OT: Stock and Investment Thread

Frida's Boss

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Thanks for the compliment. I'd like to take a stab at your question as a novice of the business world.
For any business it starts at the top. I'm sure you know all about Elon Musk. Lots of adjectives to choose from. Self made, workaholic, inspirational, humble, a genius of engineering and physics, and I truly believe he cares about people and the future of our planet and species. Below I'll link a recent interview with Sandy Munro, an expert in the auto world. Listen to the level of detail Elon knows about his products. That matters. He's on the front lines with his workers whether it's sleeping on the factory floor or a conference room couch. If you're an average Joe on working on the line, that matters.

Product. It's got to be something people LOVE. I could go into all the reasons why, but I think you already know Tesla owners are fanatics. 1 minute behind the wheel, and I was hooked. I will never buy another ICE vehicle and will probably be a Tesla customer for the rest of my life. I'm not alone. Brand loyalty matters.

Times change and businesses have to be able to adapt. Tesla is heavily vertically integrated. They build the machines that build the machines. Batteries, unique alloys, power trains, motors, heat pumps, software, AI, and even seats and airbags. Very little of a Tesla comes from an outsourced supplier. Because of this they can change and adapt faster, easier, and with greater efficiency than any other automaker. How are other OEMs going to catch Tesla when they're dealing with dozens of different suppliers? They're the leader in the EV market, and that lead is growing for this reason.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. I'll also throw in the express version of the Battery Day presentation.







TSLA is without question an incredibly innovative company with substantial leads in nearly all the key areas in the EV market (though I do think a few Chinese companies, notably BYD, are quite close in battery technology and production). And I am likely to be a Tesla owner quite soon (the car, not the stock). Why not the stock? It boils down to the precision with which they need to execute and sell to achieve the milestones required to justify today’s price. Will they sell 8 mm cars per annum by 2030, and have more than 1/4 of those owners pay $200 per month for services? Maybe,but to justify today’s price, that needs to happen. But you need more, too. You need either energy, or robo taxi, or insurance to hit as well. Now, if ALL of them hit big, and they exceed those car sales and services targets, then it might be worth mor PE than today’s price (assuming, of course, rates stay where they are today and don’t increase even modestly).

That’s my issue with TSLA’s share price. Everything is in the future. now, they have many advantages that lead one to think that future will materialize to justify the price, but I’m always skeptical of predicting future events, let alone events nearly a decade out. I mean, suppose Elon gets hit by a truck or dies in a SpaceX rocket launch? Of course, unlikely. But not impossible. If that occurred in 2030 after they’d achieved the needed milestones, then it would be a bad but not catastrophic day. If it happened in the next 24 months? Might be less pleasant.

So my point is that,in my view, TSLA is priced today for near perfect execution with little to no margin for error for performance and competitive position over the next decade. And that’s not a bet I’m comfortable making, but I do intend to buy one of their cars,
 
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theRU

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Would you rather profits now with less growth, or more growth now and larger profits in the future?
their time for profits is coming to an end unfortunately. Competition is coming. Scary that the bulls don't see it. It's like you've completely forgot standard consumer behavior... And granted yes when you are the only game in town that might be ok ,but what other company goes 8+ years without a refresh????!!!! Soon as the Porsche and bmw and mbs get out there the s sales are going to implode. And this half assed refresh with half a steering wheel won't save them.
 
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T2Kplus20

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May 1, 2007
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TSLA is without question an incredibly innovative company with substantial leads in nearly all the key areas in the EV market (though I do think a few Chinese companies, notably BYD, are quite close in battery technology and production). And I am likely to be a Tesla owner quite soon (the car, not the stock). Why not the stock? It boils down to the precision with which they need to execute and sell to achieve the milestones required to justify today’s price. Will they sell 8 mm cars per annum by 2030, and have more than 1/4 of those owners pay $200 per month for services? Maybe,but to justify today’s price, that needs to happen. But you need more, too. You need either energy, or robo taxi, or insurance to hit as well. Now, if ALL of them hit big, and they exceed those car sales and services targets, then it might be worth mor PE than today’s price (assuming, of course, rates stay where they are today and don’t increase even modestly).

