Hyatt is a 28% 3 point shooter. He doesn't stretch the defense
Last night and the portal
- Thread starter RU72
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It never crossed my mind.. but now I’m kind of tempted.
This is what he does and one of the reasons I'm no fan. As I said an attention seeker.
Isn't that why most people post on internet boards?
Shooting percentages are the biggest phantom stat and some people are going to be shocked here.
I would only truly care about what a player shoots, at RU....career stats are helpful, but since this is a RU discussion, I'm looking at what makes RU a better team and what they do here....I think when fans actually see these numbers, heads may explode with "Oh no, Hawk is right, yet again....."!!!
Let's be realistic.....we evaluate players based in level of competition. We also evaluate players based on actual "eye-test" and role within the team concept. If these concepts are foreign to fans, not sure what to tell you.
Let's look at the 2 top 3 point shooters in terms of attempts on RU....Cam Spencer and Aundre Hyatt....in terms of 3 point shooting percentage, Palmquist, Mulcahy shoot a better percentage than Hyatt, but I don't think that's relevant for one critical FACT.
In order for a shooting percentage to actually matter, you have to be able to shoot the ball quickly, against good defense and I think the standard is around 1 second to "catch and shoot"......
Cam Spencer has great "stats", but takes over 2 seconds to gather, get his feet set and has a very slow release. At this level of play, if your opponent is slow, undersized or not good, Spencer's numbers will or show that....and guess what, it does a BIG difference.
Let's look at Spencer and look at the 10 games that I believe all fans would agree were not teams considered either good, or not very good this season.
Central Connecticut State, Rider, Coppin State, Bucknell, Hofstra, UMass Lowell, Sacred Heart, Columbia and Minnesota twice, are all opponents that I would consider either not Power 5/6 standard, or not a credible level opponent. No disrespect to Hofstra, but they're good, but not at an Ohio State, Michigan, Nebraska or Wisconsin level, even with all of those teams missing the NCAAs.
In 10 games against those opponents, Spencer shot 58.8% from 3 point range....which is absurd is a good way....he shot 32/55 against those teams from 3.....
Hyatt against those same opponents shot 10/33 from 3, for 30.8%....which is around what he shot from 3 for the season (30.6%).
Here's where stats can ultimately lie or if you don't watch games and understand roles, you can get fooled.
In the other "relevant" games, which includes, Temple, Seton Hall, Wake Forest, Miami and the 22 B1G games, the numbers are MUCH different. Because players (Spencer, Mulcahy as starters)
with higher percentages are just unable to take tougher shots OR cannot shoot quick enough........in other words, Spencer only shoots when he is left wide open and didn't take many shots when guarded closely....and we all watched when he was guarded closely, he was just as likely to potentially shoot an airball or have his shot blocked or altered.
Spencer in the other games that matter shot 44/114 from 3 point range....which is still very good, but it's a full 20 POINTS lower on percentages, all the way down to 38.5% from 3.....the larger question is whether 114 3 point attempts in 25 or so games is enough or too few.....in any way it's not even 5 3 point attempts per game.
Hyatt in those same games shot 35/114....which is at or around the same % he shot in all of the games....30.7% from 3. But he has the same shot attempts in a catch and shoot role AND he has to take quicker/tougher shots that Spencer cannot or will not take. BIG difference folks.
Spencer made NINE more 3s in games that matter, more than Hyatt....NINE more threes made over 25 or so games.....?? Doesn't seem like reality, but it is.
At NW, at Purdue, at Wisconsin were games where Spencer shot 14/21 from 3.....RU would have had ZERO chance at the NCAAs if not for those 3 games being wins.
On the other hand, there were 3 games, Temple, Seton Hall, Miami, where Spencer either didn't shoot well or could not/would not take shots.....he went 1 for 14 from 3........any of those games would have helped to have Spencer knock down something.....any of those games being flipped from loss to wins, means RU is in the NCAAs vs not.
I know these numbers may be shocking for the Scangg, who cant digest reality......
44 for 114 vs 35 for 114 from 3, in the same pool of 25 games.....what exactly are we talking about....??
Hyatt was placed in the Akwasi Yeboah role. Yeboah in his 1 year was a better overall player than Hyatt. And the eye-test and numbers bear that out. But the more you shoot, the more likely you will see your percentages drop.
Yeboah in 2019-20 shot 38/108 from 3.....35.2%
Hyatt in 2022-23 shot 45/147 from 3.....30.6%.....
In Yeboah and Hyatt, they played around the same amount of minutes per game.......Yeboah played with better players who could score and Hyatt was asked to take and make shots on a team that was more station to station.
All good points but Hyatt was also on last years team and shot 27% from three while playing more of the spot up shooter role. Kind of hurts your argument.
