OT: Stock and Investment Thread

Dec 4, 2010
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TSLA is without question an incredibly innovative company with substantial leads in nearly all the key areas in the EV market (though I do think a few Chinese companies, notably BYD, are quite close in battery technology and production). And I am likely to be a Tesla owner quite soon (the car, not the stock). Why not the stock? It boils down to the precision with which they need to execute and sell to achieve the milestones required to justify today’s price. Will they sell 8 mm cars per annum by 2030, and have more than 1/4 of those owners pay $200 per month for services? Maybe,but to justify today’s price, that needs to happen. But you need more, too. You need either energy, or robo taxi, or insurance to hit as well. Now, if ALL of them hit big, and they exceed those car sales and services targets, then it might be worth mor PE than today’s price (assuming, of course, rates stay where they are today and don’t increase even modestly).

That’s my issue with TSLA’s share price. Everything is in the future. now, they have many advantages that lead one to think that future will materialize to justify the price, but I’m always skeptical of predicting future events, let alone events nearly a decade out. I mean, suppose Elon gets hit by a truck or dies in a SpaceX rocket launch? Of course, unlikely. But not impossible. If that occurred in 2030 after they’d achieved the needed milestones, then it would be a bad but not catastrophic day. If it happened in the next 24 months? Might be less pleasant.

So my point is that,in my view, TSLA is priced today for near perfect execution with little to no margin for error for performance and competitive position over the next decade. And that’s not a bet I’m comfortable making, but I do intend to buy one of their cars,
I agree with just about everything you've said, but much more bullish. Also, I'm looking at 10 million cars by 2030. I'm also highly confident that full autonomy is going to happen either this year or next. Getting regulatory approval? Who knows, but it's inevitable. There are 1,000 Tesla owners driving the FSD beta version since late 2019. No negative headlines, which is a very promising sign. Did you listen to Sandy Munro's reaction to FSD? Tesla is very close. I've seen all kinds of estimates as to how to value Tesla with FSD, but they all have one thing in common...it's going to be huge.

What model are you thinking about? Will you get the FSD upgrade?
 
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theRU

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Dec 17, 2008
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I suggest you check out the specs and features on the Cybertruck before calling it impractical.
Oh should I? Did you know that the cybertruck will classify as a medium and not light duty truck which means it won't be held to the same safety standards and crash testing? Sorry Man but I chat in the off roading and truck forums alot.. very few people will be interested in the cyber truck. They will be buying the new standard looking pick up evs from Ford GM Rivian.

Only the california posers who have money to piss away will be buying it because it's unique and once it wears off - good bye cyber truck sales.
 
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RUAldo

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Oh should I? Did you know that the cybertruck will classify as a medium and not light duty truck which means it won't be held to the same safety standards and crash testing? Sorry Man but I chat in the off roading and truck forums alot.. very few people will be interested in the cyber truck. They will be buying the new standard looking pick up evs from Ford GM Rivian.

Only the california posers who have money to piss away will be buying it because it's unique and once it wears off - good bye cyber truck sales.
The Cybertruck will be the next DeLorean. It became obvious that it’s more of a gimmick than anything else the second Tesla only required a $100 deposit. The design will appeal to virtually no one other than, as noted, “California posers”.
 
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Frida's Boss

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I agree with just about everything you've said, but much more bullish. Also, I'm looking at 10 million cars by 2030. I'm also highly confident that full autonomy is going to happen either this year or next. Getting regulatory approval? Who knows, but it's inevitable. There are 1,000 Tesla owners driving the FSD beta version since late 2019. No negative headlines, which is a very promising sign. Did you listen to Sandy Munro's reaction to FSD? Tesla is very close. I've seen all kinds of estimates as to how to value Tesla with FSD, but they all have one thing in common...it's going to be huge.

What model are you thinking about? Will you get the FSD upgrade?

If they sell 10mm by 2030 and get the MRR from those in services (not just FSD, because I do think there are other services they can charge), then the stock is cheap. So the question comes down to where those cars will be sold. Ballpark, global auto sales by 2030 are expected to be around 115-120mm units with between 17-19mm units in the US. Where do you see Tesla units? I suspect US and Europe mostly, but curious for your view. I do think China needs to be a major market for them to obtain 10mm on that timeline.

I’m debating between the Model 3 and the Y, both with the dual motor AWD. Not likely to purchase the FSD.
 