That’s my issue with TSLA’s share price. Everything is in the future. now, they have many advantages that lead one to think that future will materialize to justify the price, but I’m always skeptical of predicting future events, let alone events nearly a decade out. I mean, suppose Elon gets hit by a truck or dies in a SpaceX rocket launch? Of course, unlikely. But not impossible. If that occurred in 2030 after they’d achieved the needed milestones, then it would be a bad but not catastrophic day. If it happened in the next 24 months? Might be less pleasant.

So my point is that,in my view, TSLA is priced today for near perfect execution with little to no margin for error for performance and competitive position over the next decade. And that’s not a bet I’m comfortable making, but I do intend to buy one of their cars,
It is very reasonable to say TSLA's stock is currently overpriced and it is a transformational company. I wouldn't be surprised if it experiences a correction, but any such downward move would likely be short-lived (since there are likely a ton of investors ready to buy on the dip).
 

theRU

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Dec 17, 2008
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TSLA is without question an incredibly innovative company with substantial leads in nearly all the key areas in the EV market (though I do think a few Chinese companies, notably BYD, are quite close in battery technology and production). And I am likely to be a Tesla owner quite soon (the car, not the stock). Why not the stock? It boils down to the precision with which they need to execute and sell to achieve the milestones required to justify today’s price. Will they sell 8 mm cars per annum by 2030, and have more than 1/4 of those owners pay $200 per month for services? Maybe,but to justify today’s price, that needs to happen. But you need more, too. You need either energy, or robo taxi, or insurance to hit as well. Now, if ALL of them hit big, and they exceed those car sales and services targets, then it might be worth mor PE than today’s price (assuming, of course, rates stay where they are today and don’t increase even modestly).

That’s my issue with TSLA’s share price. Everything is in the future. now, they have many advantages that lead one to think that future will materialize to justify the price, but I’m always skeptical of predicting future events, let alone events nearly a decade out. I mean, suppose Elon gets hit by a truck or dies in a SpaceX rocket launch? Of course, unlikely. But not impossible. If that occurred in 2030 after they’d achieved the needed milestones, then it would be a bad but not catastrophic day. If it happened in the next 24 months? Might be less pleasant.

So my point is that,in my view, TSLA is priced today for near perfect execution with little to no margin for error for performance and competitive position over the next decade. And that’s not a bet I’m comfortable making, but I do intend to buy one of their cars,
Nailed it spot on... I'm not anti tesla.. but this valuation is predicting a Perfect game getting pitched 10 years out.
 
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T2Kplus20

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A more bearish, but still overall positive view of TSLA (let me know if there is a paywall):

This is a long article, so let me cut and paste the final section, very interesting:

How Else to Invest in Burgeoning Electric Vehicle Growth?
Although we think Tesla's stock price has well outpaced our estimates for future growth, there remain a few other investments that we think are fairly valued to slightly undervalued. These investments will also benefit from the transition to electric vehicles.

Sociedad Quimica y Minera (SQM), which is fairly valued with a Morningstar Rating of 3 stars, is a Chilean commodities producer with significant operations in lithium. Lithium is a required material for energy storage in transportation batteries, and as electric vehicles increase as a percentage of new vehicle sales, we expect that lithium demand will grow six times over the next decade. To meet this demand, higher-cost resources will need to enter production, pushing lithium prices higher and benefiting low-cost producers. We have awarded SQM a narrow moat based on its cost advantage in the production of lithium, iodine, and specialty fertilizers.

We assign BorgWarner (BWA), a supplier to electric automotive manufacturers, a narrow economic moat and a 4-star rating. Suppliers like BorgWarner are well positioned to benefit from the adoptions of EVs, as they will see a strong increase in the demand for the electronics that control propulsion systems, battery power optimization, electric drive motors, and torque transfer. In our opinion, BorgWarner is well positioned for growth in hybrids and battery electric vehicles, and the recent acquisition of Delphi Technologies adds electric and electronic controls to its electric motors and driveline technologies.

