OT: RU GM

[Piratz]

Also a blurb about Pikiell taking courses to deal with contracts.

In the middle of last season, when he could have been in the film room, Rutgers basketball coach Steve Pikiell was knocking on doors to collect name-image-likeness payments for his players – like a dad trying to help his kid sell Girl Scout cookies.

“I probably spend 70 percent of my time on these issues now,” Pikiell said recently. “I used to do 70 percent basketball and 30 percent (fundraising and administrative). It’s probably flipped now.”

 

[Fishjam]

Really a head scratcher that Pikell has been begging for a GM while Sha has fought against the idea.

 

[radecicco]

Any insight on how much they are paying this guy? Does a guy from St Joes have the credibility to handle negotiations at this level? I have no idea and wondering what others think. Could be a window on what we at SHU could expect if we ever decide to hire a GM.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

Really a head scratcher that Pikell has been begging for a GM while Sha has fought against the idea.

The bigger issue now is we would NEVER get anyone close to qualified or effective at this point, regardless of what Sha wants

 

[NIL BAD]

Tons of talent out there looking for an opportunity. We wouldn't see the results this season but it would give them a good feel for the program so they're ready to manage a soon as this year ends.. Most likely in early March.

 

[Bud Boomer]

The bigger issue now is we would NEVER get anyone close to qualified or effective at this point, regardless of what Sha wants

Maybe not, but just having someone who focuses solely on player evaluation/the potential portal during the season (so Shaheen can coach), and can help negotiate and advise Shaheen about market value during the offseason, would be a huge benefit. There has to be someone out there who can do this. Even if they’ll be learning a bit on the job.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

Maybe not, but just having someone who focuses solely on player evaluation/the potential portal during the season (so Shaheen can coach), and can help negotiate and advise Shaheen about market value during the offseason, would be a huge benefit. There has to be someone out there who can do this. Even if they’ll be learning a bit on the job.

There is no one even remotely qualified that we would want who would take the job

 

[Piratz]

 

[hallwins]

We have known it on this board for years.

No one
Not Sha
Not Felt
Not any Board Member,

can read the Rutgers GM article by Jerry and conclude Seton Hall should still be in evaluation mode on a GM.

The conclusion we are left with is the roadblock is either a control (most likely) or resources (doubtful) issue.

Whether GM is a good idea is really not for debate or contemplation at this point and the program and Admin should be pushed on the question.

First movers generally have an advantage, but not always.

LAST MOVERS NEVER HAVE AN ADVANTAGE.

 

[shupat08]

We have known it on this board for years.

No one
Not Sha
Not Felt
Not any Board Member,

can read the Rutgers GM article by Jerry and conclude Seton Hall should still be in evaluation mode on a GM.

The conclusion we are left with is the roadblock is either a control (most likely) or resources (doubtful) issue.

Whether GM is a good idea is really not for debate or contemplation at this point and the program and Admin should be pushed on the question.

First movers generally have an advantage, but not always.

LAST MOVERS NEVER HAVE AN ADVANTAGE.

Admin has been pushed on it. Felt said "it's just the sexy thing right now" and then a year later said "it's just a fad". LOL it's actually a joke watching this program operate.

We are Seton Hall. We are never a first mover. We are always a last mover.

But trust, Sha and Felt know more than everyone else in the NCAA including UConn, CU, Nova, Duke, UNC, etc when it comes to GM.

 

[SPK145]

Does a guy from St Joes have the credibility to handle negotiations at this level? I have no idea and wondering what others think. Could be a window on what we at SHU could expect if we ever decide to hire a GM.

He seems to have the perfect background for the role.

Seton Hall fiddles while............

 

[radecicco]

Appears to be a good hire.

 

[hallwins]

He seems to have the perfect background for the role.

Seton Hall fiddles while............

St Joe's was being applauded with its NIL prep for a few years here. St Joe's was in one of the first money tourneys as I recall. Smart hire.

 

[HallGuy2323]

Admin has been pushed on it. Felt said "it's just the sexy thing right now" and then a year later said "it's just a fad". LOL it's actually a joke watching this program operate.

We are Seton Hall. We are never a first mover. We are always a last mover.

But trust, Sha and Felt know more than everyone else in the NCAA including UConn, CU, Nova, Duke, UNC, etc when it comes to GM.

So because everybody else does it we have to? A senseless cost that provides minimal return? Please tell me what a good GM would do for this program? The same as Mike McBride?

 

[shupat08]

So because everybody else does it we have to? A senseless cost that provides minimal return? Please tell me what a good GM would do for this program? The same as Mike McBride?

You're right! Sha is the exception! He can scout every JUCO, D1, D2, international player in the world while negotiating contracts with prospective players/agents/families, while renegotiating contracts with current players, while running practices, doing individual work with players, scouting opponents, and creating game plans!