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RU05

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The Cybertruck will be the next DeLorean. It became obvious that it’s more of a gimmick than anything else the second Tesla only required a $100 deposit. The design will appeal to virtually no one other than, as noted, “California posers”.
The cybertruck will be able to travel through time? I believe it.
 

mdk02

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Aug 18, 2011
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This is a bit bearish, but CW and ARK has a great record over the past 4 years. I'm sure there will be bumps in the road, but the rewards will likely outweigh the risks.

Cathie Wood Has Wall Street's Hottest Hand. Maybe Too Hot.
BY JASON ZWEIG, MARKETWATCH - 6:10 PM ET 2/5/2021

While the world has been mesmerized by the crazy gyrations of a handful of stocks over the past couple of weeks, Cathie Wood has kept on minting money for her investors as few money managers ever have.

Ms. Wood is chief executive and chief investment officer of ARK Investment Management LLC of New York, which is not only today's hottest fund manager but one of the hottest performers of all time.

Such success for other managers, however, has often carried the seeds of its own undoing (https://jasonzweig.com/ mutual-funds-and-mr-creosote/). It's almost inevitable that when funds get too big, too fast, they can't sustain their performance.

That's partly because all that money makes it hard for fund managers to maneuver as nimbly as they did when they were small. Copycats mimic their every move, and it's a lot easier to sell a few shares of a stock on the way up than it is to sell oodles of them on the way down.

ARK runs five exchange-traded funds for which Ms. Wood and her team of 11 analysts and portfolio managers actively invest in companies they believe will change the world through what they call "disruptive innovation (https://ark- invest.com/big-ideas-2021/)."

Since its launch in October 2014, ARK Innovation, the firm's largest fund, has delivered an average return of 39% annually. Had you invested $10,000 at the fund's inception, it would have been worth more than $78,000 this week; the same stake in the S&P 500 would have amounted to less than $22,000.

Money chases performance. ARK managed a total of $11.4 billion at the end of March 2020. By year end, that had swollen to $58.2 billion.

Among the earliest institutional investors to buy both Tesla(TSLA) Inc. stock and bitcoin, Ms. Wood is an eloquent evangelist for assets she believes are on "exponential growth trajectories."

Already, Ark has to contend with mimicry. So far, a smartphone app and at least three websites have sprung up that purport to track Ark's daily trades (). In reddit's sometimes raunchy online WallStreetBets forum, members call Ms. Wood Cathie Bae (https://www.reddit.com/r/ wallstreetbets/comments/kfm3nj/cathie_wood_retaining_control_over_ark_funds/)(short for "babe" or "before anyone else"), and traders talk about buying ARK's favorite stocks and what the firm might invest in next.

This year, stocks are lifting off even before ARK buys them. On Jan. 13 (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/ 1579982/000110465921003837/tm212832d1_485apos.htm), the firm filed a prospectus to launch a new fund, ARK Space Exploration ETF. Although the fund hasn't yet received regulatory clearance, satellite and other space-related stocks shot up 8% to 10% the next day.

Size also can become an impediment. When you have millions of dollars, you can easily invest in a few small companies. Once you have billions, you may have to spread investments across more and bigger companies; otherwise, your trades could wreak havoc on your holdings (https://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2001/01/22/295549/ index.htm). Many fast-growing asset managers have changed their investing style, incurred much higher trading costs or simply suffered a severe decline in performance (https://jasonzweig.com/the-velocity-of-learning-and-the-future-of- active-management/).

ARK is already a big owner of some small stocks. At Israeli biotech company Pluristem Therapeutics(PSTI) Inc., with a total stock-market value of $219 million, ARK holds 15.5% of the shares outstanding (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/ data/1158780/000110465921002913/tm212782d2_sc13g.htm). That's three times as much as all other institutional owners combined. At a French biotech, Cellectis(ALCLS.FR) S.A., with a $900 million market value, ARK owns 11.5%--more than the next 11 largest holders combined.

Although those two positions make up barely 0.5% of ARK's total assets, they reflect the firm's style.

According to FactSet, 43.5% of ARK's total equity holdings are in stocks of which the firm owns at least a tenth of all shares outstanding. At Vanguard Group, by contrast, only 9.7% of total equity positions are in such concentrated holdings.

If ARK ever needs to sell any of those holdings, who will buy in enough bulk to keep prices from collapsing?

In an interview, Ms. Wood says that as markets rise, ARK diversifies into larger companies. They form a kind of war chest that ARK can tap into "during downturns, when our less-liquid stocks will be hit disproportionately, giving us better bargains," she says. In other words, ARK counts on being able to sell some big stocks to buy smaller ones when those become even cheaper--as it did successfully during last year's severe bear market.

