Seton Hall Declines Postseason

[NCAAsorBust]

You may be correct that they get 1099's but in the real world they are actually W2 employees since the coach (school) has total control over when they work (play) how much they work, hours of work etc... Then there is the medical aspect. The school provides medical care when a player is injured. Provides room and board.

1099 contract workers and W-2 employees are classified per the IRS based on how you work with and compensate them. The IRS lists three dimensions to be aware of when you’re classifying workers:

• Behavioral: Does the company control how the worker does the job? The more you control things, such as a worker’s work schedule and location, which tools they use and the methods they use to complete tasks, the more likely they are to be classified as an employee.
• Financial: Does the company control business aspects of the worker’s job, such as how they’re paid and whether they can seek other work in the market? If the answer is yes, it’s more likely the worker should be considered an employee rather than a contractor.
• Type of relationship: Does the employer provide benefits, such as insurance or paid time off? Is the job expected to last indefinitely? Are the provided services a key aspect of the business? If any of these are true, it’s possible a worker should be classified as an employee.

The IRS explicitly points out that a contract stating the worker is an independent contractor and responsible for their own taxes isn’t sufficient to consider the worker a contractor. Instead, the agency looks at the reality of your working relationship to determine the classification if it’s in question.

We do live in the real world and they’re not employees. In what screwed up universe does the employee say I’m not going to Vegas for the job? You just lost on behavioral. As far as financial my nephew who plays a big ten sport got paid a 1099 from the big ten as a royalty not his school. I’m going with that’s how revenue share works. Is he a big ten employee, not a chance. This is pretty gigantic. It’s not some small business under the radar from the irs. Within 3 months the irs was looking into collectives as non profits. Why wouldn’t they move on this? Also if employees your seton hall basketball tickets would be a minimum of $75 per ticket per game more in order to pay an employee.

 

[BrklynGrad]

This is all true. The question is what does the contract say? Are the players required to play in a post season tournament? Are there financial penalties if a player develops (dare I say) general soreness right before the game? What if certain players have it written into their contracts that post season play is discretionary? Would Seton Hall not sign a player if the player told you up front it's NCAAorbust? The players have a seat at the table now.

Glad you brought this up. What is their contract? Are they standard? Can't imagine one only dealing with regular season. Imagine Aaron Judge saying he wouldn't play in the post season because of his contract. I guess this, too, is hush-hush. Since the beginning of play-for-pay, I have been asking [the board} even to speculate about what our players are paid if I am going to donate. I think that is reasonable, but also very hush-hush.

By the way, there is a move afoot in the CT legislature to require UCONN to publish players' salaries. Argument is that the state university is specifically asking CT tax payers to contribute more to UCONN athletics. I'm all in favor, but imagine UCONN wants no part of it.

 

[SHUSource]

it’s pretty clear you’re clueless when you mention a W2. It’s the dead give away. None of these players are employees. Who is their employer? You’re just spewing garbage of something you have no idea what you’re talking about. They don’t receive a w2. They all get 1099s. It’s clear listening to you talk about “business” is a waste of time.

But for the incorrect tax form, his point is absolutely correct.

 

[lloyde dobler]

Them turning down the Crown is a total lack of respect for the fans that donate big money to the program. It is a lack of respect to the fans that contribute to their NIL. It is a lack of respect to the fans that travel all over to support the team.
And the funny thing is, none of them will be back next year.
We should be getting our money's worth too.

It’s not a lack of respect whatsoever.

 

[knowknow]

it’s pretty clear you’re clueless when you mention a W2. It’s the dead give away. None of these players are employees. Who is their employer? You’re just spewing garbage of something you have no idea what you’re talking about. They don’t receive a w2. They all get 1099s. It’s clear listening to you talk about “business” is a waste of time.

You are 100% correct. They are not employees; they would receive a 1099. Accuracy is important. I have no issue with players making a lot of money and setting their own post season schedule. I am amused that Fox Sports has to sell America on the concept of Rutgers as a viable post season team. I stand by my comment that the players deserve a seat at the table.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

But for the incorrect tax form, his point is absolutely correct.