Edison International (EIX) is a 4-star utilities company that will need to build out the infrastructure to support the growth in demand for electricity and supply the electricity and electric distribution to "fuel" electric vehicles. Although not usually thought of as a growth investment, Edison International supplies electricity to California, that largest car market in the U.S. In September 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order instructing the California Air Resources Board to develop a policy toward eliminating the sale of new internal combustion passenger cars and trucks by 2035. In order to reach that goal, sales of new electric vehicles would have to increase by an annual rate of 18%. In order to accommodate the new electricity load, California will need to upgrade its distribution grid and build out a significant amount of new infrastructure. We rate Edison International with a narrow moat based on its service territory in Southern California, which benefits from a monopoly position and efficient scale.
 

RUAldo

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A more bearish, but still overall positive view of TSLA (let me know if there is a paywall):

Thanks - this pretty much sums up the Tesla madness:

“At its current market cap, Tesla's equity is 8 times more valuable than the world's largest auto manufacturer, Volkswagen (VOW3), and approximately 7 times the combined equity valuation of both General Motors (GM) and Ford (F). Over the course of 2020, Tesla's equity market cap increased by almost $600 billion, which is greater than the total equity market cap of Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.B).”
 
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RU05

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their time for profits is coming to an end unfortunately. Competition is coming. Scary that the bulls don't see it. It's like you've completely forgot standard consumer behavior... And granted yes when you are the only game in town that might be ok ,but what other company goes 8+ years without a refresh????!!!! Soon as the Porsche and bmw and mbs get out there the s sales are going to implode. And this half assed refresh with half a steering wheel won't save them.
I'm not a bull.

But if we know competition is coming heavy, isn't it important that TSLA expands it's footprint as much as possible now, as opposed to turning a modest profit asap?
 
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Frida's Boss

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It is very reasonable to say TSLA's stock is currently overpriced and it is a transformational company. I wouldn't be surprised if it experiences a correction, but any such downward move would likely be short-lived (since there are likely a ton of investors ready to buy on the dip).

That all depends on what causes the downward move.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
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That all depends on what causes the downward move.
As long as Elon stays alive, TSLA should be good for a while. More seriously, they have such a big lead in the US (car, tech, and brand) that I doubt they will be challenged any time soon. I am not confident that GM or Ford or any of the other big automakers can quickly and successfully pivot to EVs. Not buying it.
 

rurahrah000

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As long as Elon stays alive, TSLA should be good for a while. More seriously, they have such a big lead in the US (car, tech, and brand) that I doubt they will be challenged any time soon. I am not confident that GM or Ford or any of the other big automakers can quickly and successfully pivot to EVs. Not buying it.

So are you a Tesla bear or Tesla bull?
 

Frida's Boss

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Oct 10, 2005
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As long as Elon stays alive, TSLA should be good for a while. More seriously, they have such a big lead in the US (car, tech, and brand) that I doubt they will be challenged any time soon. I am not confident that GM or Ford or any of the other big automakers can quickly and successfully pivot to EVs. Not buying it.

Maybe right, but that alone is insufficient to say the price is within a reasonable fair value today.
 

RU05

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Jun 25, 2015
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This is a long article, so let me cut and paste the final section, very interesting:

How Else to Invest in Burgeoning Electric Vehicle Growth?
Although we think Tesla's stock price has well outpaced our estimates for future growth, there remain a few other investments that we think are fairly valued to slightly undervalued. These investments will also benefit from the transition to electric vehicles.

Sociedad Quimica y Minera (SQM), which is fairly valued with a Morningstar Rating of 3 stars, is a Chilean commodities producer with significant operations in lithium. Lithium is a required material for energy storage in transportation batteries, and as electric vehicles increase as a percentage of new vehicle sales, we expect that lithium demand will grow six times over the next decade. To meet this demand, higher-cost resources will need to enter production, pushing lithium prices higher and benefiting low-cost producers. We have awarded SQM a narrow moat based on its cost advantage in the production of lithium, iodine, and specialty fertilizers.