Also, many of ARK's smaller companies are issuing additional shares, "and it is with our encouragement sometimes," says Ms. Wood. "We want our companies to invest aggressively today," because ARK believes these businesses should be financing their unparalleled opportunities for future growth.

As a result of new stock offerings, those companies' shares are becoming more liquid over time, she says.

What might happen if the same investors who flung billions of dollars into ARK's funds over the past year yank the money back out?

"Not concerned about it," says Ms. Wood. "I mean, Tesla a year ago was 10 times smaller than it is today." "That's telling us, reinforcing our sense, that the market is beginning to understand the exponential growth opportunities out there," which will create ample liquidity over time, she says.

Even so, I worry about ARK's outsize positions in relatively few stocks, where it is often the biggest boat in a small pond.

At my request, Elisabeth Kashner, director of funds research at FactSet, analyzed the liquidity of ARK's holdings. She calculates that if investors sold enough shares of ARK Innovation ETF(ARKK) to cause a $1 billion redemption, that would require 14.5% of the recent trading volume of its underlying holdings, on average, to change hands. For Vanguard Total World Stock ETF(VT), by comparison, a $1 billion block sale would involve an average of only 0.6% of total trading volume in that fund's stocks.

"Any selling of this kind is likely to be on a significantly higher-than-average volume day" in ARK's holdings, says the firm's chief operating officer, Tom Staudt. So ARK's trades would likely be less of the resulting market-wide total than FactSet's numbers imply, he says.

Given ARK Innovation's massive $25 billion in assets, "it is reasonable to worry about the market impact of $1 billion exiting the fund in a single day," says Ms. Kashner. If a redemption of that size occurred, she says, "downward pressure on the fund constituents would be nearly inevitable."

An old Wall Street proverb warns that it can be hard to get out of stocks when markets go bad: "Liquidity is there only when you don't need it."

Another warns, "When you have a few shares of a stock, you own it, but when you have lots of shares, then the stock owns you."

Write to Jason Zweig at [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])

-Jason Zweig; 415-439-6400; [email protected]


I wouldn't say bearish, but rather cautionary. You can't be as nimble managing $55 billion as you are managing $11. billion. And you can't slowly build a position when everybody's watching closely. Finally there's the liquidity issue. But I don't see any criticism of her investments and philosophies.
 

RU05

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Jun 25, 2015
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If they sell 10mm by 2030 and get the MRR from those in services (not just FSD, because I do think there are other services they can charge), then the stock is cheap. So the question comes down to where those cars will be sold. Ballpark, global auto sales by 2030 are expected to be around 115-120mm units with between 17-19mm units in the US. Where do you see Tesla units? I suspect US and Europe mostly, but curious for your view. I do think China needs to be a major market for them to obtain 10mm on that timeline.

I’m debating between the Model 3 and the Y, both with the dual motor AWD. Not likely to purchase the FSD.
Of course China is expected to be a significant portion of future sales.

Tesla's Chinese-made Model 3 is about to play an even bigger role in its global ambitions - CNN

"In a research note Sunday, Wedbush predicted that the company's "shining [Gigafactory] success in China" would help it deliver better-than-expected earnings this week.
Meanwhile, the Chinese auto market is predicted to become even more critical in the coming years. "Ultimately, we see China representing 40%+ of global sales for the company potentially by early 2022," Wedbush analysts wrote."
 
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RULegion

Junior
Aug 14, 2007
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Real estate stocks like Zillow and Redfin are on a run feel like I missed it any targets that can still
run? Suggestions?
 

Frida's Boss

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Oct 10, 2005
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Of course China is expected to be a significant portion of future sales.

Tesla's Chinese-made Model 3 is about to play an even bigger role in its global ambitions - CNN

"In a research note Sunday, Wedbush predicted that the company's "shining [Gigafactory] success in China" would help it deliver better-than-expected earnings this week.
Meanwhile, the Chinese auto market is predicted to become even more critical in the coming years. "Ultimately, we see China representing 40%+ of global sales for the company potentially by early 2022," Wedbush analysts wrote."

The competition in China will be more significant. It already is, in my view. 4 mm units is a lot of cars.
 

RU05

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Jun 25, 2015
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Real estate stocks like Zillow and Redfin are on a run feel like I missed it any targets that can still
run? Suggestions?
RKT maybe? It's mortgage, not real estate, but certainly connected. I was in, but just got out, it just didn't want to get moving. P/E of 11x, but I guess the concern is that 2020 was a banner home sales year and that rev's will drop in coming years? I'm still keeping an eye on it.
 
