 1994 as a cost-cutting measure designed to promote equity for programs that couldn’t afford to send scouts to other games.

The bylaw also prohibits an institution from “employing or paying the expenses of someone else, including professional scouting services, to scout the opponent,” according to the NCAA’s legislative database.

One source who was briefed on the allegation said Michigan is accused of using a “vast network” to steal opposing teams’ signs. If true, that would be a potential violation of the NCAA rule against in-person scouting and would be adjudicated through the NCAA infractions process.

The NCAA’s 2023 football rule book prohibits “any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel.” Using an electronic device to record signals would fall under the category of prohibited field equipment.


Article is paywall

Michigan investigation: Explaining CFB's sign-stealing rules, what's next for Harbaugh

What are the rules in college football as it pertains to signaling and scouting? Here's what you need to know.

theathletic.com

Super easy to get around.
Informally have people attend and record games then upload to YT or something.
Then the AD coincidentally has a staffer review the tape and crack the code.

Anyone attending OSU-PSU tonight and want to help out?

 

[yesrutgers01]

Super easy to get around.
Informally have people attend and record games then upload to YT or something.
Then the AD coincidentally has a staffer review the tape and crack the code.

Anyone attending OSU-PSU tonight and want to help out?

Until it is noticed that the game film always has a long shot of the signs and then directly the play as opposed to just being on the play on the field. And once your staffers are found to be watching these tapings- the institutional control clause comes into play.

They have it written where they can get you one way or another "if they want to"

 

[Njbound1]

 

[dollarbill_rivals328823]

An appropriate quote from the great philosopher Jesse "The Body" Ventura comes to mind. "Win if you can. Lose if you must. But ALWAYS cheat!" $$$$

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

Until it is noticed that the game film always has a long shot of the signs and then directly the play as opposed to just being on the play on the field. And once your staffers are found to be watching these tapings- the institutional control clause comes into play.

They have it written where they can get you one way or another "if they want to"

I think any tv replays or films are allowed. l read some teams will edit the game films they hand over to remove any thing they think will give stuff away.

You just can’t send people to other venues or use electronics to record etc…

Really, everyone should operate under the assumption it’s always happening and do whatever you can to negate it.

 

[Plum Street]

Actually it doesn't appear you were. There is a tweet from Anthony Broome linking GS halftime interview to the Michigan sign stealing which was at about an hour before your post on TKR.

Send the link ??
Even if true , the first on this board to make correlation !! Add to that the the other legendary posts ; the legend grows !

 

[RutgersNo1]

 

[mildone_rivals]

That, if true, is a fair amount of evidence of wrongdoing. And I can't see how the head coach can claim ignorance as a defense.

I'm wondering what sort of penalty the NCAA would assess here. Seems to me, with that sort of cheating, the NCAA and/or Big Ten should vacate UM's wins. But I don't really know how that could/would work.

 

[RutgersNo1]

That, if true, is a fair amount of evidence of wrongdoing. And I can't see how the head coach can claim ignorance as a defense.

I'm wondering what sort of penalty the NCAA would assess here. Seems to me, with that sort of cheating, the NCAA and/or Big Ten should vacate UM's wins. But I don't really know how that could/would work.

From UM board:
'The fact that he paid for the tickets in his own name with his own money leads me to believe this was a rouge effort. Because if this was an organized effort by Michigan there ain't a snowballs chance in hell that they are creating a paper trail that easy to find. Unless our staff and admin really are that dumb.'
LMAO.

 

[krup]

From UM board:
'The fact that he paid for the tickets in his own name with his own money leads me to believe this was a rouge effort. Because if this was an organized effort by Michigan there ain't a snowballs chance in hell that they are creating a paper trail that easy to find. Unless our staff and admin really are that dumb.'
LMAO.

Of course they would get penalized more if the entire coaching hierarchy knew about this, but him doing it as a loose cannon and no other coaches knowing doesn’t get UM off the hook either.

 

[Knight Shift]

From UM board:
'The fact that he paid for the tickets in his own name with his own money leads me to believe this was a rouge effort. Because if this was an organized effort by Michigan there ain't a snowballs chance in hell that they are creating a paper trail that easy to find. Unless our staff and admin really are that dumb.'
LMAO.

