Exactly. It works for Penn State.
Our program
- Thread starter WEH8ST8HAWK
- Start date
It's a risky proposition if you jump too soon, because that's gonna put you 3 to 5 years behind. The game has changed in football now and the pattern has been laid out by Kurt Cignetti. Load up on experienced players that are proving themselves.
I think that will work in football, but it doesn't seem to translate to wrestling rather well. You have to get the bodies in developed them. But you're also trying to plant the current dynasty and that will not be easy.
The only thing I could base on is how long Dan Gable dominated and then after he left how long I was stayed at the top. I know Oklahoma State had a run in there in Minnesota won a title but Iowa won the majority of the years were the most overall.
Cassar had "fast twitch" but didn't brag about it.
Beat me to it. Cassar was not only strong, but was quick. That’s a pretty solid recipe for success. He got in so quickly and deep on his blast double that his opponents rarely were able to sprawl. It was more like a tackle where the opponent tended to just fall backwards.
PSU depth now definitely factors. The number of their starters suffering injury vs Iowas isn't even close. PSU's is just better with nutrition/peaking/recovery than Iowa. We definitely have had guys pushed down to make the lineup, as you stated PSU has the depth to let guys wrestle closer to their natural weight.
PSU is shirting their injuries, we have been forced to lace ours up regardless. Again as you said depth plays into this.
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The NLWC might be the biggest recruiting advantage PSU has atm. To have that caliber of training partners is unreal
Yeah… The HWC is a joke. And that is on Tom.
No, no, no, brother, I was talking about me......
Let's not forget that Tom had the benefit of having wrestlers from 2 schools come together to win his first few titles.
You are clueless. Read all 5 pages of this thread. True Iowa fans won't stand for where we are and worse yet, where we are headed.
Psu is dominant because they are in the biggest recruiting hotbed for wrestling in the nation. Get Iowa's youth and high school wrestling back toward the top and iowa fares better imo.
133 Blaze - OH
141 Davis - MI
149 Van Ness - NJ
157 Duke - NY
165 Mesenbrink - WI
184 Welsh - OH
197 Barr - MI
285 Mirasola - WI
PSU only has 2 starters from PA (Lilledahl, who is actually from MO but wrestled at Sem, and Haines). Being located in PA isn’t all that relevant. They are recruiting everywhere.
Again the team we fielded wanted to wrestle at Iowa and ultimately for Tom and many gave up a year of eligibility to do so. It's not like he was given additional scholarships to work with so that's a non issue imo.
Welsh is from Pa but your point still stands
It would be nice. The Demographics of the state of Iowa isn’t what it used to be and it’s not returning.
When you look at PSU’s lineups, most of the guys come from states that border PA or are close. It would be a big win, if we could land the best guys from our bordering states.
PA is still a strategically good wrestling location. 6 of the 10 are from PA or border state, with 2 others not far off (MI). But like someone else said, point largely stands. Right now, they can cherry pick from anywhere they want.
At the same time, Iowa has pulled great recruits from Pennsylvania. Good recruits with national/international aspirations will go wherever they feel they can get the best training. Unfortunately, at the moment a lot of them don’t think that’s at Iowa
Iowa high school wrestlers can only wrestle in Iowa and states that touch Iowa. No Ironman,Powerade,DocB, and the likes.
Yeah, some high school rules are incredibly archaic, with next to no beneficial logic. Michigan is one of the most restricting out there. They are allowed only a limited amount of miles traveled outside the state lines, but then double that down by not allowing them to compete there if another school is there that comes form outside that distance.
Detroit Catholic Central, Davison, Dundee and Lowell have done their very best to work those limitations to the max, but it still sucks they can’t do what most of the top states can…
Curious of your opinion on a few of the PSU Michigan wrestlers..
Davis..did you think he'd be AA caliber coming out of HS? So far in starting lineup 3 yrs at PSU and wasn't in that top 20 PFP ranking out of HS
Facundo..was I believe the highest PFP recruit out of Michigan..now in his 3rd or 4th year..still looks lik a fringe AA rd of 12 guy
Barr..a little lower ranked than Facundo coming out..seems like sure fire champ if not multiple
I guess my question is did you see the success Barr has had this quickly? Why do you think Facundo isn't in the same level as Barr? Did you see Davis as an out of the gate type guy for PSU?
