Of course not but seeing SHU just that once made him believe we were better than he originally believed. Not a ton better, but better.
Carino: Seton Hall basketball: Budd Clark looks like a Big East floor general
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Definitely a good example to counteract the need for 5 studs argument.
But please be careful that we aren’t expecting a player from MAAC to step in and do anything close to what Powell did that year. He went from taking a back seat to 4 accomplished seniors to challenging Marcus Howard for BE player of the year honors.
He averaged 23 ppg, shot 36% from 3 on over 8 attempts per game that year, when everyone knew the ball was going to him. If not for his legal matters against the school, Powell is arguably a Mt. Rushmore candidate for the MBB program.
We all want things to be better than last year. I do believe they will be. But we are putting an awful lot of pressure and expectations on a kid who hasn’t even set foot on the court as a Pirate yet.
I believe he does. When Jerry had a AP Top 25 vote I strongly believe that he was far more knowledgeable than many of his compatriots. Jerry is very fair minded and usually holds his bias at the door.
You know him. I don't. For AP Top 25, I'm sure you are right. For purposes of a Seton Hall specific preseason article -- after he's finally gotten some long-desired access, and coming off last year's debacle -- I think his primary goal was to excite the fan base (his readers) with anything and everything positive he witnessed, and ensure the "access" he now has stays that way.
I for one am not expecting great things from this team.
To Dehere's point above, you might well start Q, Nzei, Cale and Sandro alongside Clark.
Clark isn't Powell and I think few expect he would be. The fact that none of the others are here is probably an indication that this team is well behind that one.
Sha is in a tough spot and clearly NIL is limiting what roster he can build.
but for me and many others he needs to win the fans back. 7-25 and last place will do that. No optimism of any kind from Jerry or anyone “in the know” is going to change that opinion. The program is only going to earn respect through results on the court.
So what level of success was there when there was only one stud on the team? Tell us how low you set the bar? When KR was here you want to tell me he was the only stud on the team? You disrespect the other kids when you say that and it is not even close to being true!
Every season we get these articles on reasons for hope. But I felt this one was a bit more positive and grounded from Jerry. Maybe he was just there for a good day. Sounds like last year was a bad day but nobody would say it at the time for political reasons, idk.
Hoping for the best. I do think we can at least be competitive at PG/C which is where he focuses on the most too.
Hoping for the best. I do think we can at least be competitive at PG/C which is where he focuses on the most too.
If Godswill is our 3rd best center and Felton is our 6th best guard maybe we ain’t that bad?
I spoke to Jerry as we are good friends before he wrote the story. His optimism as such is what he believes. In fact for the sake of the article he toned it down maybe a hair. Except for Clark who he truly believes will be a star.
Jerry is a pro's pro. He does his very best to not let his SHU and Rutgers bias, he is afterall the beat writer for both, color his stories. That said he is human so yeah he tilts the expected way for both programs. But I would say less so than his fellow beat writers for other schools.
What you read was what he saw and he spent a lot of time before he wrote his story formulating the 2 1/2 hours at South Orange.
FWIW Jerry and I have very similar thoughts on what we saw. For me about 10 days ago and for Jerry a couple of days ago. But believe me in what I say, we each believe with no agenda in what we think. Doesn't mean we are right but I am very confident our opinions will play out.
We'll see.
Jerry is a pro's pro. He does his very best to not let his SHU and Rutgers bias, he is afterall the beat writer for both, color his stories. That said he is human so yeah he tilts the expected way for both programs. But I would say less so than his fellow beat writers for other schools.
What you read was what he saw and he spent a lot of time before he wrote his story formulating the 2 1/2 hours at South Orange.
FWIW Jerry and I have very similar thoughts on what we saw. For me about 10 days ago and for Jerry a couple of days ago. But believe me in what I say, we each believe with no agenda in what we think. Doesn't mean we are right but I am very confident our opinions will play out.
We'll see.
Well yours and Jerry's views, insights and opinions are great to have. A wealth of knowledge for sure. You folks do have a built in bias as we all do. I'm sure there was optimism when you and Jerry did this for last year's team too. I was optimistic too (even if you think I am always negative) and we saw how that played out. I think we need to be very careful about expectations given almost a completely new starting lineup. Way too many unknowns. As many have said practices and the team on paper means nothing until the actual games are played and we actually see what the kids can do on the court against real competition.
Outside of expecting Bud to be a starter we are not sure who the other 4 will be. That is interesting and scary!