Rouge? How about putting lipstick on that "rogue" pig? (I know you copied/pasted-aren't Michigan grads supposed to be smart?).

Their staff are probably that dumb, and this guy was an ex-Navy officer? He could not have had an intermediary buy tickets for him?

 

[mildone_rivals]

Of course they would get penalized more if the entire coaching hierarchy knew about this, but him doing it as a loose cannon and no other coaches knowing doesn’t get UM off the hook either.

That's what I'm saying - doesn't matter if coach knew or not. He's in charge. It's his job to know.

And really, if the "rogue operative" is on the sideline in games saying "this is what they're about to do", how's that gonna go unnoticed by the rest of the coaching staff? And how're they not gonna say something to the head coach?

The investigation is ongoing, we don't have all the facts. But if this guy did what it looks like he did, I would think UM should get a pretty hefty penalty that affects the games where they are proven to have cheated.

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

From the ESPN article :

It's uncertain who was funding the purchases. Stallions makes $55,000 per year, according to the University of Michigan's website. But the operation included thousands of dollars in ticket sales and the cost of travel to the stadiums.

 

[RutgersNo1]

Rouge? How about putting lipstick on that "rogue" pig? (I know you copied/pasted-aren't Michigan grads supposed to be smart?).

Walmart Wolverines

 

[krup]

That's what I'm saying - doesn't matter if coach knew or not. He's in charge. It's his job to know.

And really, if the "rogue operative" is on the sideline in games saying "this is what they're about to do", how's that gonna go unnoticed by the rest of the coaching staff? And how're they not gonna say something to the head coach?

The investigation is ongoing, we don't have all the facts. But if this guy did what it looks like he did, I would think UM should get a pretty hefty penalty that affects the games where they are proven to have cheated.

I still believe it is possible he could have done this on his own, in an attempt to build his reputation as an analyst and boost his career in cfb.

The biggest question in that case, though, would be how he bought that many tickets on a $55,000 salary.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I still believe it is possible he could have done this on his own, in an attempt to build his reputation as an analyst and boost his career in cfb.

The biggest question in that case, though, would be how he bought that many tickets on a $55,000 salary.

Even if he did it on his own, what was the explanation to the coaching staff for using it. Doesn’t add up.

 

[kupuna133]

I still believe it is possible he could have done this on his own, in an attempt to build his reputation as an analyst and boost his career in cfb.

The biggest question in that case, though, would be how he bought that many tickets on a $55,000 salary.

The question you ask in the second paragraph nullifies the first paragraph. There is no way a person making 55k could afford to do the things he did without either reimbursement from the university, coaching staff or a benefactor. Both would be against NCAA rules.

 

[rurichdog]

I still believe it is possible he could have done this on his own, in an attempt to build his reputation as an analyst and boost his career in cfb.

The biggest question in that case, though, would be how he bought that many tickets on a $55,000 salary.

Sounds like the University of Michigan institution has a lack of control over its staffers.

 

[yesrutgers01]

I still believe it is possible he could have done this on his own, in an attempt to build his reputation as an analyst and boost his career in cfb.

The biggest question in that case, though, would be how he bought that many tickets on a $55,000 salary.

Even if he did it on his own, what was the explanation to the coaching staff for using it. Doesn’t add up.

That is why they have language that holds the HC accountable regardless with institutional control.

And with a 55k salary- NFW he purchased 10 away game tickets and travel per year for 3 years.
And then he goes to the OC/DC and tells them- a blue chicken held by the pink hat, if the pink hat is in the middle with a yellow car and a red sneaker on either side of it and two of them are lifting their left foot- and them not look at him, with a "how do you know this for every single play?...

 

[Njbound1]

“A Big Ten school tapped into its in-stadium surveillance video from a game earlier in the 2023 season, and the person in the seat bought by Stalions held his phone up and appeared to film the home team's sideline the entire game, sources told ESPN.”

 

[IMARUFAN]

Obviously, this guy didn't just do this on his own. Buying not 1, but 2 tickets (one on each side of the field) for games at Penn State, Ohio State, etc. costs a fortune.

So who was he doing this for? Offensive coordinator? Defensive? Head Coach? All of the above?