Not trying to start any type of argument..just want your take since these are 3 local guys for you that I'm sure you watched a lot in HS
My favorite Gable statement.
“I don’t want to recruit guys who want to be National Champions, I want guys who want to beat Russians.”
Carl gets those guys now.
I think Davis was viewed as more of a room guy who could start in a pinch and at least qualify and get some points at nationals, but they've tried to RS him all three years but he's been forced into the lineup all three now (the first because of the injury/chronic injury to Robbie Howard and the last two because of injuries to Nagao). He's not a world class wrestler like Lilledahl or Blaze on that team, but he fits the culture. He won MI states all 4 years and his team won all 4 years, so he comes from a culture where everyone is expected to win every match every time, and I think he was mentally well-equipped to handle that sort of pressure better than most when he was thrown into the fire on a team where everyone is expected to win every match every time at PSU, too. His ceiling is likely AA, not champ, but 141 is pretty thin this year outside Mendez, so if something happens to Mendez or he catches a break if they meet at nationals, you never know.
I think most PSU fans expected Barr to take a back seat to Connor Mirasola (their U20 world medalist backup...), but there were some statements coming out of the room during his undefeated RS year that he is the real deal and could be the next 4-timer, so there was some buzz around him before he majored Mirasola at the Black Knight last year to secure the spot. Obviously, Buchanan eventually beat him in the finals, but he does look like a future multiple champ.
That's a great point, IMO PSU had underperformed for decades prior to Cael. Not granted Gable was dominating but I still think they could/should done better.
It's still a little relevant, it's the top wrestling state in the country and having the flagship university at the top attracts attention from everyone. At one point you could have a solid lineup from Pa., now PSU is at a point where they can cherry pick.
I do not think many Hawk fans realize how big Gable was at that time. I'm sure the 60 ish and up crowd do, but I'm betting the 30-40ish don't quite get it. He was huge, I don't recall Sanderson getting as much attention in the MSM. That cold war American grit really went along way back then.
Davis’s dad wrestled when I did so I followed him closely. The kid was a mat rat and scrappy as all get out. I wasn’t sure when he would start or how he would fit in at PSU, but I knew he had the ability and the mentality to AA. A 4 year starter would totally surprise me but his current level is about what I expected from him in the end.
Facundo was a great high school wrestler, but I think he came into DI a bit of a finished product and didn’t quite have the style to jump another level. He is still a very good DI wrestler that could absolutely AA, but if his offense couldn’t leap at PSU, I doubt it could anywhere. Still he is in the size range where some one on one time with DT couldn’t hurt. If I had to guess, he ends up with 1 AA finish, around 7th or 8th.
Barr was absolutely going to be a stud. His tenacity was the closest thing Davison had to Metcalf since Metcalf. Now, I never even thought 197 would be a possibility, so that fully shocked me, but I definitely thought he had a chance to be a 4 time contender. Kid always seemed to have the hate to lose mentality even more than the love to win. To me, that drive has always made the best wrestlers, with very few exceptions…
This has been answered, but the REAL thing about it is, the GR8 Krailure FAILS more then anyone BUT has the ability to do this because he is out recruiting everyone maybe 10-1 now!!!
NO he does not!!! He gets 10 TOP kids to everyone else's 1!!!! They then "play games" with PEDs, eligibility, etc.... This can VERY easily be checked so do NOT give me ANY BS!!!! He has had ONE Olympic champion and he left!!!! For ALL the guys he has had in the last 15 years, that SUCKS even for him!!!!
If that’s your description of his program, how would you describe our?
Thanks for the question, and it is a good one!!!
I would describe OURS as STUPID!!! if using 1 word. IF digging deeper??? I might add behind the times, NOT adapting, over thinking....... Now IF what is being said is correct????? and OUR compliance department and/or other factors are standing in TnTs way????? Then my ONE word would be FINISHED!!!! could sub DONE, HISTORY etc.......