Good stuff, I appreciate the effort, is the overall point that Spencer is overrated and Hyatt is underrated as 3-point shooters? The thing with shooting is, it all counts, shot selection is part of being a good shooter and built into %'s.
We can never know, if Hyatt didn't force so many 3's that clanged off the side of the backboard for example, would he have shot a higher %, probably but probably not as high as Cam.
If Cam forced up more, would he have shot lower? Certainly, as low as Hyatt? We'll never know.
I wish Cam had forced up a few more and Hyatt a few less.
If you asked opposing coaches who they'd rather have shooting, it would be unanimous that if a defender had to choose, let Hyatt be the one to take the shot.
Last year vs this year......the attempts are what matters. Do you have the ability to take them or not. If Hyatt shot better this year than the year before, why would I believe that number would dropoff??
I don't think fans understand how much focus Gavin Griffiths is going to see from opponents on defense. Removing Hyatt and replacing him with who exactly, on a 1 year rental??
Hyatt has 1 more year, vs someone else who has one more year.....I also have Mag, but that's potentially not an option......and I have Ngongo, who appears to be capable of taking 3s. I would rather see Hyatt/Mag/Ngongo battle it out, than thinking we are getting a 1 year rental that's significantly better.
The goal is to also keep the space open for whatever 2024 kids commit. So a normal multiple year transfer is also fine, as long as fans want to give Mag and Ngongo more obstacles towards playing time (that is a big NO for me).
Key part above - I expect Cam to get MORE open looks with Gavin on the floor, making Cam even more valuable.
AND I expect Cam to get Gavin open looks in situations where this year Cam was passing to ball to Caleb, Hyatt, Paul etc.
If Hyatt stays I'd expect him to shoot fewer contested shots because our offense overall will be much better - I don't think he'd buy into that, I don't think he's that good of a decision-maker, but I don't know him, maybe he would. I don't think Hyatt would shoot much better with the benefit of more open looks. I don't think he'll be back.
Hyatt was already basically replaced by palmquist towards the end of the year. Guy got 6 minutes vs Purdue and 9 minutes vs Michigan. Doesn’t seem like pike would really care if he left.
There was character impugning? That sucks. Like questioning his personal integrity?
In general, people should not be impugning character on such low stakes things.
There is a major flaw in your analysis, the way other teams prepared to play Cam and Audre. Cam was the major focus of every time playing us, had a defender on him virtually all the time, and he generally had to shoot while in motion to get shots off. Hyatt generally sets up in the corners and his defender would regularly drop off him to double in the paint, allowing him to have more easy catch and shoot attempts. Why did teams do this? Because he shoots a heavy line drive ball, and if he gets any part of the rim has almost no chance of going in. In other words, teams don’t see him as a very good shooter and were happy to drop off him and live with the results. No team would ever do that with Cam.
Depending on how our team is constructed next year, Pike better start running an offense where Spencer and Griffiths are screened open. I know it's hard to do this when we are expending so much energy defensively, but something needs to be done to get our 3 point shooters open if they can't do it themselves, like Harper and Geo could.
Geo used to run down the court and pitch it back to Ron who would drill a 3 with that set up. Why haven't we seen anything like that this past year, what was stopping someone from doing this for Cam?
All this nonsense to say Hyatt still shoots significantly worse than Spencer and Yeboah even when you go out of your way to try to bend the stats to make Hyatt look better than he is
We can easily find someone who shoots 28% from 3 in the portal if needed and plays mediocre defense. He is a very very replaceable player
Better chance Mag finds his shot as he's improving than Hyatt becomes a good 3 point shooter in year 6
Ndongo potentially will shoot better than 28%
I guess Hyatt has experience which has some value but he also isn't a high IQ player even with all that experience
Hyatt would be better off leaving. For every 1 good play that he does - he commits 2 bad plays. He doesn’t play defense and is not one of Pikes guys
Yeah, agree with Scangg.
I don't even know what your actual point is here. We don't only play against high level competition. We also play against lower level competition, and Spencer (by your own recitation of stats) shot 58% against the lower level competition. And 38% against higher level competition, for a composite of 43.4% overall. And he probably almost single-handedly won us 5 games.
Hyatt shot 30% period, apparently in all games regardless of opponent. And didn't "win" us any games, though he certainly contributed to many of our wins. I happen to think Hyatt is a valuable guy OFF THE BENCH, but he has not proven to be a consistent enough player to start.
What am I missing? How is shot percentage NOT a good indicator here? This is where you lose credibility by using mental gymnastics to try and prove a point.
He reclassified into 2023 from 2024 very late so I don’t think they bothered giving him a new rating.
and the flaw in your analysis is, you don’t differentiate ‘opponent focus’ when playing together and not. Sure, defense may give more attention to Cam shooting 3s but I can promise you they are not focusing on him when he’s on the bench. Regardless of percentages and all the unanalyzable combinations and variables, I think most would agree Hyatt is the second best shooter.
