FLO Rankings 12-9-2025 Ohio State #1

[SlipperyPete]

without a doubt. Luke was #1 prior to that loss..moved to #2 the following week. Intermat did same thing. I personally don't like it, but I get it

But, according to the NCAA Rulesbook (rule 9.6.4), "Non-Allowable ISRF Matches. Matches between teammates, against opponents who are not listed on an institutional roster, a club-level wrestler, a prospective student-athlete or an armed services student-athlete shall not be counted." So, according to the NCAA Rulesbook, Luke is still undefeated. His loss to Desmond should not be counted on his individual season record.

In post #224 @Kozak states, "Coaches and fans don't want us to inject our predictions into the rankings because coaches use our rankings for the coach's rankings. The coach's rank determines bids to NCAAs and should be results-based."

If the NCAA says a match between teammates doesn't count, then that match should have no impact on rankings that are used in any capacity for the NCAA tournament. Anything that affects bids or seeding for the NCAA tournament should comply with the rules established by the governing body.

This is somewhat of a sticky wicket for Flo. If their rankings are just for fans, then it doesn't matter what information is used to determine them. They have the freedom to interject anything they choose. But, if those rankings impact anything involved with the NCAA tournament, then they should comply with the rules set forth by the NCAA.

 

[JoeBagobagels]

has anyone actually heard that there was a wrestle-off between Kasak and Duke?

I've heard people say so, but actually who knows?

 

[JoeBagobagels]

The stupid thing is that even if you just go with the ten guys starting now and assume Barr is out for the year and Desmond is going 141 this team still wins the title in a walk. Ranking while not using your eyes or any common sense is stupid. In what world is Blaze the 8th best 133 and Duke the 11th best at 157?

You know what alternate universe that is, lol!

 

[pish69]

The more I think about rankings and this stuff, I don't understand why wrestling doesn't do it like college football or basketball. In both those sports, teams are ranked pre-season accounting for incoming freshman. If you have a college basketball team with 3 stud freshman coming in, I've seen it where these teams (who were not good year before) were ranked top 5 coming in.

IMO the perfect scenario would be..start the pre-season rankings off as a mix of crystal ball and tradional rankings. If you think Duke is going to be top 3, then start him at 3. As the season progresses move them up or down from there. It would make more sense than starting them unranked, definetly will be more accurate. After the season starts, then no more crystal ball, just rank accodingly as season develops. Only thing you're changing by doing it this way is the starting point. This takes away the craziness we see now.

 

[pish69]

But, according to the NCAA Rulesbook (rule 9.6.4), "Non-Allowable ISRF Matches. Matches between teammates, against opponents who are not listed on an institutional roster, a club-level wrestler, a prospective student-athlete or an armed services student-athlete shall not be counted." So, according to the NCAA Rulesbook, Luke is still undefeated. His loss to Desmond should not be counted on his individual season record.

In post #224 @Kozak states, "Coaches and fans don't want us to inject our predictions into the rankings because coaches use our rankings for the coach's rankings. The coach's rank determines bids to NCAAs and should be results-based."

If the NCAA says a match between teammates doesn't count, then that match should have no impact on rankings that are used in any capacity for the NCAA tournament. Anything that affects bids or seeding for the NCAA tournament should comply with the rules established by the governing body.

This is somewhat of a sticky wicket for Flo. If their rankings are just for fans, then it doesn't matter what information is used to determine them. They have the freedom to interject anything they choose. But, if those rankings impact anything involved with the NCAA tournament, then they should comply with the rules set forth by the NCAA.

I agree with you, but they started this precedent, back when Mark Hall (pre-season #1) who was defending national champ, lost to Zahid (pre-season #2) in all-star match (doesn't count). They both went undefeated and Zahid was #1 and Hall #2 ins final seeding (this was all because rankers went Zahid 1 and Hall 2 every week after the match that technically didn't count.

Their opinion is..that match happened, and we can't unsee what they saw. I get that.