Outside of expecting Bud to be a starter we are not sure who the other 4 will be. That is interesting and scary!
To me “Star” is a first, second or third team BE player. Is Clark a star? I don’t know.
If our guys can’t start on the majority of BE teams (and that includes Bud), we should be a little more careful about who is a star.
If our guys can’t start on the majority of BE teams (and that includes Bud), we should be a little more careful about who is a star.
I generally agree with you about earning it on the court, but Willard had the 2nd best run of any coach in the last 70 years at SetonHall and took tons of heat here. Louis Orr similarly. I agree we have to do better, but there is an active portion of this community that will always look at the negative.
To me, Sha tried last year to bring in the disappointing young players that were highly regarded out of HS, offering a change in scenery approach. It failed miserably.
This year's gamble is different. This roster is built with a ton of older players or players with alot of experience. The revenue sharing came late for us but it probably opened up the door for Hines. If we improve and have revenue sharing in place for the foreseeable future, we should be in a much better position moving forward after this season.
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I think Budd Clark has a PG skill set closer to Barrett from what I have seen. I am not comparing him to the overall player Barrett was so let’s not start with the faux outrage in comparing them please. Clark is not on that level as a scorer and multiple-level threat offensively. But I am talking about PG skills, getting to the rim, setting up teammates, recognizing movement and spacing, creating angles, delivering the ball timely. I also think he’s a leader. We had NONE of those skills last year on the team whatsoever.
While I was high on Dual’s potential, what I saw was a guy who had pedestrian facilitator PG skills. This was not a player driving to the rim and creating off the dribble. Dual had some good vision at times but floated around the perimeter and midrange way too much. That would’ve been way more effective if we ran a spread/motion offense.
All kinds of different PG’s out there; we need one that does it all in creating with the way Sha plays.
While I was high on Dual’s potential, what I saw was a guy who had pedestrian facilitator PG skills. This was not a player driving to the rim and creating off the dribble. Dual had some good vision at times but floated around the perimeter and midrange way too much. That would’ve been way more effective if we ran a spread/motion offense.
All kinds of different PG’s out there; we need one that does it all in creating with the way Sha plays.
I wish we could’ve had someone do an in-depth piece and postmortem on what went on behind the scenes last season (maybe I missed it with the On3 circus
), but unlikely in Sha’s World.This all starts with the shocking lack of money that the school had for Sha last offseason in 2024 and then his ill-fated attempt to buy quantity in the bargain bin and none of it working out. Plus I think he’s truthful when he talks about the NIT run. I don’t think Sha or this staff were adapting to the changing dynamics (hello GM?).
We all said, “Well this guy has potential if this happens AND that happens oh and if this THIRD thing happens….” None of it happened. It all bombed with injuries and malcontents and a coach in over his head for last year and we were a laughingstock with other coaches calling us out.
We had a lot more money this year, you can see it. The approach was different? Maybe? The talent is better, came from more power conference schools. We reeled in an expensive freshman big. Last year we had a bunch of player issues but wasn’t really talked about at the time and now we don’t or is it not being talked about again? Will it matter?
Sha may have gone to the bargain bin but let's not diss the players. Reread their BIOs and you will see there was quality. More so last year. Some of them were highly regarded. They just did not work out with Sha's system and how he used them. Then there were many injuries that prevented the team from meshing and jelling. When you have lots of new faces it is important for guys to have time to play together. There was a lot of disruption due to injuries.
I also don't think Sha did such a great job last year.
I also don't think Sha did such a great job last year.
I wish it would’ve worked out. I don’t want to sit through 7-25, 2-18 and awful looking basketball again. Except for Coleman, all went down a level which is probably the best tell as how they’re seen across the industry.
Dual – McNeese State
Aligbe – Southern Illinois
Middleton – Tulane
Okorafor – Wichita State
Toumi – Hawaii (eligible?)
Yalden – Vermont
Tubek – UTEP
Harmon – Bethune Cookman (returns!)
i will never be careful with my praise for shu hoops. 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all BE for Budd!
Piratz given the horrible results how could they get recruited to major programs? That does not mean that individually there are not some really quality kids in that group. Some of them where 4 star HS kids! Something went wrong last year no doubt. Bring talent together that did not mesh was part of it.
Budd and Hines are going to be worth watching Seton Hall games. I've seen enough of them play on their previous teams to say that much.
Will that translate to Wins? No one knows how many.
The rest of the team has a lot of question marks but there is some ability and from what we hear, they have the right attitude. I don't fault anyone for picking them 11th but this will be a better team than last year's, they will be competitive in many more games and they will be entertaining to watch at times. 7th to 9th feels like the right range.
