OT: Stock and Investment Thread

RU05

All-American
Jun 25, 2015
14,600
9,129
113
Regarding Verizon and AT&T, are they doing anything innovative? As CW says, innovative or get disrupted.
Aldo notes streaming above and there is 5g as well. Their problem, to an extent, is they are so big, and everyone already has some sort of cell service that they are not growing rev's in a significant way. (T-Mobile is the lone growth stock in the field).

But I wouldn't be getting into VZ or T because of significant upside. It would be a stability play.
 

Scarletnut

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2001
5,462
4,148
77
Aldo notes streaming above and there is 5g as well. Their problem, to an extent, is they are so big, and everyone already has some sort of cell service that they are not growing rev's in a significant way. (T-Mobile is the lone growth stock in the field).

But I wouldn't be getting into VZ or T because of significant upside. It would be a stability play.
Look into FTF and HEQ, both closed end funds with 10% dividends that are very stable. They both sell at a discount to NAV as an added bonus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RU05

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
18,970
12,164
82
What is sad? You're obviously a student of history, based on your posts. Things change. Adapt or die is a phrase I've told everyone who has worked for me.

History shows countless examples of industries who fail to adapt to change and die. Crypto... is. Not. Going. Away. It's at a point now where not having a small % of your portfolio in crypto is unwise
Funny, that’s how we sold CDOs and synthetic CDOs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bob-loblaw

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,879
18,868
113
Aldo notes streaming above and there is 5g as well. Their problem, to an extent, is they are so big, and everyone already has some sort of cell service that they are not growing rev's in a significant way. (T-Mobile is the lone growth stock in the field).

But I wouldn't be getting into VZ or T because of significant upside. It would be a stability play.
I'm meh on 5g. Moving to 4g didn't seem like a big deal. If you are looking for stability, check out VIG or another dividend focused ETFs
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,879
18,868
113
Crypto marketing dipping. Cardona and Polkadot down almost 20%. BTC below 47k and ETH approaching the 1700 level.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
Aldo notes streaming above and there is 5g as well. Their problem, to an extent, is they are so big, and everyone already has some sort of cell service that they are not growing rev's in a significant way. (T-Mobile is the lone growth stock in the field).

But I wouldn't be getting into VZ or T because of significant upside. It would be a stability play.
Agree - VZ and T are mainly defensive or rotation plays but may have upside. TMO has gotten too expensive IMO. T is probably the cheapest and with the dividend secure isn’t a bad place to sit tight.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RU05

Frida's Boss

All-American
Oct 10, 2005
10,952
7,737
0
What is sad? You're obviously a student of history, based on your posts. Things change. Adapt or die is a phrase I've told everyone who has worked for me.

History shows countless examples of industries who fail to adapt to change and die. Crypto... is. Not. Going. Away. It's at a point now where not having a small % of your portfolio in crypto is unwise

Crypto is not an industry. In this thread, some have compared its potential societal and commercial impacts to the advent of the PC and the internet. I find those statements to be ridiculous. The PC changed how we work. It greatly improved our ability to process and compute information, and granted the first mass access to the internet which has had profound changes to everything we do.

Crypto does ....what exactly? Do enthusiasts think crypto will supplant the currencies issued by industrial leading nations? Do they think it will capture a substantial portion of global transactions? Both assertions are highly dubious.