I don't like the Desmond match knocking Luke down because no one knows what Desmond is. Desmond could be the next 4 timer and go undefeated (I highly doubt it), so how can they knock Luke down because of that?

All-Star matches..I understand and I can rationalize it. Teammate matches..makes no sense to me..room familiarity, killer instinct all those go away (unless your Jason Nolf after what he did to Bo Pipher that year at Black Knight or Nittany Lion Open (can't remember where that was).

No one can change my mind that if Sealey was wearing an Iowa singlet instead of a PSU singlet, PJ wouldn't have dominated that match

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

The more I think about rankings and this stuff, I don't understand why wrestling doesn't do it like college football or basketball. In both those sports, teams are ranked pre-season accounting for incoming freshman. If you have a college basketball team with 3 stud freshman coming in, I've seen it where these teams (who were not good year before) were ranked top 5 coming in.

IMO the perfect scenario would be..start the pre-season rankings off as a mix of crystal ball and tradional rankings. If you think Duke is going to be top 3, then start him at 3. As the season progresses move them up or down from there. It would make more sense than starting them unranked, definetly will be more accurate. After the season starts, then no more crystal ball, just rank accodingly as season develops. Only thing you're changing by doing it this way is the starting point. This takes away the craziness we see now.

Re: the first paragraph - The key distinction is that for football and basketball they only ever look at the team as a whole. But in wrestling the team rankings are built from the sum of the individual rankings.

Re: the second paragraph - makes sense to me.

There is no third paragraph so I will add my own. I have no problem with the current process either. It gets to the right answer when the answer needs to be right, at the end of the season. And I am not as bothered as some by the winding path along the way.

 

[pish69]

There is no third paragraph so I will add my own. I have no problem with the current process either. It gets to the right answer when the answer needs to be right, at the end of the season. And I am not as bothered as some by the winding path along the way.

For diehards like those here, I agree, but it truly doesn't paint the picture it should.

I have a few friends (non wrestling fans but know I love Penn State wrestling). They all asked me why is PSU #3 when I told them they were so great (they were breaking my chops).

I then had to proceed to try to explain how they don't rank true freshman where they should because they just started their college resume. Then they said "didn't those freshman win World Championships this summer and didn't u tell me the one kid beat a 4 time national champ and 2 other national champs?" Then I said yes they did but rankers don't take that into consideration. Then I got laughed at and they walked away saying "how stupid, and to let them know when PSU #1 again."

Also got a text from one of my son's friends this week (who goes to tOSU), saying "big bad PSU down to 3? What happened? Who'd they lose to? We're #1 now, guess they not that good"

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

For diehards like those here, I agree, but it truly doesn't paint the picture it should.

I have a few friends (non wrestling fans but know I love Penn State wrestling). They all asked me why is PSU #3 when I told them they were so great (they were breaking my chops).

I then had to proceed to try to explain how they don't rank true freshman where they should because they just started their college resume. Then they said "didn't those freshman win World Championships this summer and didn't u tell me the one kid beat a 4 time national champ and 2 other national champs?" Then I said yes they did but rankers don't take that into consideration. Then I got laughed at and they walked away saying "how stupid, and to let them know when PSU #1 again."

Also got a text from one of my son's friends this week (who goes to tOSU), saying "big bad PSU down to 3? What happened? Who'd they lose to? We're #1 now, guess they not that good"

You are looking at it all wrong.

These are just betting opportunities.

 

[Sunshine88!]

Absolute Huge match coming up against OSU in the BJC. Place will be Rocking

 

[Nitlion1986]

For diehards like those here, I agree, but it truly doesn't paint the picture it should.

I have a few friends (non wrestling fans but know I love Penn State wrestling). They all asked me why is PSU #3 when I told them they were so great (they were breaking my chops).

I then had to proceed to try to explain how they don't rank true freshman where they should because they just started their college resume. Then they said "didn't those freshman win World Championships this summer and didn't u tell me the one kid beat a 4 time national champ and 2 other national champs?" Then I said yes they did but rankers don't take that into consideration. Then I got laughed at and they walked away saying "how stupid, and to let them know when PSU #1 again."