There is no possibility that anyone can take any of that off his plate!

I personally like his negotiating tactic of saying: "forget money, what can you do for me?" -- that's a great way to start negotiations! And let's not forget when he scoffs and laughs at players and agents when they make a $$ proposal to him! --- These are both great negotiating strategies! (I'm sure these tactics are used by GMs at other schools!)

It's great when SHU is correct and 75%+ of the rest of the NCAA is doing it the incorrect way! I cannot wait til we jump ahead of all those stupid programs like Kentucky and UConn and Duke that have GMs!

And Mike McBride was not a GM... Now if your point is that SHU will hamstring the GM into a role of pointlessness .... Well that falls on Sha and Felt. ... And if your argument is we don't have enough funds to hire a good GM who can make a difference. Okay. But I don't see you making those arguments.

 

[HallGuy2323]

You're right! Sha is the exception! He can scout every JUCO, D1, D2, international player in the world while negotiating contracts with prospective players/agents/families, while renegotiating contracts with current players, while running practices, doing individual work with players, scouting opponents, and creating game plans!

There is no possibility that anyone can take any of that off his plate!

I personally like his negotiating tactic of saying: "forget money, what can you do for me?" -- that's a great way to start negotiations! And let's not forget when he scoffs and laughs at players and agents when they make a $$ proposal to him! --- These are both great negotiating strategies!

It's great when SHU is correct and 75%+ of the rest of the NCAA is doing it the incorrect way! I cannot wait til we jump ahead of all those stupid programs like Kentucky and UConn and Duke that have GMs!

And Mike McBride was not a GM... Now if your point is that SHU will hamstring the GM into a role of pointlessness .... Well that falls on Sha and Felt. ... And if your argument is we don't have enough funds to hire a good GM who can make a difference. Okay. But I don't see you making those arguments.

Those programs you mentioned are in battles for major players.. We more or less get the left overs with maybe 1 exception per year. You don’t need somebody else to manage 3rd tier level players

 

[STLPirate12]

I do agree that their needs to be a role responsible for negotiating and managing relationships with agents as that stuff shouldn't fall to the coach as he has other priorities that need his attention and I'd argue that letting it fall to the coach is challenging for his relationship with his players. The title, however does not need to be GM. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a little bit of the hold-up as the pro sports model involves the GM running the program the coach reporting to to the GM. Clearly (or at least I assume) that isn't the case in college. Is there a future where that turns and the college hierarchy starts to mirror the pro one? It's possible so I certainly understand why a coach wouldn't be comfortable with a hire that could call into question who's running the program.

I guess my point is, I don't care if they hire a "GM" title or not, but I do think it would be smart to bring in someone to handle NIL/ rev share negotiations for Sha. Perhaps a scout too, but at the end of the day let him retain final day on roster decisions.

 

[sobo1]

I think we need to take the public messaging from Felt/Sha about the GM role with a grain of salt. There were rumors over the summer that we might hire the LaSalle GM. There is likely a missing link (not talking about their IQ) that explains this. I refuse to believe there is anyone naive enough to genuinely believe that a front office isn't required in the era of pay for play with 90%+ roster turnover year-over-year.

 

[HallGuy2323]

I do agree that their needs to be a role responsible for negotiating and managing relationships with agents as that stuff shouldn't fall to the coach as he has other priorities that need his attention and I'd argue that letting it fall to the coach is challenging for his relationship with his players. The title, however does not need to be GM. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a little bit of the hold-up as the pro sports model involves the GM running the program the coach reporting to to the GM. Clearly (or at least I assume) that isn't the case in college. Is there a future where that turns and the college hierarchy starts to mirror the pro one? It's possible so I certainly understand why a coach wouldn't be comfortable with a hire that could call into question who's running the program.

I guess my point is, I don't care if they hire a "GM" title or not, but I do think it would be smart to bring in someone to handle NIL/ rev share negotiations for Sha. Perhaps a scout too, but at the end of the day let him retain final day on roster decisions.

There’s 8 people listed below Shaheen on the coaching/development staff already. How many more do we need? Give me a break. What does assistant 3-5 do all year that they can’t handle narrowing down on a few players in the portal

 

[SPK145]

There were rumors over the summer that we might hire the LaSalle GM.

Talk about a lightweight for the job......

Heaven help us if that was the thinking.

 

[The Crows Nest]

Those programs you mentioned are in battles for major players.. We more or less get the left overs with maybe 1 exception per year. You don’t need somebody else to manage 3rd tier level players

This is about time management and focus, as much as it is about "getting good players"; In today's game there is simply too much on the plate of the Program as a whole, and for the coach to take it all on...is ludicrous.