It’s not at all obvious that it will remain, as it’s questionable whether provides either a stable medium of exchange or a reliable store of value. And nothing ends up in an investment portfolio that has no intrinsic value. Purchasing crypto of any kind is a bet, and I’m not even sure the purchasers of crypto know what they are betting on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redking and mdk02

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
18,970
12,164
82
Read article about Musk pushing for Carbon Tax. He needs to find something to offset declining margins.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
Read article about Musk pushing for Carbon Tax. He needs to find something to offset declining margins.
Musk is both a genius and a snake-oil salesman. Hard to believe that regulators have not made a peep over his well-orchestrated BTC pump. Like I said in another post, his dogecoin tweet was only a test run to see how much he could move the needle. Then did the same with #bitcoin because if BTC had dropped and Tesla lost money it would have been a major PR disaster for both Tesla and cryptocurrency. Setting aside Tesla, think about it from a cryptocurrency POV - if the stock market’s darling lost $500M in a matter of weeks on BTC it would have proven that volatility is too great for legit companies to rely on it. It’s times like this that I’m starting to think the guys wearing tin-foil hats know what they are doing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redking

Scarletnut

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2001
5,462
4,148
77
Musk is both a genius and a snake-oil salesman. Hard to believe that regulators have not made a peep over his well-orchestrated BTC pump. Like I said in another post, his dogecoin tweet was only a test run to see how much he could move the needle. Then did the same with #bitcoin because if BTC had dropped and Tesla lost money it would have been a major PR disaster for both Tesla and cryptocurrency. Setting aside Tesla, think about it from a cryptocurrency POV - if the stock market’s darling lost $500M in a matter of weeks on BTC it would have proven that volatility is too great for legit companies to rely on it. It’s times like this that I’m starting to think the guys wearing tin-foil hats know what they are doing.
Though your argument sounds logical, I don't think it holds water. Of all the institutions that have decided to invest in bitcoin, the one that is most impressive to me is MassMutual. They are one of the most, if not the most, conservative investment/insurance companies in the world. They are under strict regulations under our insurance laws for capitol holdings. If they saw fit to invest in bitcoin, that's a huge green light.
 
  • Like
Reactions: T2Kplus20

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,879
18,868
113
Though your argument sounds logical, I don't think it holds water. Of all the institutions that have decided to invest in bitcoin, the one that is most impressive to me is MassMutual. They are one of the most, if not the most, conservative investment/insurance companies in the world. They are under strict regulations under our insurance laws for capitol holdings. If they saw fit to invest in bitcoin, that's a huge green light.
+1
MM may be the true game changer, not Tesla/Elon.
 

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
18,970
12,164
82
Though your argument sounds logical, I don't think it holds water. Of all the institutions that have decided to invest in bitcoin, the one that is most impressive to me is MassMutual. They are one of the most, if not the most, conservative investment/insurance companies in the world. They are under strict regulations under our insurance laws for capitol holdings. If they saw fit to invest in bitcoin, that's a huge green light.
Except all these insurance companies manage separate accounts. I see insurance companies chase yield all the time. Especially for separate accounts.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
Though your argument sounds logical, I don't think it holds water. Of all the institutions that have decided to invest in bitcoin, the one that is most impressive to me is MassMutual. They are one of the most, if not the most, conservative investment/insurance companies in the world. They are under strict regulations under our insurance laws for capitol holdings. If they saw fit to invest in bitcoin, that's a huge green light.
I don’t disagree - may main point is that MM wouldn’t put out a tweet pumping BTC.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
I don’t disagree - may main point is that MM wouldn’t put out a tweet pumping BTC.
If Apple bought a stake in Pinterest and Tim Cook randomly tweeted #pinterest two weeks before the stake is disclosed in Apple’s SEC filing everyone would be up in arms.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
No they didn't put out a tweet. But their investment did make headlines. Just as impactful IMO.
But that’s the point - Musk, CEO of Tesla, put out a tweet before the Tesla announcement so by the time they actually made the announcement Tesla made $500M.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ScarletNut

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
18,970
12,164
82
But that’s the point - Musk, CEO of Tesla, put out a tweet before the Tesla announcement so by the time they actually made the announcement Tesla made $500M.
Trust me, Musk and TSLA’s counsel is busy fielding calls from the SEC.
 

bob-loblaw

Senior
Jan 23, 2011
2,033
852
0
Crypto is not an industry. In this thread, some have compared its potential societal and commercial impacts to the advent of the PC and the internet. I find those statements to be ridiculous. The PC changed how we work. It greatly improved our ability to process and compute information, and granted the first mass access to the internet which has had profound changes to everything we do.