We assign BorgWarner (BWA), a supplier to electric automotive manufacturers, a narrow economic moat and a 4-star rating. Suppliers like BorgWarner are well positioned to benefit from the adoptions of EVs, as they will see a strong increase in the demand for the electronics that control propulsion systems, battery power optimization, electric drive motors, and torque transfer. In our opinion, BorgWarner is well positioned for growth in hybrids and battery electric vehicles, and the recent acquisition of Delphi Technologies adds electric and electronic controls to its electric motors and driveline technologies.

Edison International (EIX) is a 4-star utilities company that will need to build out the infrastructure to support the growth in demand for electricity and supply the electricity and electric distribution to "fuel" electric vehicles. Although not usually thought of as a growth investment, Edison International supplies electricity to California, that largest car market in the U.S. In September 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order instructing the California Air Resources Board to develop a policy toward eliminating the sale of new internal combustion passenger cars and trucks by 2035. In order to reach that goal, sales of new electric vehicles would have to increase by an annual rate of 18%. In order to accommodate the new electricity load, California will need to upgrade its distribution grid and build out a significant amount of new infrastructure. We rate Edison International with a narrow moat based on its service territory in Southern California, which benefits from a monopoly position and efficient scale.
I mentioned, and bought BWA just recently.

I've mulled SQM before. It's pulled back a bit just recently, rev's as expected look good going fwd. Earnings look even better.

EIX? Maybe.
 
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RUAldo

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I'm not bull.

But if we know competition is coming heavy, isn't it important that TSLA expands it's footprint as much as possible now, as opposed to turning a modest profit asap?
Expansion is easier said than done. VW will own the EU. The Chinese will not let Tesla dominate China. In the US, Ford and GM are betting their companies on EVs. And within the US you’d be shocked to know that 35% of Tesla’s are sold in CA. I’ve actually seen numbers closer to 50% but not sure how accurate they are. Regardless, a high percentage of Tesla sales come from a handful of wealthy states. Joe Factory Worker in Cleveland will never, ever, buy a Tesla. You can probably count on 1 hand how many Teslas are sold in the state of Alabama.
 

RU05

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It’s a false question. Any business is worth the present value of the future cash flows of the business from now to its end as an enterprise.
Let me rephrase then. Would you rather profits asap, which will lead to lesser overall profits, or growth now which will stunt short term profits, in favor of larger overall profits?
 
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T2Kplus20

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May 1, 2007
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So are you a Tesla bear or Tesla bull?
Good question. I am a Tesla bull as a company and believe in their future transformational success. However, I am slightly bearish on it's stock price as of now since it is overvalued (based on many metrics).

One thing to point out. Younger retail and millennial investors are here and their influence will only grow. What they care about is different than us X'ers and definitely the boomers. I'm not saying that math and finances will change, but what the younger crew values may not be the same things of the past 30-40 years.
 

RU05

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Jun 25, 2015
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Expansion is easier said than done. VW will own the EU. The Chinese will not let Tesla dominate China. In the US, Ford and GM are betting their companies on EVs. And within the US you’d be shocked to know that 35% of Tesla’s are sold in CA. I’ve actually seen numbers closer to 50% but not sure how accurate they are. Regardless, a high percentage of Tesla sales come from a handful of wealthy states. Joe Factory Worker in Cleveland will never, ever, buy a Tesla. You can probably count on 1 hand how many Teslas are sold in the state of Alabama.
TSLA is expanding faster then any established car company. Until VW, GM or whoever proves otherwise it is TSLA that owns the EV market.

Again, I'm not a bull, I agree with your conclusion, just arguing some of your points.
 

rurahrah000

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Aug 21, 2010
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Expansion is easier said than done. VW will own the EU. The Chinese will not let Tesla dominate China. In the US, Ford and GM are betting their companies on EVs. And within the US you’d be shocked to know that 35% of Tesla’s are sold in CA. I’ve actually seen numbers closer to 50% but not sure how accurate they are. Regardless, a high percentage of Tesla sales come from a handful of wealthy states. Joe Factory Worker in Cleveland will never, ever, buy a Tesla. You can probably count on 1 hand how many Teslas are sold in the state of Alabama.

