We need to come to grips with our offense

[FreeDawg]

Lets looks at statistical data of our offenses and defenses:

Total Offense
09- 69th
10- 42nd
11- 84th
12- 80th

Offense avg= 68.75 (bottom half)

Total Defense
09- 58th
10- 49th
11- 35th
12- 54th

Defense avg= 49 (top half)


My 2 cents:
All year long all Ive heard is how bad our defense was and how Wilson had to go. He's gone and many are happy. I'm constantly in awe of how our fans give the offense a pass. MSU's offense the last 2 years has been 100% the problem. Coach34 had a post showing how there has been an offensive output trend that has been increasing the last few years. The reality is that as a whole defensive numbers are down. We have to improve on offense. Mullen's offenses average to be a bottom half group over his 4 years. That is unacceptable. We have been a bottom third unit the last 2 years. That is unconscionable. Did Wilson forget how to coach in 1 year or did our rushing attack go from 38th in '11 to 84th in 12' leaving our D high and dry? Coincidence I think not. Mullen and staff has to find a way to run the ball without a running QB next year our we will struggle on D again. Our whole issue is if Les and Dan are capable of putting TR in situations that lead to success and that hinges on an effective running attack.


**I use total offense and defense stats instead of points b/c its a better reflection of your units control on a game. Fluky things happen in points from time to time but not on season averages of output**

http://www.cfbstats.com/

 

[Moonlight Graham]

I'll give you that. The offense was pretty bad this year but a big reason the offensive stats are so bad is because the defense was on the field so long with their bend but don't break scheme.

Look at the offense the two years that Wilson was DC compared to when Diaz was here. I think the correlation there is pretty telling.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Give them a pass? You stats freaks need to get over yourself. I've obviously been watching this God-forsaken indian-cursed program longer than some of you could beat your meat. If you DID NOT enjoy our offense last year, then you aren't a true State fan.

And if you are seriously going to try and use stats for an argument that MSU's defense wasn't the problem, then you just proved that stats are for half-brains.

 

[Coach34]

You, me, and Engie all agree

We've got alot of problems to fix on offense. Mullen needs to hold the offense to the same standard he holds the defense

 

[karlchilders.sixpack]

While I support TR

I think on Offense, MSU must have a very mobile QB year in and year out to be successful.

That speaks for itself.

 

[Koldfire]

I totally agree. I like Coach Mullen an I think he has been good for our program. But for the life of me, I can't figure out why so many fail to acknowledge that we have serious issues with our offense. One would think that with Mullen's background, offense would be the strong point of the team. The best and quickest way to build a team is to create a good offensive (see Petrino). I think many ignore the fact that our offense has been less than stellar because they know that it's a direct reflection of Mullen. And many, myself included, wants him to be successful. But at some point, he has to give the kind of offensive production that we expected when he was hired. Sure it's better than Croom's; but that can no longer be the gauge.

 

[natchezdawg]

It's just the nature if the Mississippi State fan's mentality. We equate a stingy defense with some of the best teams in school history. 2010, 2007, 1999, 1998 all had salty defenses. We've seen both sides of the coin. To me, not being able to stop anybody is 10 times more frustrating than not being able to move the ball. I'm sure an Oregon or West Virginia fan would see it differently. No doubt our offense laid an egg when it counted in some big games, but they were statistically better than most offenses we have had in, well, forever.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

OK, I'll acknowledge that there is plenty of room for improvement....

...but compared to past MSU teams, we look like Spurrier's fun'n'gun offenses out there last year, and it was fun to watch. And if you look closely, the games we got put out of quickly, it was because our defense put us in a hole. Our offense hurt us against Ole Miss and Northwestern, where many chances were squandered. It may not appear that way now, but we probably could have put Ole Miss away early had we capitalized on their turnovers.

And just so I have this straight, you guys are advocating that we bench a SENIOR QB, who's been shattering passing records at MSU all year, in favor of a SOPHOMORE unproven QB.....just because of some misplace sense that we need a running QB to be successful. Got it.