Also got a text from one of my son's friends this week (who goes to tOSU), saying "big bad PSU down to 3? What happened? Who'd they lose to? We're #1 now, guess they not that good"

Shouldn't PSU be 4th? ISU has a head-to-head win over Iowa.

OSU
ISU
Iowa
PSU

 

[pish69]

Shouldn't PSU be 4th? ISU has a head-to-head win over Iowa.

OSU
ISU
Iowa
PSU

Maybe 5th with Jax Forrest coming in 2nd semester..

 

[SlipperyPete]

I'm probably being a little too anal. My intention wasn't to rag on Flo, so no offense @Kozak ! I'm grateful for the work Flo does. They're some of the best ambassadors in this sport we love. Without Flo, we wouldn't have been able to watch the match against Wyoming last week.

I couldn't sleep last night, stumbled upon the rulesbook & skimmed through it. That didn't help me sleep & just got my analytical mind wondering. I realize now how challenging the rankings are, because you can never please everyone.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Shouldn't PSU be 4th? ISU has a head-to-head win over Iowa.

OSU
ISU
Iowa
PSU

Hey, don't spoil next weeks update. Lol.

 

[Cstroke]

I'm probably being a little too anal. My intention wasn't to rag on Flo, so no offense @Kozak ! I'm grateful for the work Flo does. They're some of the best ambassadors in this sport we love. Without Flo, we wouldn't have been able to watch the match against Wyoming last week.

I couldn't sleep last night, stumbled upon the rulesbook & skimmed through it. That didn't help me sleep & just got my analytical mind wondering. I realize now how challenging the rankings are, because you can never please everyone.

Just to be crystal clear My intentions are to Rag on Flo...
Sorry Not Sorry Kozak....

 

[PSUbluTX]

I realize now how challenging the rankings are, because you can never please everyone.

Which is why the rankings should focus on just pleasing this board.

 

[El_Jefe]

I agree with you, but they started this precedent, back when Mark Hall (pre-season #1) who was defending national champ, lost to Zahid (pre-season #2) in all-star match (doesn't count). They both went undefeated and Zahid was #1 and Hall #2 ins final seeding (this was all because rankers went Zahid 1 and Hall 2 every week after the match that technically didn't count.

Their opinion is..that match happened, and we can't unsee what they saw. I get that.

I don't like the Desmond match knocking Luke down because no one knows what Desmond is. Desmond could be the next 4 timer and go undefeated (I highly doubt it), so how can they knock Luke down because of that?

All-Star matches..I understand and I can rationalize it. Teammate matches..makes no sense to me..room familiarity, killer instinct all those go away (unless your Jason Nolf after what he did to Bo Pipher that year at Black Knight or Nittany Lion Open (can't remember where that was).

No one can change my mind that if Sealey was wearing an Iowa singlet instead of a PSU singlet, PJ wouldn't have dominated that match

The precedent was likely set earlier, with the Wright-Wilps all-star match.

 

[Fatwoodchuck]

You are looking at it all wrong.

These are just betting opportunities.

No they are not when you have so many upsets during one week of wrestling how can you take that as real rankings for betting. I do get why people get annoyed, I like you do not care but they should be called what they are. Everybody that is doing wrestling rankings is only looking at outcomes, that is not rankings, that is letting the pieces fall and putting numbers beside them for end of season.

Again, call them power rankings put your thoughts out there and be ready for the scrutiny or praise that you get because you are either A) your good at rankings or B) might as well just use wrestlers state for rankings.

Honestly comments from both sides contradict what ea h are saying and it is mind numbing. If matches dont count how can the coaches use your rankings if you are putting false records out there. Not all freshman are made equally either some are better than others and to not use that is insane too. If there is a top freshman in a small conference how is he gonna get the right seeding? He doesnt he gets punished for going to a small school/conference. Makes no sense for sure.

To be honest the way rankings are now, they are really just grading the athletes not ranking them.