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RUAldo

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The cybertruck will be able to travel through time? I believe it.
DeLorean sold less than 10,000 cars before they pulled the plug. Elon will want to travel back in time and cancel the Cybertruck announcement.
 
Dec 4, 2010
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Oh should I? Did you know that the cybertruck will classify as a medium and not light duty truck which means it won't be held to the same safety standards and crash testing? Sorry Man but I chat in the off roading and truck forums alot.. very few people will be interested in the cyber truck. They will be buying the new standard looking pick up evs from Ford GM Rivian.

Only the california posers who have money to piss away will be buying it because it's unique and once it wears off - good bye cyber truck sales.
Tesla makes the safest cars on the planet. With the stainless steel exoskeleton and structural battery pack, I seriously doubt Cybertruck will be any different.
As for sales, we'll just have to wait and see. Based on current reservation #'s, I'm optimistic.
 
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Dec 4, 2010
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If they sell 10mm by 2030 and get the MRR from those in services (not just FSD, because I do think there are other services they can charge), then the stock is cheap. So the question comes down to where those cars will be sold. Ballpark, global auto sales by 2030 are expected to be around 115-120mm units with between 17-19mm units in the US. Where do you see Tesla units? I suspect US and Europe mostly, but curious for your view. I do think China needs to be a major market for them to obtain 10mm on that timeline.

I’m debating between the Model 3 and the Y, both with the dual motor AWD. Not likely to purchase the FSD.
The Berlin factory is going to allow Tesla to flex it's muscle. All of their current technology will be on full display with the made in Berlin model Y. Front and rear castings, structural battery pack w/ Tesla's own 4680 cells, new paint shop, and I'm sure more. So yes, I think Europe is going to be big. There's been plenty of rumors as to where Tesla's next factory will be... I've heard eastern US, India, Australia, Indonesia, Japan, S Korea, UK, or a 2nd China factory. I honestly have no idea. Indonesia has vast nickel reserves, and seems very eager to get Tesla in their country for a battery factory. I was shocked to learn the market for semi trucks in China is 4X that of the US.
Let's not forget about the $25K vehicle which was announced on Battery Day. China, Berlin, and the US will each have their version of this vehicle, which I think is pretty cool. This vehicle will be a global player and will be the main vehicle in Tesla's robotaxi network.
As for your vehicle choice, the Y is the best bang for your buck vehicle, and if you're willing to wait, the Austin model Y is going to be amazing.
 
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T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,862
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The Berlin factory is going to allow Tesla to flex it's muscle. All of their current technology will be on full display with the made in Berlin model Y. Front and rear castings, structural battery pack w/ Tesla's own 4680 cells, new paint shop, and I'm sure more. So yes, I think Europe is going to be big. There's been plenty of rumors as to where Tesla's next factory will be... I've heard eastern US, India, Australia, Indonesia, Japan, S Korea, UK, or a 2nd China factory. I honestly have no idea. Indonesia has vast nickel reserves, and seems very eager to get Tesla in their country for a battery factory.
Let's not forget about the $25K vehicle which was announced on Battery Day. China, Berlin, and the US will each have their version of this vehicle, which I think is pretty cool. This vehicle will be a global player and will be the main vehicle in Tesla's robotaxi network.
As for your vehicle choice, the Y is the best bang for your buck vehicle, and if you're willing to wait, the Austin model Y is going to be amazing.
As someone that owns a s-ton of TSLA via funds, I you are right and it grows, grows, grows!
 

robcac26

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Nov 30, 2012
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If you're looking to hold rather than day trade in the cannons sector look at an ETF, MJ.
I had MJ for a few years but swapped it for a new ETF that is only invested in US-based companies--MSOS. I thought MJ's value would increase as cannabis became legalized in the US, but since their holdings are primarily Canadian companies, US legalization means more competition for them. MSOS started in the beginning of September and is already up 97%.
 
Oct 19, 2010
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If they sell 10mm by 2030 and get the MRR from those in services (not just FSD, because I do think there are other services they can charge), then the stock is cheap. So the question comes down to where those cars will be sold. Ballpark, global auto sales by 2030 are expected to be around 115-120mm units with between 17-19mm units in the US. Where do you see Tesla units? I suspect US and Europe mostly, but curious for your view. I do think China needs to be a major market for them to obtain 10mm on that timeline.

I’m debating between the Model 3 and the Y, both with the dual motor AWD. Not likely to purchase the FSD.

I own a Y and have ridden in the 3. I personally like the extra room in the Y + height.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
30,862
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Did TSLA buy Bitcoin before or after he tagged it? Hmmmmm. Seems like some knows margins are coming down and needs a boost to earnings.
Or he is trying to tap into the next big thing and stay way ahead of the competition?
 