NOT---- NO, NEVER can understand, what you-all do NOT understand!?!?!??! There is no person, there is no coach, there is no amount of CASH that can fix it unless one can USE the resources as OTHERS already are PERIOD!!!
EXAMPLE A) The gr8 Krailure had $660K in "camp expenses" W A Y back in the beginning of all this!!!! I guess that number would be/is a cool MIL today!!! Now I thought the idea of having camps was to MAKE $$$$$$!?!?!?? This is BEFORE NIL mind you so he was paying "consolers" B1G money and no one said TWOOOO much.
We IOWA the F-in HAWKS LOSE the #1 kid in the country because he wants to TRAIN at IOWA!!!!! SOOOOO someone, needs to step in and tell someone to F**K OFF and keep their stupid *** outa OUR business otherwise they gettin WACKED!!!!
KEEP the questions coming!!!
He may get more top ten kids than other schools. That, I'd like to point out, is a large portion of being a college coach: talent acquisition. No one sat around and said Nick Saban was a worse coach than X coach because he got the better players. The best want to play for the best....
Also, stating "he gets more high level kids" is really simplistic. In reality what has happened is Cael and company are tremendous at talent and potential evaluation and planning. They are extraordinary at picking and choosing the right classes to go all in on. 2022 they didn't have a huge need and the class was weak. They got Haines. They didn't go crazy and push for chittum.. Or they flat out get the better top end guys while others get the others. Think 2023 when Iowa took Keuter and Arnold. Both were ranked ahead of Josh Barr and Tyler Kasak. Who would Iowa prefer now? Barr and Kasak....Simply put, when Iowa goes all in and gets big classes that rank high: Those classes don't live up to that billing, lately, and Penn states do. Iowa has had two of the past four recruiting classes rank higher than Penn State. Does it feel that way?
The harsh truth is: Cael gets better recruits.Cael does a better job at evaluating talent and all of the other things that matter like work ethic,growth potential,culture fit etc.Cael then coaches better, stays ahead of the trends on the mat and in the practice room.
Top Ten Recruits Past 10 recruiting Cycles
Penn State: 22
Iowa. :10
AA's earned
PSU: 29 (40**)
Iowa: 21. (26**)
** Potential future AAs from wrestlers who have already AA'd from these classes
PSU: 11
Iowa: 5
Individual titles earned
PSU: 12 ( 5 different)
Iowa: 3 ( Lee)
Add to that a host of current guys who will likely win titles at PSU ( Duke, Blaze, Barr, Liledahl, SVN,Haines) IF that's 9,on the conservative side, it's 21 total titles from past 10 recruiting classes..
Add to Iowa...Ferrari for sure. I'm bullish. He is Iowas Starrocci. Then...delucca? I see Ferrari getting 3 or 4. I don't think delucca wins a title. Been wrong a lot before.
Take from all of that what you will. I won't act like Cael doesn't get the better talent. I just think it's always more than one thing and Cael is also really good at identifying the elite guy who can truly take it to another level. The easy and lazy thing is to cry cheating or unfair advantages or, for Iowa, to cry about resources.
We dropped the ball in recruiting during and after the 08/09/2010 seasons which coincided of course with Cael starting to build what he did at psu. Some of us started sounding the alarm bell back then bc it was pretty clear what was happening. Based on what FINALLY started to happen around in the 20 teens when we woke up and started recruiting Penn/Young guns etc... we saw our run from 2019-2021.
History will show the biggest negative of the Brands era was not being more aggressive in recruiting especially as soon as Cael got to psu and
the momentum following the initial successful years.
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My friend, the over/under line is around 2. The “sky is falling” fans don’t expect Iowa to be invincible every year but they do expect Iowa to be competitive every year. And if most are expecting PSU to win approx 8 of 10 matches in CHA Friday and they beat us by over 20 points the last two years that is not competitive; that’s getting beatdown. I love TNT and have all the respect for Telford and Morningstar, but our current combined coaching staff ain’t getting it done. We are not competitive, not even close.
Well said but they won't listen no matter how hard we try and no matter how many facts we produce. We are a shell of our once proud program and it truly makes me sad to think about it.