Scouting is now a full time job...and year-round; you must be constantly making "target sheets" of players from all areas of college basketball...oh yeah and the high school ranks...and international. You must then prioritize your needs, allocate funds to players you want to retain, and figure out how much you have to spend on your targets...and then be immediately able to pivot as your "plan" will almost never play out exactly how you would like it to.

The head coach cannot...and should not...have all of this responsibility to his own; recipe for disaster.

There needs to be an infrastructure that gathers this information, orders it in a way to allow the coaches to quickly analyze and assess...that provides input to the coach as to what "the market is saying" as to player values, etc etc.

The head coach is still in charge...they make the decisions; they just dont have to, and should not, have to do all of the ground work as well. There are only so many hours in a day...

 

[JoePeppitone2012]

I can't believe this is even up for discussion at a school like SHU

 

[TheHall87]

Those programs you mentioned are in battles for major players.. We more or less get the left overs with maybe 1 exception per year. You don’t need somebody else to manage 3rd tier level players

This is nonsense. I'd argue it's the opposite as there are a lot more third tier players than there are stars out there.

Whether we like it or not, I think most of us can agree this is now a business. Player procurement is no longer simply about scouting high school talent, offering scholarships and determining player fit.

You need to have a handle on what kind of talent is available from numerous sources, make evaluations on their ability and fit within your roster. Then you must evaluate that talent fits your budget and figure out how to allocate resources These are all things you never had to concern yourself with before.

That's a long way of saying it's a pro sports model and no coach or manager at the pro sports level handles all of these roles.

Beyond that it's unclear to say that to Shaheen is capable of wearing all of those hats. Most indications are that he isn't.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

We cannot get anyone

just leave it alone and hope Sha figures it out

 

[HallLine69]

There is no one even remotely qualified that we would want who would take the job

I have no idea if he's even interested or available but I bet Andre Barrett would be good in that role.

 

[HallLine69]

We have known it on this board for years.

No one
Not Sha
Not Felt
Not any Board Member,

can read the Rutgers GM article by Jerry and conclude Seton Hall should still be in evaluation mode on a GM.

The conclusion we are left with is the roadblock is either a control (most likely) or resources (doubtful) issue.

Whether GM is a good idea is really not for debate or contemplation at this point and the program and Admin should be pushed on the question.

First movers generally have an advantage, but not always.

LAST MOVERS NEVER HAVE AN ADVANTAGE.

We have specialized in "Last Moving" for many years.

 

[HallLine69]

You're right! Sha is the exception! He can scout every JUCO, D1, D2, international player in the world while negotiating contracts with prospective players/agents/families, while renegotiating contracts with current players, while running practices, doing individual work with players, scouting opponents, and creating game plans!

There is no possibility that anyone can take any of that off his plate!

I personally like his negotiating tactic of saying: "forget money, what can you do for me?" -- that's a great way to start negotiations! And let's not forget when he scoffs and laughs at players and agents when they make a $$ proposal to him! --- These are both great negotiating strategies! (I'm sure these tactics are used by GMs at other schools!)

It's great when SHU is correct and 75%+ of the rest of the NCAA is doing it the incorrect way! I cannot wait til we jump ahead of all those stupid programs like Kentucky and UConn and Duke that have GMs!

And Mike McBride was not a GM... Now if your point is that SHU will hamstring the GM into a role of pointlessness .... Well that falls on Sha and Felt. ... And if your argument is we don't have enough funds to hire a good GM who can make a difference. Okay. But I don't see you making those arguments.

shupat absolutely ON FIRE today with truth and other good points!

 

[PhishingPirate088]

I have no idea if he's even interested or available but I bet Andre Barrett would be good in that role.

You might be right but again from what I heard we cannot get anyone to do anything that is even remotely qualified

just have to hope Sha can figure it out and win games and maybe it changes

 

[HallGuy2323]

This is about time management and focus, as much as it is about "getting good players"; In today's game there is simply too much on the plate of the Program as a whole, and for the coach to take it all on...is ludicrous.

Scouting is now a full time job...and year-round; you must be constantly making "target sheets" of players from all areas of college basketball...oh yeah and the high school ranks...and international. You must then prioritize your needs, allocate funds to players you want to retain, and figure out how much you have to spend on your targets...and then be immediately able to pivot as your "plan" will almost never play out exactly how you would like it to.

The head coach cannot...and should not...have all of this responsibility to his own; recipe for disaster.

There needs to be an infrastructure that gathers this information, orders it in a way to allow the coaches to quickly analyze and assess...that provides input to the coach as to what "the market is saying" as to player values, etc etc.

The head coach is still in charge...they make the decisions; they just dont have to, and should not, have to do all of the ground work as well. There are only so many hours in a day...