Crypto does ....what exactly? Do enthusiasts think crypto will supplant the currencies issued by industrial leading nations? Do they think it will capture a substantial portion of global transactions? Both assertions are highly dubious.

It’s not at all obvious that it will remain, as it’s questionable whether provides either a stable medium of exchange or a reliable store of value. And nothing ends up in an investment portfolio that has no intrinsic value. Purchasing crypto of any kind is a bet, and I’m not even sure the purchasers of crypto know what they are betting on.

How are they ridiculous? (rhetorical)

Can you send (or ship) me $100,000 worth of gold in 20 minutes? Will it cost less than $5 to send (or ship) to me? No.

Will it supplant currencies? I honestly dont know. Will there be a global crypto currency? Yes.

Why is this dubious? For example, BTC transactions are all validated. It's not dubious.

It's extremely obvious it will remain. And truthfully, both instances you sited are viable. BTC as a store of value and other altcoins as utilities for exchange.

I value your input on stocks and the market. Just as you wont sway towards crypto, there's zero I can say to sway you towards crypto. So rather then never ending banter on this, I'll only engage on stock talk going forward.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
How are they ridiculous? (rhetorical)

Can you send (or ship) me $100,000 worth of gold in 20 minutes? Will it cost less than $5 to send (or ship) to me? No.

Will it supplant currencies? I honestly dont know. Will there be a global crypto currency? Yes.

Why is this dubious? For example, BTC transactions are all validated. It's not dubious.

It's extremely obvious it will remain. And truthfully, both instances you sited are viable. BTC as a store of value and other altcoins as utilities for exchange.

I value your input on stocks and the market. Just as you wont sway towards crypto, there's zero I can say to sway you towards crypto. So rather then never ending banter on this, I'll only engage on stock talk going forward.
I’m convinced that blockchain and digital assets will play a huge role in our future. However, isn’t it a problem when nobody knows who actually created BTC and there are thousands of shitcoins and altcoin scams? It would not surprise me if it’s revealed that BTC and cryptocurrency was part of some elaborate fraud perpetrated by China as payback for the financial crises where Wall Street and its derivatives and mortgage backed securities brought the world to its knees.

 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,879
18,868
113
However, isn’t it a problem when nobody knows who actually created BTC and there are thousands of shitcoins and altcoin scams?
No.

Regarding BTC, the beauty is that nobody owns it. It is decentralized. That's not just a fancy word, it has real meaning. There is no conspiracy with BTC because thousands and thousands of people across the world would have to be in on it.

Stop jumping to conspiracies to fill the holes in your understanding of cryptos.
 

Frida's Boss

All-American
Oct 10, 2005
10,952
7,737
0
How are they ridiculous? (rhetorical)

Can you send (or ship) me $100,000 worth of gold in 20 minutes? Will it cost less than $5 to send (or ship) to me? No.

Will it supplant currencies? I honestly dont know. Will there be a global crypto currency? Yes.

Why is this dubious? For example, BTC transactions are all validated. It's not dubious.

It's extremely obvious it will remain. And truthfully, both instances you sited are viable. BTC as a store of value and other altcoins as utilities for exchange.

I value your input on stocks and the market. Just as you wont sway towards crypto, there's zero I can say to sway you towards crypto. So rather then never ending banter on this, I'll only engage on stock talk going forward.

You didn’t answer the questions posed in my post. Instead, you asked different questions and answered them.

Ease of transfer has historically only justified a gold standard where currency was redeemable for gold (or, at least during the Breton Woods standard, foreign central banks could redeem dollars for gold). The fact that you can share bitcoin more quickly just means you can send something via the internet, quickly, and does not provide any justification why it has any value.