 

[pish69]

No they are not when you have so many upsets during one week of wrestling how can you take that as real rankings for betting. I do get why people get annoyed, I like you do not care but they should be called what they are. Everybody that is doing wrestling rankings is only looking at outcomes, that is not rankings, that is letting the pieces fall and putting numbers beside them for end of season.

I may be wrong but I think WKN meant since my friends are clueless and are going off rankings, it would be easy money if I bet them..maybe I'm wrong though

If there were real betting lines..no one would use any of these rankings as they all are wrong..they would use a crystal ball to set lines. Ask Nelson Brands..he probably knows

 

[pish69]

My own personal betting lines for Duke and Blaze based on Flo's ranking.

Currently 10 guys ahead of Duke..
Swisher 50-1
Arrington 50-1
Williams 100-1
Webster 4-1
Taylor 5-1
Cannon 25-1
Cardenes 35-1
Zerban 50-1
Robideaux 3-1
Watters 20-1

6 guys ahead of Blaze
Knox 10-1
Larkin 20-1
Ayala 10-1
Frost 20-1
Davino 3-1
Byrd Pickem

Thoughts?

 

[Lil Nicky Scarfo]

Absolute Huge match coming up against OSU in the BJC. Place will be Rocking

Ryan will feel like Custer did in the late afternoon with the Lakota Sioux and Cheyenne Warriors closing in.

 

[PUR158]

Spratley started season #2. He went down below Luke after losing to Peterson

Got it, thanks for the redirect. I was definitely looking at the mid November rankings, my bad! This was me this morning on too much coffee.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

I may be wrong but I think WKN meant since my friends are clueless and are going off rankings, it would be easy money if I bet them..maybe I'm wrong though

If there were real betting lines..no one would use any of these rankings as they all are wrong..they would use a crystal ball to set lines. Ask Nelson Brands..he probably knows

That's exactly what I meant. The anOSU student busts your chops a bit so you respond....

"Well, let's make it interesting. These rankings can only be settled at the NCAA tournament. And since anOSU is the favorite I am gonna need some points".

Of course he will balk at this. So after a little back and forth you settle on straight up as a "compromise".

Now the question becomes, how much do you want to bet him? He is your son's friend after all and only a college student. You can't send him to the poor house. So you make it small. Say $20, maybe $10. The real satisfaction isn't the money. It is watching the slow dawning on his face of the thought, "I think I have been had here. Maybe that old guy knows a thing or two after all."

 

[Fatwoodchuck]

I may be wrong but I think WKN meant since my friends are clueless and are going off rankings, it would be easy money if I bet them..maybe I'm wrong though

If there were real betting lines..no one would use any of these rankings as they all are wrong..they would use a crystal ball to set lines. Ask Nelson Brands..he probably knows

Yes, I knew @Wrestleknownothing meant it as a joke . It just hit on a post of mine in another thread. I also know he did not mean that towards the other post as well, it just kinda opened the door. I do understand the confusion.

 

[pish69]

That's exactly what I meant. The anOSU student busts your chops a bit so you respond....

"Well, let's make it interesting. These rankings can only be settled at the NCAA tournament. And since anOSU is the favorite I am gonna need some points".

Of course he will balk at this. So after a little back and forth you settle on straight up as a "compromise".

Now the question becomes, how much do you want to bet him? He is your son's friend after all and only a college student. You can't send him to the poor house. So you make it small. Say $20, maybe $10. The real satisfaction isn't the money. It is watching the slow dawning on his face of the thought, "I think I have been had here. Maybe that old guy knows a thing or two after all."

Screw it..I'm taking his money! Here's why..he has it!

Crazy story. This same kid is the worst poker player in the world. I tell him not to play because he always loses his money when playing with my son and his friends..