How is it a year round job if nobody knows who will be in the portal until after the season. Which again brings me back to my earlier point. What are all the assistants doing after our season ends that we need a GM to contact potential players? Are they drawing up plays 8 hours a day for 7 months? GM is a complete waste of money

 

[HallLine69]

How is it a year round job if nobody knows who will be in the portal until after the season. Which again brings me back to my earlier point. What are all the assistants doing after our season ends that we need a GM to contact potential players? Are they drawing up plays 8 hours a day for 7 months? GM is a complete waste of money

The assistants in that role is an idea which makes zero sense to me.

 

[STLPirate12]

There’s 8 people listed below Shaheen on the coaching/development staff already. How many more do we need? Give me a break. What does assistant 3-5 do all year that they can’t handle narrowing down on a few players in the portal

That's why the scout was a "perhaps", I'm certainly not sold on it as I think we should realistically already have the personnel to cover that part. The first part is a different skill set though and I see value in keeping a buffer between the coaching staff and player salaries. I don't think it needs to come with a GM title and salary though.

 

[HallGuy2323]

That's why the scout was a "perhaps", I'm certainly not sold on it as I think we should realistically already have the personnel to cover that part. The first part is a different skill set though and I see value in keeping a buffer between the coaching staff and player salaries. I don't think it needs to come with a GM title and salary though.

So let’s just say we make somebody in charge of player salaries or whatever you want to call it. Let’s say this person doesn’t give a player what he wants and Shaheen really wanted the player. What happens then…. That’s exactly why the “GM” is pointless

 

[Fishjam]

I have no idea if he's even interested or available but I bet Andre Barrett would be good in that role.

Andre Barrett is a scout for the Brooklyn Nets. He was featured prominently in a Nets series on YES leading up to this year's draft where they had 4 1st-round picks. His scouting skills and player development skills would definitely qualify him for many aspects of the job, but I'm not sure if he would be good at the negotiation, budget-management and fund-raising aspects of the job. I think Andre might be better suited to be an Assistant Coach where he can recruit and develop players.

 

[Fishjam]

How is it a year round job if nobody knows who will be in the portal until after the season. Which again brings me back to my earlier point. What are all the assistants doing after our season ends that we need a GM to contact potential players? Are they drawing up plays 8 hours a day for 7 months? GM is a complete waste of money

Every player is available and negotiations are going on all year long. Every player has an Agent who is looking out for his client's interests all year long. If you wait until the season ends before you start thinking about the Portal, you end up with rosters like we have the last 2 years.

There needs to be someone with no on-court responsibilities who is always looking towards the future so the coach and his assistants can concentrate on the season.

 

[lloyde dobler]

How is it a year round job if nobody knows who will be in the portal until after the season. Which again brings me back to my earlier point. What are all the assistants doing after our season ends that we need a GM to contact potential players? Are they drawing up plays 8 hours a day for 7 months? GM is a complete waste of money

You think no one talks while the season is in progress?

 

[hbkmyr]

I have no idea if he's even interested or available but I bet Andre Barrett would be good in that role.

Wasn’t this floated out there after the G league Ignite was disbanded, but he opted to stay in the NBA?

 

[HallGuy2323]

You think no one talks while the season is in progress?

You have to pay a guy $300k to make a few illegal phone calls?

 

[STLPirate12]

So let’s just say we make somebody in charge of player salaries or whatever you want to call it. Let’s say this person doesn’t give a player what he wants and Shaheen really wanted the player. What happens then…. That’s exactly why the “GM” is pointless

I'd expect it would be Sha's call on the max he's ultimately willing to spend on a given player. This guy's role would be handling communication with agents and handlers, understanding the landscape of what different players are asking for, being offered by other programs, and what they can realistically be had for at SHU. He gathers the intel, makes his recommendations to Sha and then submits the offers Sha gives the green light to and handles contact formalities.

Basically, Sha retains full decision making and this role handles the grunt work and details that the coach shouldn't have to be bothered with.

 

[HallGuy2323]

I'd expect it would be Sha's call on the max he's ultimately willing to spend on a given player. This guy's role would be handling communication with agents and handlers, understanding the landscape of what different players are asking for, being offered by other programs, and what they can realistically be had for at SHU. He gathers the intel, makes his recommendations to Sha and then submits the offers Sha gives the green light to and handles contact formalities.

Basically, Sha retains full decision making and this role handles the grunt work and details that the coach shouldn't have to be bothered with.

Not worth it. So you hire a GM, guess what happens next. The team stinks then you have to fire the GM AND the coach because you know that’s how it works 95% of the time. Think we have money to put out for two buyouts every 5-6 years?

 

[STLPirate12]

Not worth it. So you hire a GM, guess what happens next. The team stinks then you have to fire the GM AND the coach because you know that’s how it works 95% of the time. Think we have money to put out for two buyouts every 5-6 years?

I've been pretty clear that I don't want a GM. I'm thinking a lower level role, someone who absolutely doesn't have a massive buyout. Doesn't even need to be a contract employee, could be at will.