Any item that experiences the price volatility exhibited by bitcoin can’t be considered a reliable store of value or appropriate medium of exchange, it’s like saying I’ll pay you in shares of GME. How much money are you delivering to me?
Impossible to say given the volatility.

The fact that bitcoin trades are recorded means..,,they are recorded. It does not convey any underlying value. I can sell you shares in a bankrupt company that are worth $0. That trade will be recorded. Doesn’t mean you’ve purchased anything of value. So, recording of activity doesn’t really provide any compelling evidence, either.

You wind up by saying that it’s obvious it will remain and satisfy both functions I asked about. Saying it’s obvious is not evidence or an arguement. It’s saying it will because I believe it will. And maybe that’s the only thing enthusiasts can argue.

The very best investors seek out the thesis behind those on the opposite side of the trade. They want to understand the points raised to see if they are valid, or not.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
No.

Regarding BTC, the beauty is that nobody owns it. It is decentralized. That's not just a fancy word, it has real meaning. There is no conspiracy with BTC because thousands and thousands of people across the world would have to be in on it.

Stop jumping to conspiracies to fill the holes in your understanding of cryptos.
I’m not suggesting the conspiracy theories are true and, to some extent, I’m simply making thought provoking observations based on fact (i.e., nobody knows who Satoshi is and 3/4 of mining operations are in China and Russia). I suspect that if the theory of quantum mechanics was published on the Internet with out attribution there would be a lot of skeptics. However, the existence of Stephen Hawking (and others) is what helped it achieve acceptance. There isn’t some British expert resembling an actor on YouTube and Twitter named “Guy the quantum guy” explaining atoms and subatomic particles, while selling t-shirts and click-thru ads. Blockchain and digital assets have a future. Acceptance of BTC on a global scale remains to be seen. Right now, the only “acceptance” I’ve seen from the likes of Musk to MassMutual has nothing to do with the utility of cryptocurrency - it has everything to do with making money. FOMO is driving BTC right now and it’s driving Wall Street nuts that they are leaving easy money on the table.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
No.

Regarding BTC, the beauty is that nobody owns it. It is decentralized. That's not just a fancy word, it has real meaning. There is no conspiracy with BTC because thousands and thousands of people across the world would have to be in on it.

Stop jumping to conspiracies to fill the holes in your understanding of cryptos.
And, to address “There is no conspiracy with BTC because thousands and thousands of people across the world would have to be in on it” - do you mean like GameStop? Take out “BTC” in your statement and insert “GME”. There were thousands and thousands of people in on the GameStop and AMC madness and many of them had no clue what they were actually buying. And, it was all started by a guy known as “DeepF—kingValue” that became popular on YouTube and Reddit. People bought the GME and AMC stocks and options because they thought it was going to the moon and they would all get rich (except for those that didn’t get out in time). It was all about making a quick buck.
 

mdk02

Heisman
Aug 18, 2011
26,354
18,662
113
And, to address “There is no conspiracy with BTC because thousands and thousands of people across the world would have to be in on it” - do you mean like GameStop? Take out “BTC” in your statement and insert “GME”. There were thousands and thousands of people in on the GameStop and AMC madness and many of them had no clue what they were actually buying. And, it was all started by a guy known as “DeepF—kingValue” that became popular on YouTube and Reddit. People bought the GME and AMC stocks and options because they thought it was going to the moon and they would all get rich (except for those that didn’t get out in time). It was all about making a quick buck.

Funny, when the stop-loss got triggered on my MJ holding (200 shares) it wasn't the usual sale of 2 100 share lots or 1 200 share lot. It was 2 50s, some of 10s, some 5s and even a 1. It looked to me like it was a bunch of previous GME odd lot traders who wouldn't be trading if there was a commission were on the other side. I don't know how long this is going to last, but something to keep in mind.
 