The best and quickest way to build a team is to create a good offensive

Actually no, the best and quickest way to build a team is get JUCO talent in there, preferably a QB if you don't have one, then recruit your *** off. Petrino lucked into Ryan Mallett.

 

[Todd4State]

I think your last sentence is more applicable. Croom was so bad, an offense that ranks thirty spots higher is going to look a LOT better than what we were used to watching. Also, Tyler had a good year and set some records- that to many fans translates into the offense being "good", acceptable, whatever word you want to use. If we're honest with ourselves- Tyler is a good player and we made a LOT of plays because of him. But he needs help from the coaches in the form of play calling and personnel use- the running backs in particular.

It's still very debatable how much of the offense Dan calls, but I would imagine that Les calls the majority of the plays. I think Dan calling the plays would be a better adjustment and then either getting rid of Les or just letting Les coach QB's would make more sense.

If we keep Les, I would like an explanation from Dan to be honest with you. I think we could be really good next year with a better play caller. I think if we keep Les, we'll likely see more of the same.

 

[engie]

Been through all this in great detail before. A bunch of people are going to argue with you -- and they will define themselves when they do.

It's "tunnelvisioned MSU fan syndrome" that prevents people from seeing that the offense is and has been the bigger overall problem for us. People that watch MSU and almost no other football THINK they see a very good offense -- because it's better than 99% of what they've seen in their MSU-watching history(they don't pay attention to national trends -- or generally diversify their watching portfolio). What they don't realize is that relative to the rest of the country, the offense is ahead of where it was under Croom -- but still WAY behind overall. The same thing effects their view on defense in an equal and opposite manner. They HAVE seen some nationally elite defenses at MSU -- and many, many very good defenses. That sets the defensive expectation a whole lot higher. Fairly? Probably not. But I LIKE the defensive expectation -- and wish our offensive expectation was just as high.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

I think Dan calling the plays would be a better adjustment and then either getting rid of Les or just letting Les coach QB's would make more sense.

If we keep Les, I would like an explanation from Dan to be honest with you. I think we could be really good next year with a better play caller. I think if we keep Les, we'll likely see more of the same.

This has already happened there, sport.

Why don't you call up Dan and ask him for that explanation.

 

[Coach34]

Give them a pass? You stats freaks need to get over yourself. I've obviously been watching this God-forsaken indian-cursed program longer than some of you could beat your meat. If you DID NOT enjoy our offense last year, then you aren't a true State fan.

And if you are seriously going to try and use stats for an argument that MSU's defense wasn't the problem, then you just proved that stats are for half-brains.

Everybody else comes with proof- you just spout retarded ********

An injury-riddled OL in 2011 that played 2 R-Fr linemen with both Russell and Relf getting hurt also was 84th in the nation. A healthy TR and a healthy OL in 2012 was 80th

2010 and 2012 are almost identical- except that we traded rushing TD's for passing TD's- and 2010 was much better on 3rd down

The offense is struggling Goat- 80th in the nation. You cant defend that

 

[Railin Jemmye]

I never said it wasn't, peach boy. READ and you might understand. The offense could use improvement, but it is by no means the unit that was holding MSU football back this past year. AND, it's only going to improve next year and the years after that.

You boys need to spend your estrogen fueled time worrying about something that really matters, like how we end up on national signing day.

 

[FreeDawg]

but they were statistically better than most offenses we have had in, well, forever.

Mullen's last 2 offenses averaged 370 ypg. Croom's last 2 averaged 287 ypg. There is no way in hell Mullen in year 3 & 4 should be 83 ypg better than Croom. That is a sobering stat. We need an offensive explosion next year. To close the gap and "take the next step" it is very simple: we need more offense. We aren't gonna out defense Bama or LSU, but we may could outscore them on a given Saturday if we perform how past Mullen offenses have

 

[Todd4State]

This has already happened there, sport.

Why don't you call up Dan and ask him for that explanation.