RUDead

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I'm not a financial analyst yet have made money on at least a half dozen SPACs. I followed the points I posted and sold before the mergers. All my buys and sells were done within 45 days. Dozens of new SPACs pop up almost weekly so your post is overall correct. A little work however can make it profitable.

There is nothing inherently wrong with SPAC's but nothing magic about them either. They are just a structure. You have to understand what is in it, and who is running it. Same for any fund, or public company.

The blind pools are basically replacing PE funds and giving the investor liquidity. This has advantages and disadvantages, of course. Eventually this SPAC window will close, just like IPO's. In the interim be careful. they are very popular and easy to take to market. Bankers will keep pumping them out while they can. Some are interesting, but many of them are downright comical.
 
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RUAldo

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Did TSLA buy Bitcoin before or after he tagged it? Hmmmmm. Seems like some knows margins are coming down and needs a boost to earnings.
Musk is untouchable. Look at what resulted from the “funding secured” nonsense. Seems pretty clear based on initial reports that TSLA bought before he tagged it, or was buying around the time he was pumping Bitcoin. Watching CNBC this morning is a joke - every TSLA and Bitcoin investor, including Kramer, comes on and says how great it is and that there is nothing wrong with Musk’s conduct. Hmmm, did anyone think those investors would be critical?!
 
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T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
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Musk is untouchable. Look at what resulted from the “funding secured” nonsense. Seems pretty clear based on initial reports that TSLA bought before he tagged it, or was buying around the time he was pumping Bitcoin. Watching CNBC this morning is a joke - every TSLA and Bitcoin investor, including Kramer, comes on and says how great it is and that there is nothing wrong with Musk’s conduct. Hmmm, did anyone think those investors would be critical?!
How is it wrong in any way? TSLA bought a ton of BTC and then it was announced. Can't blame Elon for the masses that listen to his every word.
 
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mdk02

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Aug 18, 2011
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I had MJ for a few years but swapped it for a new ETF that is only invested in US-based companies--MSOS. I thought MJ's value would increase as cannabis became legalized in the US, but since their holdings are primarily Canadian companies, US legalization means more competition for them. MSOS started in the beginning of September and is already up 97%.

MJ is up 50% YTD and 76% over the last 6 months.
 

RUAldo

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How is it wrong in any way? TSLA bought a ton of BTC and then it was announced. Can't blame Elon for the masses that listen to his every word.
I’m not suggesting it was wrong in the legal sense but it certainly screams manipulation on some level. The issue is likely that BTC is not regulated. However, for example, if a company were to buy the stock of another company and then the CEO started tweeting about it knowing it would drive the stock price higher, the SEC would take action. Nevertheless, between the GameStop mania and now wacky headlines like BTC pumping by a major public figure, I get the feeling the market is heading towards a correction.
 

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
18,970
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Musk is untouchable. Look at what resulted from the “funding secured” nonsense. Seems pretty clear based on initial reports that TSLA bought before he tagged it, or was buying around the time he was pumping Bitcoin. Watching CNBC this morning is a joke - every TSLA and Bitcoin investor, including Kramer, comes on and says how great it is and that there is nothing wrong with Musk’s conduct. Hmmm, did anyone think those investors would be critical?!
Reddit can easily make money off this now. Just sell Bitcoin and TSLA before TSLA earnings. They can buy back the Bitcoin cheaper with the gains from the TSLA shorts.
 

robcac26

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MJ is up 50% YTD and 76% over the last 6 months.
MJ has outperformed MSOS over the past month, but MSOS has outperformed MJ over the past 6 months, or 5 months since that's how long MSOS has been around.
 

redking

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Jul 27, 2001
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Love Tesla but Elon is playing with fire. Can he just stop Tweeting please?
 

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
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Love Tesla but Elon is playing with fire. Can he just stop Tweeting please?
He is a salesman. He knows he can manipulate the market and will continue to do so. My guess is that his next card is another 5-1 split after bad earnings.
 

Jtung230

Heisman
Jun 30, 2005
18,970
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Chinese regulators summoned TSLA over quality and safety issues. Looks like China is starting to turn on Musk. Great day to come out with the Bitcoin story to distract.
 
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Scarletnut

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Musk is no different than when David Tepper goes on CNBC and says the market is over/under valued and moves the whole market. Playing devil's advocate, I would think that shareholders of TSLA would like to know that the company has spent 1.5 billion on any item for the sake of transparency.
 
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