Will that translate to Wins? No one knows how many.
The rest of the team has a lot of question marks but there is some ability and from what we hear, they have the right attitude. I don't fault anyone for picking them 11th but this will be a better team than last year's, they will be competitive in many more games and they will be entertaining to watch at times. 7th to 9th feels like the right range.
Who's saying that? I've been saying maybe a little spoiled from the back half of the Willard years to meltdown over one awful season. Hopefully, lessons were learned, and we see improvement annually, going forward.
If our fans are "bad" in any way, it's in contributing.
Agreed
I feel confident nobody on this roster will be asked to go into a game, not have his uniform on and then be upset that the coach was pissed.
The two 4 star guys out of HS that you mention underperformed at their previous colleges. We took a chance and it didn’t work. Those guys were well below the lofty expectations they had coming out of HS when they arrived at SHU. Now those two guys and every guy who left with remaining eligibility are at lower level schools with the exception of Coleman. There was very little talent.
Here are 3 BIOS for 3 of the guys Sha brought in and they were all great on paper and he did well to get them on paper. Something went wrong when they all bombed here. Was it them? or something else? The chemistry? The coaching style? The style of play? The talent must have been there.
Gus
BEFORE SETON HALL: Ranked as the 17th best center in the country for his class, according to 247 Sports ... Attended IMG Academy (Bradenton, Fla.) and the Asheville School (Asheville, N.C.) during his sophomore and junior years before landing at La Lumiere (La Porte, Ind.) for his senior year ... Helped La Lumiere finish 18-10 in the National Interscholastic Basketball Conference (NIBC), which is considered to be one of the toughest conferences in the nation ... Had a strong summer in the Nike EYBL prior to his senior season, which included a 35-point, 17-rebound performance at the prestigious Nike Peach Jam in July.
Scotty
2023-24 (Ohio State): Appeared in 30 games, making one start ... Averaged 4.4 points and 1.7 rebounds in 15.3 minutes per game ... Was 28-of-62 from three-point range for a solid 45.2 percent ... Made 10 of his final 12 three-pointers over his last five games ... One of the team’s quickest defenders. Had seven blocks and 11 steals ... Had a very good in his collegiate debut, scoring 13 points and grabbing eight rebounds while posting a team-high +19 plus/minus in the season opener vs. Oakland (11/6) ... Had nine points and five rebounds in his first Big Ten road game at Penn State (12/9) ... Was 4-of-4 from the floor and finished with nine points at Indiana (1/6) ... Made his first collegiate start in the win at Michigan State (2/25), finishing with three points ... Connected on a season-high three three-pointers, finishing with nine points in the win over Nebraska (2/29) ... Was perfect from the floor, going 4-for-4 and 3-of-3 from long range to finish with 11 points in the Big Ten Tournament win over Iowa (3/14)
HIGH SCHOOL: A five-star prospect who was ranked 34th nationally according to ESPN ... Versatile perimeter player who played on one of the most talented teams in the country at Sunrise Christian ... Helped lead Sunrise Christian to the Geico Nationals in each of his last two seasons. Sunrise reached the final four in his senior year after knocking-off defending champion and top-seed Montverde in the first round ... Was a team captain for his senior season ... Averaged over 12 points and 2.5 assists per game at Sunrise in the 2022-23 season ... Was considered one of the best perimeter defenders in the class, both on and off the ball ... Played for Brad Beal Elite AAU team on the EYBL Circuit ... Helped lead Brad Beal Elite to the Elite 8 of Nike’s Peach Jam where he averaged 10.9 points, 4.0 rebounds and 2.0 assists across the seven games.
Garway
Coming out of California, Dual was as consensus four-star, top-50 prospect in the class of 2023 due to his size, including a long wingspan, and his high-end athleticism and explosiveness. He’s the fifth former four-star prospect to commit to the Hall as a transfer this offseason, joining guard Zion Harmon, wing Scotty Middleton, forward Prince Aligbe and center Gus Yalden. This is clearly a pattern by head coach Shaheen Holloway – reclaiming talented players who didn’t flourish as expected at their last stop (it should be noted that Harmon was productive, but at a low-major).