I find it interesting that Tesla bears (I don’t know if you do this as well) use the fact that TSLA is priced for perfection for the next 5 years to argue against its stock price. But they also use arguments such as VW will own EU; GM and Ford will strongly compete with Tesla even though none of these companies have any seriously competing product out there. Tesla in China is the same argument as iPhone in China. I am sure the Chinese EV autos will get subsidies from the government, so I would not refute that argument. However, I do think China will have to become a more open market in the future especially as they transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy.

Good question. I am a Tesla bull as a company and believe in their future transformational success. However, I am slightly bearish on it's stock price as of now since it is overvalued (based on many metrics).

One thing to point out. Younger retail and millennial investors are here and their influence will only grow. What they care about is different than us X'ers and definitely the boomers. I'm not saying that math and finances will change, but what the younger crew values may not be the same things of the past 30-40 years.

I will ask you the same question as @Frida's Boss.. what is a fair price for TSLA?
 
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RU05

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I know Jeff Bezos' answer to this question! :)
I mean how many years now has growth outperformed value?

Buy IBM, their profits, and their dividend if you like, but unless they turn things around, you'll find much better stock price performance else where.
 

rurahrah000

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I mean how many years now has growth outperformed value?

Buy IBM, their profits, and their dividend if you like, but unless they turn things around, you'll find much better stock price performance else where.

The time for value stocks is after the 10 year interest rate is above 2-2.5%
 
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T2Kplus20

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I mean how many years now has growth outperformed value?

Buy IBM, their profits, and their dividend if you like, but unless they turn things around, you'll find much better stock price performance else where.
CW/ARK was very negative about dividend paying companies. That money should be used for innovation and protecting yourself from disruption. They believe half of the S&P 500 companies are at risk of disruption within the next 5 years.

Innovate or die.

It may be just a blip, but my VIG is very sluggish of late. Definitely underperforming, but the tax hit would be high if I dump it. I'm hoping it will start to pop again with society getting back to normal.

EDIT - Found the video, watch that last 5 mins (from the 31:00 mark):

 
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theRU

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I find it interesting that Tesla bears (I don’t know if you do this as well) use the fact that TSLA is priced for perfection for the next 5 years to argue against its stock price. But they also use arguments such as VW will own EU; GM and Ford will strongly compete with Tesla even though none of these companies have any seriously competing product out there. Tesla in China is the same argument as iPhone in China. I am sure the Chinese EV autos will get subsidies from the government, so I would not refute that argument. However, I do think China will have to become a more open market in the future especially as they transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy.



I will ask you the same question as @Frida's Boss.. what is a fair price for TSLA?
$200
 
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T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
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I find it interesting that Tesla bears (I don’t know if you do this as well) use the fact that TSLA is priced for perfection for the next 5 years to argue against its stock price. But they also use arguments such as VW will own EU; GM and Ford will strongly compete with Tesla even though none of these companies have any seriously competing product out there. Tesla in China is the same argument as iPhone in China. I am sure the Chinese EV autos will get subsidies from the government, so I would not refute that argument. However, I do think China will have to become a more open market in the future especially as they transition from a manufacturing economy to a service economy.

I will ask you the same question as @Frida's Boss.. what is a fair price for TSLA?
I believe the $306 FMV from Morningstar is too bearish, but their analysis is a good read:

Business Strategy and Outlook | Updated Dec 08, 2020
Tesla has a chance to be the dominant electric vehicle firm long term and is a leading autonomous vehicle player as well as a vertically integrated sustainable energy company with energy generation and storage products, but we do not see it having mass-market volume this decade. Tesla's product plans for now do not mean an electric vehicle for every consumer who wants one, because the prices are too high. The Model X crossover released in late 2015 starts at about $80,000, the Model S sedan's starting price is $69,420, the Model 3 sedan starts at $37,990, and the Model Y crossover starts at about $50,000. Tesla’s U.S. customers no longer receive the federal tax credit.