If I could had his number, I would have no problem doing that.

I just thought that maybe everyone else would like to hear his explanation since there are a few threads about it. You know, since we have more than one MSU football fan.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Why then, did we fire the DEFENSIVE coordinator.

There is nothing wrong with the offensive schemes we are using. Playcalling, yes, sometimes it's frustrating. But the issue is talent and experience. Improving that is the only way our offense will get better.

 

[FreeDawg]

Well put engie and Todd. You guys nailed it

 

[Coach34]

Why then, did we fire the DEFENSIVE coordinator..

Because the head coach is our OFFENSIVE coordinator and he isnt going to fire himself

 

[dawgphd]

I thought our offense was slow.
Slow play calling. Slow huddling. Slow breaking huddle. Slow play developing. Slow route running. Etc. Just slow.
I'm not advocating 100% Oregon style (although t would be nice)but we need a sense of urgency on offense.
The fact that Saban hates a fast pace style reassures me it is effective. It's a neutralizer. We are not likely going to line up and out athlete the big boys of the league so lets use whatever tactic we can to our advantage. Pace of play is one of those things.

 

[FreeDawg]

Why then, did we fire the DEFENSIVE coordinator.

There is nothing wrong with the offensive schemes we are using. Playcalling, yes, sometimes it's frustrating. But the issue is talent and experience. Improving that is the only way our offense will get better.

We didnt fire Chris Wilson. My main point, and coach said this much, is that Coach Mullen and our fans should judge our offense as honest and critically as we do our defense. I think we could make some hires on defense that could be for the better. The flip side is that it blows my mind we havent made any moves on offense yet

 

[War Machine Dawg]

Just because the offense sucked, it doesn't mean the D didn't suck too.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

I will say, we demote Les too. But it's painfully obvious which side of the ball Mullen feels was the problem.

 

[engie]

And just so I have this straight, you guys are advocating that we bench a SENIOR QB, who's been shattering passing records at MSU all year, in favor of a SOPHOMORE unproven QB.....just because of some misplace sense that we need a running QB to be successful. Got it.

Link?

If you wanted to argue that point -- you should have done it in a thread where that point was even made. It hasn't been here. Not once.

I'm not advocating benching a senior QB -- I'm advocating benching a 4th year OC who has put together back to back LACKLUSTER offensive seasons after impressing in year 2...that has already flamed out SIX times as an OC elsewhere. We demote Wilson after a single bad season as DC -- yet Koenning is untouchable after 2 very bad seasons as OC? That's BS. At the very least, he needs to be a fulltime QB coach with Mullen taking over playcalling duties.

Personally, I want Koenning gone. If Mullen isn't going to call plays, I want Troy's OC -- who has run an INCREDIBLY successful pass-first spread for 3 years with a non-mobile QB. The past 3 years, they've been #12, #17, and #8 nationally in Passing Offense with ONLY a non-mobile QB prior to this year. This year, Troy ran a 2qb system -- with a passing guy as starter and a dual threat getting a lot of PT. EXACTLY the same scenario as MSU finds itself in. The pass-first guy? Total rushing yards on the season - -47yards. The dual threat lit up defenses on the ground and through the air as well -- meaning this guy can run that style as well.

http://www.troytrojans.com/staff.aspx?staff=19

Best part? He was Hud's OC at North Alabama for something like 7 years. Want to know a large part of what's been missing from our offense since 2010? I can think of a pretty obvious answer...

 

[War Machine Dawg]

Exactly, Coach. We're a finesse team as long as TR starts. For MSU to be good offensively, we have to be physical. We won't be with TR at QB.

 

[CadaverDawg]

Not going to get in to which was worse, but I think Dan started with the right change. I definitely think a change in OC needs to be made, but according to Rosebowl and others, the changes are done. You would think Mullen is pissed at the offensive performance so far in his tenure, so hopefully he addresses that in some way between now and the Okla St game.