He is the second best, but unfortunately he is not a very good shooter. The good news is we have a major upgrade coming.
Hopefully many changes offensively but especially fewer Cliff post ups and someone else besides the Cliff/Wolf man setting ball screens. Gavin/Cam setting ball screens for each other or maybe Ndongo?
Get someone setting ball screens who can Pop and hit a 3, or leave early on the screen when they hard hedge and double and it gives the defense a whole lot more they have to defend. The hard hedge/trap on ball screens ate us up this year.
I find myself saying over and over again that coaches coddle players more than ever to keep them from leaving and to attract future players. This is why we see the futile Cliff postups. To keep him engaged and allowing him the NBA audition opportunities. There is absolutely no doubt the same will happen next year. Same reason Caleb wasn't reined in. Players almost completely in charge, and coaches just hope the team wins despite the intentional lack of in-game coaching.
If Pike wasn't a players coach we would not have the incoming recruits that we do, period.
If Pike wasn't a players coach we would not have the incoming recruits that we do, period.
the worst part of of Hyatt is the energy he brings to the court…which is zero.
nonsense, unless by 'energy' you also mean cheerleading. there's a fan-favorite starter who can't cover his own shadow and gets a pass ? they all 'give their all', even Reiber.
I dunno who you are talking about, but the energy that Hyatt and Reiber bring is negative. They bring down the huddle. They might give it their all, but don’t tell me Hyatt brings the same energy as Simpson. And yes, cheerleading is part of it.
so, not enough cheerleaders. i get it. and Pike shouldn't have brought Hyatt here due to his lack of energy. major transfer fail.
can you do the program a favor and appeal to Pike to recruit more energy via cheerleader types ? i hope Griffiths has enough energy for you, actually, are there any very tall actual team cheerleaders that you noticed ?
I love Pike, but the "equal opportunity offense" when you have huge differences in offensive efficiency on the team is suboptimal (putting that as nicely as possible)
Being ‘not good’ is a different question.
your ‘energy’ criticism is ridiculous. Using your ‘At the end of the day’ claim, talent wins. ‘Energy’ is as stupid as the ‘connected’ lingo that wondrously every single coach and every single player mentions nowadays.
your ‘energy’ criticism is ridiculous. Using your ‘At the end of the day’ claim, talent wins. ‘Energy’ is as stupid as the ‘connected’ lingo that wondrously every single coach and every single player mentions nowadays.
But it’s the game these days. That’s what coaching in 2023 actually is. Players egos first, and hopefully your players are better than the opponents’ players and you win anyway. Pike just ‘let’s them play’. He has to, otherwise recruits will favor other programs and coaches who do.
We can all see the actual futility of Cliff’s ‘moves’ if that’s actually the right term. Pike knows it, but he has no choice but to allow it else suffer recruiting negativity.
Don't look now but those pesky Ivies just knocked off #2 seed U of AZ
MO
Stop it; there is no way you graduated prior to 1999, or if you did I would be shocked. Anyone that has been through the “30 year drought”, (and i graduated in 1990, so went threw some bad years), knows that we are in the best position we’ve almost ever been in with Pike. I mean, coaches make mistakes with recruiting, game planning etc; I mean, have you ever coached before? Just Monday morning quarterbacking.
Why does one poster mention ace and everyone runs with it. Geez.
Most would not agree that a 28% career 3 point shooter is our second best shooter bc its factually inaccurate
He is, in fact, not the second best
Hyatt shoots like 15% worse than Oskar. He's also significantly worse than Paul who shot like 38% from 3 this year
He’s the best SHOOTER not the best MAKER
This is nonsense. We do a lot of suboptimal things on offense because every player who sees the court is extremely limited offensively.
Cliff shouldn’t touch the ball unless it’s a clear dunk
Caleb shouldn’t shoot
Paul can’t or won’t shoot unless he’s wide open
Hyatt is not a good shooter
Palmquist can hit the shot, but needs to be basically forgotten about by the defense to actually get one up
What are you left with? Especially before Simpson started? You can’t actually run an offense that is “no one but Cam is allowed to shoot”
Hahaha true. Hyatt has the quickest trigger on the team
The way our offense operated this year I don’t think Hyatt forcing up some threes at 30.8% or whatever was actually a net negative. Not sure it was positive enough to balance out his defense though
Scary stats:
per 40 min
Hyatt: 14.6 FGA
Simpson: 14.4 FGA
oddly identical % = .374
FG% worse than everyone who played but Miller
"equal opportunity offense"
BUT - those are the two guys who can kinda get their own shot off or shoot contested shots