At the end of summer..my son comes down screaming in joy that he won $2,500 and the tOSU student won $30k online (some crazy online poker thing I never heard of). It's small stake $1/$2 blind games. My son's friend, had 4 of a kind, goes all in for like a $50 pot and loses. Other guy calls, and has straight flush. The bells go off on the poker site they're on. All of a sudden, $2,500 goes to each guy at the table and $30,000 goes to my sons friend. Apparently this site has what they call a "bad beat jackpot" which is like a running thing. So because he lost with 4 of a kind, the jackpot was $30k and every person that just happened to be at table got $2,500. UNREAL LUCK..Long Story short..if I take your advice, I'm betting more than $20

I couldn't believe it..I thought they got scammed. I asked to see my son's bank account. Nothing in it. Apparently this site payed my son like $500 every couple days until it hit $2,500. His friend finally got all his money as well, in increments. I saw both bank accounts and verified it..what a lucky 2 kids. I told my son's friend and my son..get off that stupid site and never play online again..that kind of luck isn't sustainable and you will lose it all if you stay

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

Screw it..I'm taking his money! Here's why..he has it!

Crazy story. This same kid is the worst poker player in the world. I tell him not to play because he always loses his money when playing with my son and his friends..

At the end of summer..my son comes down screaming in joy that he won $2,500 and the tOSU student won $30k online (some crazy online poker thing I never heard of). It's small stake $1/$2 blind games. My son's friend, had 4 of a kind, goes all in for like a $50 pot and loses. Other guy calls, and has straight flush. The bells go off on the poker site they're on. All of a sudden, $2,500 goes to each guy at the table and $30,000 goes to my sons friend. Apparently this site has what they call a "bad beat jackpot" which is like a running thing. So because he lost with 4 of a kind, the jackpot was $30k and every person that just happened to be at table got $2,500. UNREAL LUCK..Long Story short..if I take your advice, I'm betting more than $20

I couldn't believe it..I thought they got scammed. I asked to see my son's bank account. Nothing in it. Apparently this site payed my son like $500 every couple days until it hit $2,500. His friend finally got all his money as well, in increments. I saw both bank accounts and verified it..what a lucky 2 kids. I told my son's friend and my son..get off that stupid site and never play online again..that kind of luck isn't sustainable and you will lose it all if you stay

The road to ruin is littered with guys who mistook luck for skill.

It is also littered with guys who stay in pots/games too long because they think they have a chance at the bad beat pool.

 

[WV lion]

My own personal betting lines for Duke and Blaze based on Flo's ranking.

Currently 10 guys ahead of Duke..
Swisher 50-1
Arrington 50-1
Williams 100-1
Webster 4-1
Taylor 5-1
Cannon 25-1
Cardenes 35-1
Zerban 50-1
Robideaux 3-1
Watters 20-1

6 guys ahead of Blaze
Knox 10-1
Larkin 20-1
Ayala 10-1
Frost 20-1
Davino 3-1
Byrd Pickem

Thoughts?

Cannon has better chance than taylor. Taylor may not make it through the match.

 

[Kiddagger311]

Love it! Has the origin story ever been told regarding the feud between Matter and Rutgers?

Something about being banned on Rutgers forum.. and till this day Rutgers has felt Matter’s wrath.. apparently he still goes to a Rutgers match once in awhile.. idk y tho..

 

[District 4]

The road to ruin is littered with guys who mistook luck for skill.

It is also littered with guys who stay in pots/games too long because they think they have a chance at the bad beat pool.

Fish

 

[Sullivan]

Just to be crystal clear My intentions are to Rag on Flo...
Sorry Not Sorry Kozak....

From Flo's perspective, it's probably better to be ragged on rankings, instead of their stream not working.

 

[J-007]

I just googled "when did rankings stop being predictions". The answer was they haven't. It went on to give examples about football but at the end of the day rankings are still considered predictions.

 

[Dogwelder]

I'm probably being a little too anal. My intention wasn't to rag on Flo, so no offense @Kozak ! I'm grateful for the work Flo does. They're some of the best ambassadors in this sport we love. Without Flo, we wouldn't have been able to watch the match against Wyoming last week.

I couldn't sleep last night, stumbled upon the rulesbook & skimmed through it. That didn't help me sleep & just got my analytical mind wondering. I realize now how challenging the rankings are, because you can never please everyone.

Why so nice? Are you planning to run for office?