 

[War Machine Dawg]

The more I see about this guy, the more I like him. Methinks you're onto something.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

Koennig already got demoted, so you got your wish. I suspect Mullen calls plays next year.

And if you cannot see where people were advocating having a mobile QB next year as the only way to make the offense improve, then your comprehension sucks.

 

[CadaverDawg]

Exactly, Coach. We're a finesse team as long as TR starts. For MSU to be good offensively, we have to be physical. We won't be with TR at QB.

Correct. We either need a total change in offensive philosophy, or else Dak needs to play QB and run the style Mullen knows how to coach. Hate it for Russell, but we know there is no point in a 1 year offensive overhaul, so Dak should start next year. Especially with an entire OLine returning. It could be like the 2010 offense, except far better due to Dak's ability to pass much better than Relf.

 

[CadaverDawg]

Koennig already got demoted, so you got your wish. I suspect Mullen calls plays next year.

And if you cannot see where people were advocating having a mobile QB next year as the only way to make the offense improve, then your comprehension sucks.

Actually I think the Koenning demotion thread was not serious, so NO, I'm afraid YOUR comprehension is off. Koenning is still OC unless I missed the real demotion.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

So, the QB suddenly dictates how physical our offense is, huh.....

it couldn't possibly be an OL that hadn't fully matured, or the lack of a stud RB who can create for himself.

Just watch how we do next year. I'll be around watching all the back-tracking. May be under another username, but I'll be here.

 

[Railin Jemmye]

......so Dak should start next year. Especially with an entire OLine returning. It could be like the 2010 offense, except far better due to Dak's ability to pass much better than Relf.

Good grief. Yeah, we know that last sentence to be fact...........

 

[Koldfire]

Because the head coach is our OFFENSIVE coordinator and he isnt going to fire himself

Exactly! And he didn't (and couldn't in earnest) fire Les because Les just installed his offense. Maybe Mullen has to have a mobile QB to run his system. But he has to learn or be willing to modify or change his system to fit his players. Unless he thought Farve was going to be his QB, he has known that Russell was going to be his QB for three years.

 

[War Machine Dawg]

An OL that hadn't fully matured? Are you 17ing kidding me? I could've sworn we started 2 second-year starters, 1 4th-year starter, 1 JUCO player, and 1 All-SEC 3rd- year starter. Then there's Justin Malone who looked VERY good as a 1st-year player.

How about you just admit that the change in philosophy by Mullen to accommodate a drop-back passing QB led to us being a finesse offense? That's a much more plausible explanation than "an OL that hadn't fully matured" or whatever other ******** you'll come up with next.

And I damn well be you'll have another username, Goat. You can't keep one more than about 2 weeks. Now go take your meds.

 

[drt7891]

Disagree. Diaz started the "bend, but don't break" philosophy. Outside of a few stats, the only difference is, we blitzed a lot under Manny. Not so much with Wison. The stats aren't as different as you would think, though. Look at this link:

http://www.cfbstats.com/2012/team/430/index.html

This year, we averaged right at 30 minutes in time of possession. In 2010, we averaged 31 minutes. We also gave up a good many total yards both years (2012- 5,036, 2010- 4,639) and teams had a respectable 3rd down conversion rate against us (2012- 42.08%, 2010- 37%). I'm not making these numbers up. The DIFFERENCE between Manny and Wilson was red-zone success...

This year, our opponents had 44 attempts in the red zone and scored 35 of those 44 attempts (80%). Opponents averaged 23.3 points per game. In 2010, out of 40 attempts in the red zone (only 4 fewer attempts than this year), teams scored only 29 times (65%). Opponents also averaged 19.8 points per game (with a MUCH tougher schedule).

The stats point to the difference between Manny and Wilson. Manny's defense gave up a lot of yards, gave up a lot of 3rd down conversions, and did not force as many punts as you would think. Those of you thinking Manny was some kind of defensive god can give it up, because there wasn't as big a difference as you would think. Manny defined the "bend, but don't break defense." Mullen talked about it when he hired Manny. The difference, I can't stress enough, was that Manny's defense gave up far fewer TOUCHDOWNS than Wilson's. In case you have forgotten, FGs = 3 points, TDs + a try = 7 points.