Tesla’s gigafactories may become terafactories as Tesla seeks to grow its cell capacity to 3 terawatt-hours by 2030 from 0.1 terawatt-hours in 2019. A new factory in Shanghai, wholly owned by Tesla, opened in late 2019 with capacity as of fall 2020 for 250,000 Model 3 and another 150,000 units for Model Y online in 2021. Gigafactory Berlin (3 and Y) is under construction until 2021 as is a Texas plant for Cybertruck and Y. Tesla's global vehicle capacity as of fall 2020 is about 850,000. Tesla sold about 368,000 vehicles globally in 2019 and by 2030 or earlier CEO Elon Musk targets annual volume of 20 million, about double the size of Toyota and VW Group. We think global mass adoption of pure electric vehicles is still years away, but Tesla is the leader in the space.

Tesla will have growing pains, recessions to fight through before reaching mass-market volume, more competition, and needs to pay off debt. It is important to keep the hype about Tesla in perspective relative to the firm's limited, though now growing, production capacity. Tesla's mission is to make EVs increasingly more affordable, which means more assembly plants must come on line to achieve annual unit delivery volume in the millions. This expansion will cost billions a year in capital spending and research and development and will be necessary even during downturns in the economic cycle.

Economic Moat | Updated Dec 08, 2020
Our narrow moat upgrade in October 2020 for Tesla came from two of our five moat sources, intangible assets and cost advantage. Tesla’s brand cachet is not likely to be impaired any time soon as other automakers move into the battery electric vehicle, or BEV, space because we expect Tesla to keep innovating to stay ahead of startup and established competitors. The Model S now offers over 400 miles of range and the plaid mode performance upgrade available in late 2021 will enable the sedan to do 0-60 mph in under two seconds and have over 520 miles of range. We think Tesla’s autonomous program is also well ahead of many other automakers. We think Musk was very smart to not only design a great-looking car, but also have Tesla right away sell vehicles at a premium price point. This created tremendous media publicity for Tesla beyond its customers, which we think creates a halo effect for Model 3 and Model Y demand when they were introduced, as well as for the Cybertruck, which we think is ugly but that ugliness is ironically part of its appeal. We think that if Tesla had started with a mass-market vehicle, it probably would have failed, as too few people would have known about the car and would have been willing to pay for the brand. We also think Tesla benefits from a first mover advantage in electric vehicles that let it build factories and vehicles from scratch and create processes that legacy automakers will likely find hard to match.

The ability to possibly reduce battery cell costs by 56%, as outlined at the firm’s Sept. 22 Battery Day event, suggests a cost advantage that incumbent automakers could take years to catch or may never catch as they won’t want to build many new factories from scratch like Tesla is doing. Legacy automakers are gradually transitioning to BEV production from internal combustion, but we expect they will be saddled with legacy internal combustion engine, or ICE, costs and people costs for a long time. Our projected Tesla return on invested capital assumptions are well above our weighted average cost of capital even in our bear case scenario. The moat upgrade assumes Tesla continues to grow and we see low risk of material value destruction and more reasons to upgrade the moat in October 2020 than keep waiting for further improvement.

We think Tesla's gross margin, all else constant, would have a negative mix shift over time as the cheaper Model 3, Model Y, and a planned $25,000 vehicle become the vast majority of volume, but battery costs should also decline significantly. These reductions and adjusted gross margin calculations we’ve done comparing Tesla to German automakers--along with Tesla's unique factory-owned stores enabling the firm to get retail pricing rather than wholesale pricing--are in our view a cost advantage over other automakers and lays the ground for the moat widening once Tesla's volume allows more scale of its R&D and overhead expense. A similar scale argument can be made for the energy business. Though long term there’s nothing stopping an ICE firm from being a BEV-only firm and narrowing Tesla’s cost advantage, we see legacy firms as having legacy cost structures around ICE vehicle programs that cannot be eliminated overnight as these programs are needed to keep those firms profitable while also developing BEVs.

The other cost advantage comes from the customer side via total cost of ownership, as the cost of electricity for a year versus the cost of gas is not even close. Model S owners' electric costs are a fraction of what ICE owners pay for gas, per our calculations. Our annual cost calculation done in January 2020, defined as electricity or gas, insurance, and maintenance, shows the Model 3's cost per mile at about 15% less than a BMW 330i.