Scarletnut

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2001
5,462
4,148
77
@Frida's Boss @RUAldo ....Question for you guys:
What if there was only a finite amount of gold? Wouldn’t the price be volatile and much higher? The fact that you can put your hands on gold but not on bitcoin would then be the only difference. There are quite a few products/investments that are considered legitimate that you can’t physically put your hands on. Gold value originated in a much more unsophisticated time. The times have changed, the product has a track record of survival, albeit much less than physical gold. So many concepts in our world have changed from the time bitcoin originated. I think in all due respect, some look at bitcoin with blinders on.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,879
18,868
113
And, to address “There is no conspiracy with BTC because thousands and thousands of people across the world would have to be in on it” - do you mean like GameStop? Take out “BTC” in your statement and insert “GME”. There were thousands and thousands of people in on the GameStop and AMC madness and many of them had no clue what they were actually buying. And, it was all started by a guy known as “DeepF—kingValue” that became popular on YouTube and Reddit. People bought the GME and AMC stocks and options because they thought it was going to the moon and they would all get rich (except for those that didn’t get out in time). It was all about making a quick buck.
GME wasn't a conspiracy, what was happening was public and well known. Don't understand this point.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,879
18,868
113
@Frida's Boss @RUAldo ....Question for you guys:
What if there was only a finite amount of gold? Wouldn’t the price be volatile and much higher? The fact that you can put your hands on gold but not on bitcoin would then be the only difference. There are quite a few products/investments that are considered legitimate that you can’t physically put your hands on. Gold value originated in a much more unsophisticated time. The times have changed, the product has a track record of survival, albeit much less than physical gold. So many concepts in our world have changed from the time bitcoin originated. I think in all due respect, some look at bitcoin with blinders on.
Some folks just don't "get it". Unlike us! LOL.
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
@Frida's Boss @RUAldo ....Question for you guys:
What if there was only a finite amount of gold? Wouldn’t the price be volatile and much higher? The fact that you can put your hands on gold but not on bitcoin would then be the only difference. There are quite a few products/investments that are considered legitimate that you can’t physically put your hands on. Gold value originated in a much more unsophisticated time. The times have changed, the product has a track record of survival, albeit much less than physical gold. So many concepts in our world have changed from the time bitcoin originated. I think in all due respect, some look at bitcoin with blinders on.
For the record, I’m not anti-BTC. I’ve been trying to educate myself for years but haven’t made any moves mainly because I was making plenty of money on other investments. But, with what appears to be a frothy market plus FOMO I’m evaluating BTC as my next potential play. Re: gold, IMO gold’s biggest advantage is that it has uses beyond an investment or store of value - jewelry, electronics, etc. And, this may sound silly, but seems precious metals trigger some innate response in humans that makes us think it’s valuable. Plus, gold wasn’t created by some mystery person unless we want to get into a religious discussion. Regardless, it would be great if I could attend a BTC lecture with Satoshi Nakamoto or watch some interviews with him. But I can’t because nobody apparently knows who “Satoshi Nakamoto” is. In a day and age when we have every technological advantage and supposedly you can trace everything on the internet, we can solve crimes that occurred 30 years ago, trace our DNA to ancestors from hundreds of years ago, etc., nobody can figure out who Satoshi Nakamoto actually is? Yes that’s right - nobody knows the guy that created an asset class that could become a global currency and forever change our financial system? Think of how crazy this sounds. Then, I Google “Bitcoin” and I’m bombarded with videos on YouTube from “Guy the crypto guy”, Cameron Winklevoss, and a bunch of other people that have been pushing BTC for years and stand to make millions or billions. It’s also bizarre that Mr. Nakamoto wouldn’t want to come forward and explain his ingenious idea that may forever change the world’s financial model. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure he’s just a modest guy or a monk that wants to be left alone.
 