Gus
BEFORE SETON HALL: Ranked as the 17th best center in the country for his class, according to 247 Sports ... Attended IMG Academy (Bradenton, Fla.) and the Asheville School (Asheville, N.C.) during his sophomore and junior years before landing at La Lumiere (La Porte, Ind.) for his senior year ... Helped La Lumiere finish 18-10 in the National Interscholastic Basketball Conference (NIBC), which is considered to be one of the toughest conferences in the nation ... Had a strong summer in the Nike EYBL prior to his senior season, which included a 35-point, 17-rebound performance at the prestigious Nike Peach Jam in July.
Scotty
2023-24 (Ohio State): Appeared in 30 games, making one start ... Averaged 4.4 points and 1.7 rebounds in 15.3 minutes per game ... Was 28-of-62 from three-point range for a solid 45.2 percent ... Made 10 of his final 12 three-pointers over his last five games ... One of the team’s quickest defenders. Had seven blocks and 11 steals ... Had a very good in his collegiate debut, scoring 13 points and grabbing eight rebounds while posting a team-high +19 plus/minus in the season opener vs. Oakland (11/6) ... Had nine points and five rebounds in his first Big Ten road game at Penn State (12/9) ... Was 4-of-4 from the floor and finished with nine points at Indiana (1/6) ... Made his first collegiate start in the win at Michigan State (2/25), finishing with three points ... Connected on a season-high three three-pointers, finishing with nine points in the win over Nebraska (2/29) ... Was perfect from the floor, going 4-for-4 and 3-of-3 from long range to finish with 11 points in the Big Ten Tournament win over Iowa (3/14)
HIGH SCHOOL: A five-star prospect who was ranked 34th nationally according to ESPN ... Versatile perimeter player who played on one of the most talented teams in the country at Sunrise Christian ... Helped lead Sunrise Christian to the Geico Nationals in each of his last two seasons. Sunrise reached the final four in his senior year after knocking-off defending champion and top-seed Montverde in the first round ... Was a team captain for his senior season ... Averaged over 12 points and 2.5 assists per game at Sunrise in the 2022-23 season ... Was considered one of the best perimeter defenders in the class, both on and off the ball ... Played for Brad Beal Elite AAU team on the EYBL Circuit ... Helped lead Brad Beal Elite to the Elite 8 of Nike’s Peach Jam where he averaged 10.9 points, 4.0 rebounds and 2.0 assists across the seven games.
Garway
Coming out of California, Dual was as consensus four-star, top-50 prospect in the class of 2023 due to his size, including a long wingspan, and his high-end athleticism and explosiveness. He’s the fifth former four-star prospect to commit to the Hall as a transfer this offseason, joining guard Zion Harmon, wing Scotty Middleton, forward Prince Aligbe and center Gus Yalden. This is clearly a pattern by head coach Shaheen Holloway – reclaiming talented players who didn’t flourish as expected at their last stop (it should be noted that Harmon was productive, but at a low-major).
Or maybe the "on paper" evaluation is wrong and fluffed? Why are we taking these as Gospel? Recruiting rankings of HS players are notoriously flawed historically. I think they need to be judged for what they produce on the court and their actual college careers, not what scouts thought of them 3+ years ago in HS for some.
Middleton and Dual are already on their 3rd schools and have not produced commiserate to their HS rankings in any stop. Positive glimpses? Sure. Was I hoping they'd develop? Absolutely. But they didn't show enough for anyone. Same for Yalden. He's also on his 3rd school and had issues in Wisconsin. Good hustle and energy guy but didn't see much BE skill or production.
In Yalden's case he simply does not have the physical ability to play high D1 ball.
In Dual's case he was injured all year and needed off season surgery on his shoulder. The expected recovery timeframe was right about now. Meaning he had no time to work on his game and that was the reason Sha didn't want him. Dual wanted to come back.
In Middleton's case he absolutely wanted to come back. But he had issues and those issues caused chemistry problems and Sha decided the potential wasn't worth the grief.
With maturity and a better understanding of the game this young man could play most anywhere in the country.
In Dual's case he was injured all year and needed off season surgery on his shoulder. The expected recovery timeframe was right about now. Meaning he had no time to work on his game and that was the reason Sha didn't want him. Dual wanted to come back.
In Middleton's case he absolutely wanted to come back. But he had issues and those issues caused chemistry problems and Sha decided the potential wasn't worth the grief.
With maturity and a better understanding of the game this young man could play most anywhere in the country.
I feel like we are in a much better place at the 5 going into this season as opposed to last. Hines is football tough as opposed to some of the players we have had at the 5 who look the part but played a bit soft. If Godswill is potentially the 2nd or 3rd 5 on the team, it bodes well for us to be competitive at that spot.