 

[Coach34]

What Goat and maybe some others cant understand is:

in 2010- we put together one of the best rushing offenses our school has ever had. Yet it still wasnt what you would call a "good" offense. And everybody around here bitched all season because Relf struggled to throw

in 2011- we had OL injuries and issues that caused us to be even worse offensively

in 2012- we traded the rushing we were getting in 2010 for passing instead- that's it. And we even averaged more yards per game in 2010 than we did in 2012

Breaking Miss State records doesnt really matter at this point. Offense is evolving at a record pace right now. Our offensive records are archaic.

59 QB's in D-1 would have broken our TD pass record this season if that tells you anything about how "special" it is. We have to stop comparing Tyler Russell to our past QB's- and compare him to what is being done nationally in the here and now

 

[Coach 57]

Been saying this for months even posted links on the types of schemes we need to incorporate on offense in order for Tyler to be better on 3rd down and still we're going on about this? We need "AIR-RAID/RUN & SHOOT" or a pro set for Tyler to TRUELY take us WHERE WE NEED TO BE. I'm like engie and C34, we can't be successful with Les as our OC and Tyler at QB. Take your pick one is going to have to go or we'll suffer another disposition like this past season until Tyler graduates. Plain and simple both can't stay and us be where we need to be for our defense to help us. We in fact ARE a finesse football team but we CAN be finesse and still be successful on offense. We'll just need either of those two schemes to get us over the hump. The main problem with this season is 3rd down efficiency KILLED us be we knew it was going to drop. If you didn't you're fooling yourself. Offensive production is based on percentages. There is a higher percentage of a play going south if you pass the ball Vs if you run the ball. Dropped balls, bad snaps, batted passes at the line of scrimmage, INTs, deflected passes by the DB/LB, missed block causes a sack, qb & wr not on the same page presnap, incorrect diagnoses of coverage by qb..etc etc. This is why the read option/zone read qb's are changing the game. Guys like Dak need REPS to get a flow with the RBs. When you run this the offense is actually EASIER to coach from a qb perspective. All he does is read an unblocked DE in the run, play fake off of the dive action for your primary read. If the primary read isn't there then you have 3 quicker options. Secondary if it's covered you have the dump off or the keep. But none of this means a hill of beans if we continue to keep Tyler AND Les together.

 

[CadaverDawg]

Been saying this for months even posted links on the types of schemes we need to incorporate on offense in order for Tyler to be better on 3rd down and still we're going on about this? We need "AIR-RAID/RUN & SHOOT" or a pro set for Tyler to TRUELY take us WHERE WE NEED TO BE. I'm like engie and C34, we can't be successful with Les as our OC and Tyler at QB. Take your pick one is going to have to go or we'll suffer another disposition like this past season until Tyler graduates. Plain and simple both can't stay and us be where we need to be for our defense to help us. We in fact ARE a finesse football team but we CAN be finesse and still be successful on offense. We'll just need either of those two schemes to get us over the hump. The main problem with this season is 3rd down efficiency KILLED us be we knew it was going to drop. If you didn't you're fooling yourself. Offensive production is based on percentages. There is a higher percentage of a play going south if you pass the ball Vs if you run the ball. Dropped balls, bad snaps, batted passes at the line of scrimmage, INTs, deflected passes by the DB/LB, missed block causes a sack, qb & wr not on the same page presnap, incorrect diagnoses of coverage by qb..etc etc. This is why the read option/zone read qb's are changing the game. Guys like Dak need REPS to get a flow with the RBs. When you run this the offense is actually EASIER to coach from a qb perspective. All he does is read an unblocked DE in the run, play fake off of the dive action for your primary read. If the primary read isn't there then you have 3 quicker options. Secondary if it's covered you have the dump off or the keep. But none of this means a hill of beans if we continue to keep Tyler AND Les together.