 

[Dogwelder]

I don’t know if it was discussed elsewhere already, but did you guys catch on FRL that somebody said the recruiting-class rankings [for high-school class of 2026 and 2027] should consider not only the quality of the recruits but also their [anticipated] effect on the team in question? In other words, the same set of recruits might be number one in the country if they commit to a bad team, but number two or three or four if they commit to Penn State, since they would [likely] not help Penn State as much, since Penn State is already so good. Pyles was the voice of reason, and he said that only the quality of recruits should be considered, not how many starts they [presumably] can or cannot get on the team they are joining.

[edit: good distinction about the initial ranking vs later re-ranking, Jefe. I’ve edited the above to emphasize the initial ranking.]

 

[Anon1683312534]

Why so nice? Are you planning to run for office?

Ranks are nothing more than the ranker 's opinion.

 

[El_Jefe]

I don’t know if it was discussed elsewhere already, but did you guys catch on FRL that somebody said the recruiting-class rankings should consider not only the quality of the recruits but also their effect on the team in question? In other words, the same set of recruits might be number one in the country if they commit to a bad team, but number two or three or four if they commit to Penn State, since they would not help Penn State as much, since Penn State is already so good. Pyles was the voice of reason, and he said that only the quality of recruits should be considered, not how many starts they can or cannot get on the team they are joining.

I agree with Pyles -- at the time of the recruiting.

Afterward, disagree with him.

Earl Smith used to do a Recruiting Re-rank at his old D1CW site. After an entire HS class graduated college, he'd go back and re-rank the recruits by NCAA Points scored. It's a much better way of determining a recruitung class than, say, tweeting about hanging a banner in Covelli.

Anyway, Antrell Taylor is likely gonna end up with a better college career than Joe Sealey. He has too big of a head start. So lineup fit is an unavoidable part of a recruiting class' effectiveness.

 

[J-007]

I don’t know if it was discussed elsewhere already, but did you guys catch on FRL that somebody said the recruiting-class rankings [for high-school class of 2026 and 2027] should consider not only the quality of the recruits but also their [anticipated] effect on the team in question? In other words, the same set of recruits might be number one in the country if they commit to a bad team, but number two or three or four if they commit to Penn State, since they would [likely] not help Penn State as much, since Penn State is already so good. Pyles was the voice of reason, and he said that only the quality of recruits should be considered, not how many starts they [presumably] can or cannot get on the team they are joining.

[edit: good distinction about the initial ranking vs later re-ranking, Jefe. I’ve edited the above to emphasize the initial ranking.]

I did watch FRL. JD took it hard. You could tell he wasn't ready for backlash. The man has always been a hater to Penn State.

 

[Kozak]

I just googled "when did rankings stop being predictions". The answer was they haven't. It went on to give examples about football but at the end of the day rankings are still considered predictions.

Google is old news - I asked ChatGPT if rankings were predictions, and it said, "Usually no. Rankings are not predictions—they are snapshots of past performance."

 

[shotofespresso]

The stupid thing is that even if you just go with the ten guys starting now and assume Barr is out for the year and Desmond is going 141 this team still wins the title in a walk. Ranking while not using your eyes or any common sense is stupid. In what world is Blaze the 8th best 133 and Duke the 11th best at 157?

Guys, If you listen to FRL podcasts, Kozak logically explains how they come up with their rankings and what the general rules for same are… If exceptions occur they discuss and explain the reasoning for handling those as well.

Kozak is one of the most logical on the show and he lays out his reasoning for everything and based on same the rankings he puts out all make sense.

Highly recommend listening if you are confused about any of this..

 

[Twisterky]

I predict that after this weekend, PSU will be back on top.

 

[Dogwelder]

… Kozak is one of the most logical on the show and he lays out his reasoning for everything and based on same the rankings he puts out all make sense. …

If PSU #1 is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

 

[FlyingLion]

I don't mind Duke and Blaze being under ranked; enjoy watching the young guys climb the rankings over the course of a season.

As for the team ranking, who really cares? That will take care of itself anyway, probably sooner rather later.