RUDead

All-Conference
Sep 20, 2017
3,655
3,840
0
For the record, I’m not anti-BTC. I’ve been trying to educate myself for years but haven’t made any moves mainly because I was making plenty of money on other investments. But, with what appears to be a frothy market plus FOMO I’m evaluating BTC as my next potential play. Re: gold, IMO gold’s biggest advantage is that it has uses beyond an investment or store of value - jewelry, electronics, etc. And, this may sound silly, but seems precious metals trigger some innate response in humans that makes us think it’s valuable. Plus, gold wasn’t created by some mystery person unless we want to get into a religious discussion. Regardless, it would be great if I could attend a BTC lecture with Satoshi Nakamoto or watch some interviews with him. But I can’t because nobody apparently knows who “Satoshi Nakamoto” is. In a day and age when we have every technological advantage and supposedly you can trace everything on the internet, we can solve crimes that occurred 30 years ago, trace our DNA to ancestors from hundreds of years ago, etc., nobody can figure out who Satoshi Nakamoto actually is? Yes that’s right - nobody knows the guy that created an asset class that could become a global currency and forever change our financial system? Think of how crazy this sounds. Then, I Google “Bitcoin” and I’m bombarded with videos on YouTube from “Guy the crypto guy”, Cameron Winklevoss, and a bunch of other people that have been pushing BTC for years and stand to make millions or billions. It’s also bizarre that Mr. Nakamoto wouldn’t want to come forward and explain his ingenious idea that may forever change the world’s financial model. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure he’s just a modest guy or a monk that wants to be left alone.

Trust the process.
 
  • Like
Reactions: T2Kplus20

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
GME wasn't a conspiracy, what was happening was public and well known. Don't understand this point.
Of course GME was a conspiracy - the only question is whether it broke any laws (probably not based on my understanding of the SEC rules/regs). I don’t have any issue with it other than it’s probably not a good thing for the health of the market and there are certainly more losers than winners especially when you hear that plenty of hedge funds jumped in on the action.
 

mdk02

Heisman
Aug 18, 2011
26,354
18,662
113
@Frida's Boss @RUAldo ....Question for you guys:
What if there was only a finite amount of gold? Wouldn’t the price be volatile and much higher? The fact that you can put your hands on gold but not on bitcoin would then be the only difference. There are quite a few products/investments that are considered legitimate that you can’t physically put your hands on. Gold value originated in a much more unsophisticated time. The times have changed, the product has a track record of survival, albeit much less than physical gold. So many concepts in our world have changed from the time bitcoin originated. I think in all due respect, some look at bitcoin with blinders on.

Aren't bitcoins still being mined? And what are the industrial uses for bitcoins? Track record for survival? 10 years as opposed to 30 centuries?
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,508
3,184
113
Market mania, BTC boom, SPAC attack, etc. are all being driven by the record number of retail traders. The numbers are simply astounding. I was always taught to follow the “smart money” (i.e., institutional money). Now, seems there is a lot of institutional money following the retail traders creating a potential tsunami. The only question is when it crashes although I’m not predicting a massive correction unless the retail traders get spooked. I’m always long the market based on the theory that people far richer and more powerful than me have much more to lose, and therefore, they’ll never let it happen.
 

Scarletnut

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2001
5,462
4,148
77
Aren't bitcoins still being mined? And what are the industrial uses for bitcoins? Track record for survival? 10 years as opposed to 30 centuries?
Bitcoin "blocks" are mined and about every 10 minutes a block is solved and rewarded with bitcoin. Approximately every 4 years "blocks" that are mined (meaning solving complicated mathematical problems requiring farms of computers) are halved, meaning the bitcoin rewards are cut in half. The last halving was in May 2020, reducing the reward from 12.5 bitcoins to 6.25. The total amount ends when 21 million bitcoins are mined. That number is currently at 18 million with estimates that only about 4 million are actually in circulation, with the bulk being held (by HODLers) and certain amount that has been lost due lost password keys. Historically, bitcoins have surged in the 12-18 months after this halving, which would take us to the end of this year. The next halving is estimated to occur in 2024.