You can keep Tyler AND Les IF Tyler is on the bench and Dak is starting.

It's pretty simple. Les isn't going anywhere so we have 2 options to be more successful than this season....1) Total change in offensive philosophy like 57 said ^...or 2) Run the offense Mullen knows how to run, and utilize Dak and our experienced OLine. Anything else will be a repeat of next year.

 

[Koldfire]

Been saying this for months even posted links on the types of schemes we need to incorporate on offense in order for Tyler to be better on 3rd down and still we're going on about this? We need "AIR-RAID/RUN & SHOOT" or a pro set for Tyler to TRUELY take us WHERE WE NEED TO BE. I'm like engie and C34, we can't be successful with Les as our OC and Tyler at QB. Take your pick one is going to have to go or we'll suffer another disposition like this past season until Tyler graduates. Plain and simple both can't stay and us be where we need to be for our defense to help us. We in fact ARE a finesse football team but we CAN be finesse and still be successful on offense. We'll just need either of those two schemes to get us over the hump. The main problem with this season is 3rd down efficiency KILLED us be we knew it was going to drop. If you didn't you're fooling yourself. Offensive production is based on percentages. There is a higher percentage of a play going south if you pass the ball Vs if you run the ball. Dropped balls, bad snaps, batted passes at the line of scrimmage, INTs, deflected passes by the DB/LB, missed block causes a sack, qb & wr not on the same page presnap, incorrect diagnoses of coverage by qb..etc etc. This is why the read option/zone read qb's are changing the game. Guys like Dak need REPS to get a flow with the RBs. When you run this the offense is actually EASIER to coach from a qb perspective. All he does is read an unblocked DE in the run, play fake off of the dive action for your primary read. If the primary read isn't there then you have 3 quicker options. Secondary if it's covered you have the dump off or the keep. But none of this means a hill of beans if we continue to keep Tyler AND Les together.

Couldn't Dan just tell Les to do this ^? As he has the last 4 years, I'm sure he will install the offense that he is directed to install.

 

[SPMT]

Couldn't buy a 3rd down conversion

Offense sucks *** when you consider results against top teams. We were a half ***, wannabe pro-style offense, and we used a 190 lbs. scatback when we needed a 220 lbs. SEC back. We need to run power football. Run it out of the shotgun but put a big 17ing back in there to do it and then play action off his ***. TR will kill doing that.

 

[johnson86-1]

People that watch MSU and almost no other football THINK they see a very good offense -- because it's better than 99% of what they've seen in their MSU-watching history(they don't pay attention to national trends... --

Not really. We had issues on offense and defense, but it's pretty reasonable for people to be more concerned about the defense.

On offense, the playcalling seemed horrific at times. It also bothered me that we relied so much on Perkins when Griffin looked to be a better back at the end of the year. But there were bright spots. We knew we were going to have a mediocre offensive line, no deep threat, and a drop off at RB; considering out talent, we didn't hugely underachieve. The OL didn't have the talent against good defenses, but seemed to play up to their potential in a lot of games. We also seemed to execute pretty well when playing teams with comparable or less talent (excluding the UM and Northwestern game). Overall nothing to be thrilled about, but while I would like to see someone new calling plays, I do think we can get better with the current staff.

On defense, I don't think anybody expected our DL to be a weakness, that our supposedly lockdown corners would consistently play ten yards off the los, or that our backfield consisting of nothing but upperclassmen would go all year without getting on the same page as to when there is safety help over the top and when there is not. And there didn't seem to be many bright spots on defense even when we were playing less talented teams (although some of that may be his bend, don't break philosophy lets it look like weaker teams are doing better than they are).

A talent upgrade would likely solve a lot of the coaching issues on both sides of the ball, but I feel like the worst case scenario for offense is that we slightly improve next year, and then began to steadily improve again as the staff moves back to an offensive style it's more comfortable with. I think the worst case scenario from keeping the same staff on defense would have been much worse.