Fair Value and Profit Drivers | Updated Dec 08, 2020
We are decreasing our fair value estimate to $306 from $319 after factoring in Tesla’s $5 billion December equity offering and adjusting our 2020 diluted share count. This raises our share count to about 1.11 billion from about 1.05 billion. Our 2021 vehicle delivery total is 950,000, and for 2022 we model about 1.6 million. Tesla’s annual capacity is increasing rapidly, and the third quarter earnings release has it at 840,000. With new plants partially opening in Berlin, Texas, and the Model Y Shanghai plant all in 2021, we think 2021 deliveries of around one million units are not unrealistic. We then expect another large capacity increase in 2022 as Model Y crossover capacity in each of the three plants above should be at least 250,000.

We add in the present value of what Tesla’s autonomous vehicle ride hailing (robotaxi) business could be worth in 2030, and value it discounted at about $13.2 billion. This figure assumes Tesla captures 10% robotaxi share across the combined markets of the U.S., EU, and China, and charges $0.25 a mile. Our weighted average cost of capital is 8.9% and our midcycle operating margin is 12%. We expect the company to remain a leader in autonomous technology and range. Tesla is also gaining scale, and its ability to make desirable vehicles while generating free cash flow and net profit is far better than it’s ever been, in our opinion.

We model total deliveries over our 10-year forecast period of about 22.7 million. Tesla is a volatile name and fair value estimate changes may be frequent as its story changes. We add back about $4.6 billion of nonrecourse debt to our valuation. When modeling Tesla in our discounted cash flow model, we keep an open mind regarding the disruptive potential of Tesla on the auto and utilities industry. We model the same dollar spending of capital expenditure in all three scenarios totaling about $77.8 billion over 10 years.

Tesla has upside margin potential if it can reduce its battery cost, significantly exceed our delivery estimates, and have a high-margin storage and autonomous ride-hailing business. We model $1.8 billion of energy revenue in 2020, with that figure growing to about $17.5 billion by 2029. This revenue is about 6% of our fair value estimate.
 

T2Kplus20

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May 1, 2007
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It has more to run
BTC was over $40k for a while yesterday. A little pull back today. Hoping to buy more tomorrow (and more ETH). The plan is to get my crypto portfolio up to a certain amount ASAP. And then wait for a bigger correction where I can double it on the "cheap".
 

Scarletnut

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I think as soon as the stimulus package is aproved/signed/enacted, bitcoin will pop. Once it kicks through 42k, it might be a long while before you get a pullback that you're looking for. Just my opinion.
 
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T2Kplus20

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I think as soon as the stimulus package is aproved/signed/enacted, bitcoin will pop. Once it kicks through 42k, it might be a long while before you get a pullback that you're looking for. Just my opinion.
Yeah, I have been buying higher than expected to get to my first level, so I'm being flexible. Extra money in the hands of younger retail investors means BTC and ETH will go higher (and probably TSLA!).
 

RUAldo

All-Conference
Sep 11, 2008
4,504
3,180
113

Scarletnut

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2001
5,462
4,148
77
Yeah, I have been buying higher than expected to get to my first level, so I'm being flexible. Extra money in the hands of younger retail investors means BTC and ETH will go higher (and probably TSLA!).
Honestly don't think its the young retail investor that moves the needle all that much on bitcoin. Its the bigger money, like institutions, HODLers and you!!
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,860
18,853
113
Honestly don't think its the young retail investor that moves the needle all that much on bitcoin. Its the bigger money, like institutions, HODLers and you!!
Planning to hold on to these assets for long-term, perhaps 9-10 years (when daughter graduates from HS). But once again, I can be flexible. If BTC hits a million and ETH hits 250k, I may have to sell. LOL.