If Michigan was struggling, Harbaugh would be gone in short order. You can't say "I didn't know anything about it", when YOU would be the primary beneficiary of it.

But this is where being ranked #2 in the country comes in handy. Nothing will happen to Harbaugh.

 

[mildone_rivals]

I still believe it is possible he could have done this on his own, in an attempt to build his reputation as an analyst and boost his career in cfb.

The biggest question in that case, though, would be how he bought that many tickets on a $55,000 salary.

Even if he somehow paid for it all himself, which seems unlikely, he was apparently using that illegally obtained information in games. To use the info, he would've had to communicate to someone who communicated to the DC who communicated it to the players. Otherwise, what's the point, right?

So there's no way he acted entirely on his own, even if it was him who illegally obtained the info. And the people around him would've had to be wondering how he knew what he seemed to know.

 

[yesrutgers01]

This whole think is stinking in a big way. I actually do think they end up coming down hard on Michigan and JH.

 

[koleszar]

At first I thought this was no big deal as everyone does it to some extent. But now, this has gone straight into illegal territory and breaking NCAA rules.

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

 

[Rutgers Chris]

At first I thought this was no big deal as everyone does it to some extent. But now, this has now gone straight into illegal territory and breaking NCAA rules.

Immediately void all of their wins. 7-1 Rutgers has a nice ring to it.

 

[yesrutgers01]

At first I thought this was no big deal as everyone does it to some extent. But now, this has now gone straight into illegal territory and breaking NCAA rules.

At first- I thought it was going to be a thing that passes in the night. No one wants to talk about it because everyone does it.
Then details start coming out. And then I start thinking of JH camping out while recruiting and the many other things he has done.
And now it is gaining legs- B1G teams that are as high or higher than Michigan jumping on board- playoff jumping on board- security catching it
UT-OH

It seems impossible for the NCAA(playoff team complaints) or the B1G(OSU!) to ignore

Also seems weird that JH was on the verge of being fired about the same time this started and all of the sudden they own the B1G.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Immediately void all of their wins. 7-1 Rutgers has a nice ring to it.

To be honest- that should happen for all 3 years.

 

[krup]

Even if he did it on his own, what was the explanation to the coaching staff for using it. Doesn’t add up.

Did you read the articles when this broke last week?

He was viewed around Michigan as some kind of savant who could look at snippets of TV games opponents were in, and what went on early in the game, and have the signs figured out real time to tell the coaches.

What I am hypothesizing is that the coaches, or most of them, didn’t know about the taping because he was trying to portray himself as an analytics genius to build his career. That doesn’t explain how he afforded it, though.

 

[krup]

The question you ask in the second paragraph nullifies the first paragraph. There is no way a person making 55k could afford to do the things he did without either reimbursement from the university, coaching staff or a benefactor. Both would be against NCAA rules.

You are misunderstanding me. Nothing excuses Michigan here if a paid staffer was doing this, regardless of the details of how he was doing it.

I am just not ready to jump to the idea that everybody knew, because he wouldn’t be the first person who cut corners to build a reputation and move up in their career.

I have seen it happen with my own eyes in my working life. There have been some cases in the financial world that have involved billions of dollars.

 

[rutgersguy1_rivals]

Did you read the articles when this broke last week?

He was viewed around Michigan as some kind of savant who could look at snippets of TV games opponents were in, and what went on early in the game, and have the signs figured out real time to tell the coaches.

What I am hypothesizing is that the coaches, or most of them, didn’t know about the taping because he was trying to portray himself as an analytics genius to build his career. That doesn’t explain how he afforded it, though.

If not someone on the staff or admin, the other possibility is family. Supposedly some of the tickets were bought in family member names. No idea if they’re affluent or not.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Did you read the articles when this broke last week?

He was viewed around Michigan as some kind of savant who could look at snippets of TV games opponents were in, and what went on early in the game, and have the signs figured out real time to tell the coaches.

What I am hypothesizing is that the coaches, or most of them, didn’t know about the taping because he was trying to portray himself as an analytics genius to build his career. That doesn’t explain how he afforded it, though.

Some of the craftiest knowledgeable coaches in the world thought they found the "rain man" of scouting???