What is your crypto strategy? Long or short? I'm planning:

GBTC = 45%
ETHE = 40%
Lottery ticket stocks = 15% (as of now, I have HIVE, Argo, and Galaxy Digital)
 

Scarletnut

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2001
5,462
4,148
77
Planning to hold on to these assets for long-term, perhaps 9-10 years (when daughter graduates from HS). But once again, I can be flexible. If BTC hits a million and ETH hits 250k, I may have to sell. LOL.

What is your crypto strategy? Long or short? I'm planning:

GBTC = 45%
ETHE = 40%
Lottery ticket stocks = 15% (as of now, I have HIVE, Argo, and Galaxy Digital)
I have a couple plans. First of all, as a 65 yo I'm not looking for 10 year holding pattern. I own some in an IRA and some in a regular brokerage account. May 2021 will be 1 year that I've owned GBTC, important to me for long term cap gains instead of ordinary income. When bitcoin hits 50k, I plan on selling 20% of my IRA holdings. I believe this will happen before May. In May I'll make a decision on my brokerage account. I'm not concerned about leaving monies for my 2 kids since they're both doing well and they will already get a decent inheritance from me. I plan on splurging. I have a car in mind that I want to buy. I've been leasing for years so I look forward to not having a monthly lease payment. Anything I decide to do with my GBTC sales is icing on the cake since it is totally play money.
 
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RU05

All-American
Jun 25, 2015
14,600
9,127
113
Don’t listen to the Tesla bulls that downplay competition. VW proved they are legit:

I think both sides of the debate ignore some pretty clear facts. TSLA is the current dominant player in EV, they are already growing very rapidly, and the the entire EV sector is likely going to grow very rapidly going fwd. I think GM, VW, F, and the rest of the legacy behemoths, as well as the chinese, are going to jump in and take a large chunk of the future market share, but as of now, and for the foreseeable, TSLA has the best technology, including, most importantly, the best batteries, so their cars are going to sell.

I also think it's clear that TSLA's market cap should not be 8x(or whatever # it is) of VW. Or 7x(again, whatever # it was) GM+F combined.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,860
18,853
113
I have a couple plans. First of all, as a 65 yo I'm not looking for 10 year holding pattern. I own some in an IRA and some in a regular brokerage account. May 2021 will be 1 year that I've owned GBTC, important to me for long term cap gains instead of ordinary income. When bitcoin hits 50k, I plan on selling 20% of my IRA holdings. I believe this will happen before May. In May I'll make a decision on my brokerage account. I'm not concerned about leaving monies for my 2 kids since they're both doing well and they will already get a decent inheritance from me. I plan on splurging. I have a car in mind that I want to buy. I've been leasing for years so I look forward to not having a monthly lease payment. Anything I decide to do with my GBTC sales is icing on the cake since it is totally play money.
+1
We have different time horizons but that same goal for the money, splurging and fun. Our retirement investments are in 7 different accounts and are on track (pushing for more, but we are way ahead of expectations). This crypto/fun account is new and with WTF money. Not a crazy amount, likely $20-25k when all said and done.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,860
18,853
113
I think both sides of the debate ignore some pretty clear facts. TSLA is the current dominant player in EV, they are already growing very rapidly, and the the entire EV sector is likely going to grow very rapidly going fwd. I think GM, VW, F, and the rest of the legacy behemoths, as well as the chinese, are going to jump in and take a large chunk of the future market share, but as of now, and for the foreseeable, TSLA has the best technology, including, most importantly, the best batteries, so their cars are going to sell.

I also think it's clear that TSLA's market cap should not be 8x(or whatever # it is) of VW. Or 7x(again, whatever # it was) GM+F combined.
If the market coverts to mostly EVs in the next 5-10 years, there will be plenty of business to go around for a bunch of companies. I'm sure we will have a few Netflix's that are able to pivot and lead the way with the new tech (along with Telsa). However, there will also be a few Kodak's that will swing and miss and diminish.
 

RU05

All-American
Jun 25, 2015
14,600
9,127
113
I'll also say this, yeah TSLA is overpriced right now. But GM F, and VW? Too cheap. These guys will go up. And that is where my money is.

Will TSLA come down? I really don't know, and don't really care. If the TSLA fanatics want to keep that price sky high, that doesn't bother me.
 
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