Yeah until you think about it. SHU would need every revenue share dollar to keep overall athletics afloat as a business. otherwise athletics would have severe cuts or even fold. So if they were employees, they would get paid what the school could afford to pay them. That would a regular median salary, unless of course you think we could fill the Rock by increasing ticket prices. LOL

 

[SHUSource]

Yeah until you think about it. SHU would need every revenue share dollar to keep overall athletics afloat as a business. otherwise athletics would have severe cuts or even fold. So if they were employees, they would get paid what the school could afford to pay them. That would a regular median salary, unless of course you think we could fill the Rock by increasing ticket prices. LOL

Again, his point. Not the finer logistics. The larger point about Fox Sports and its executives about being outsmarted by a bunch of quasi-college students. Jeez...

 

[NCAAsorBust]

Again, his point. Not the finer logistics. The larger point about Fox Sports and its executives about being outsmarted by a bunch of quasi-college students. Jeez...

All tournaments, other than the NCAA tournament, are a joke. Is the CBI still a thing? Luckily for our guys nobody cares about the crown. If that's what your going with, BYU, Arizona, Duke all have potential top picks in the NBA draft. If they ever said we don't have anything in our contract that says we need to play post season, they would blow up the money pool for all players. What's going on here is wrong in principle it's just happening at such a low level nobody cares. When it happens to the big dance, and one day it will, all hell will break loose. All it takes is that one guy to get hurt in the tournament one year and the next year every agent in the world is going to say take it easy big fellow. This board is so Seton Hall centric, the big picture is being lost of the potential harm to the sport and the market value of the players. Again nobody in America outside of here cares about Seton Hall, but if it happened at a place where they have a true basketball culture, it's a disaster.

 

[HallGuy2323]

All tournaments, other than the NCAA tournament, are a joke. Is the CBI still a thing? Luckily for our guys nobody cares about the crown. If that's what your going with, BYU, Arizona, Duke all have potential top picks in the NBA draft. If they ever said we don't have anything in our contract that says we need to play post season, they would blow up the money pool for all players. What's going on here is wrong in principle it's just happening at such a low level nobody cares. When it happens to the big dance, and one day it will, all hell will break loose. All it takes is that one guy to get hurt in the tournament one year and the next year every agent in the world is going to say take it easy big fellow. This board is so Seton Hall centric, the big picture is being lost of the potential harm to the sport and the market value of the players. Again nobody in America outside of here cares about Seton Hall, but if it happened at a place where they have a true basketball culture, it's a disaster.

It actually blows my mind this topic has over 100 posts. It shows you how stuck in the past our fanbase is. Was it better 40 years ago when it all mattered? Yeah probably. But that, like so many other things is never coming back.

There’s a very clear and logical reason for every team to decline every post season other than the NCAA Tournament.

 

[Seton75]

I don’t care if we turned it down or not. But for us to put it down and call it a joke is ridiculous

We are a fringe D1 athletics department, we shouldn’t make fun or call anything a joke. If the schools who wanted to play wanted to go for it good for them

Last might I saw a blurb that I think said the Crown got 20k attendance in total and less that 4k for the final.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

It actually blows my mind this topic has over 100 posts. It shows you how stuck in the past our fanbase is. Was it better 40 years ago when it all mattered? Yeah probably. But that, like so many other things is never coming back.

There’s a very clear and logical reason for every team to decline every post season other than the NCAA Tournament.

Great post.

When these people realize every reason they're giving the okay on for declining the crown works just as well with the NCAA tournament, they're going to say how did this happen. How did Duke with 4 first round picks and a #1 overall seed end up with all of their guys sitting out. Well they have no contract to play in the postseason. Duh

 

[Garyshu1971]

This is all true. The question is what does the contract say? Are the players required to play in a post season tournament? Are there financial penalties if a player develops (dare I say) general soreness right before the game? What if certain players have it written into their contracts that post season play is discretionary? Would Seton Hall not sign a player if the player told you up front it's NCAAorbust? The players have a seat at the table now.

All good points but all those other schools are playing. How is that possible? Living up to their agreements. No excuses from them. Maybe they're just not a smart as Seton Hall. Or maybe their word means something.

It’s not a lack of respect whatsoever.

Well it is a lack of respect for what Fox has done for the conference over the years. Of course when all the games are on Peacock with their crappy coverage everyone here defending SHU will be bitching about how FOX screwed TBEC.

 

[PhishingPirate088]

Last might I saw a blurb that I think said the Crown got 20k attendance in total and less that 4k for the final.

So? What does that mean?

 

[shu67]

We do live in the real world and they’re not employees. In what screwed up universe does the employee say I’m not going to Vegas for the job? You just lost on behavioral. As far as financial my nephew who plays a big ten sport got paid a 1099 from the big ten as a royalty not his school. I’m going with that’s how revenue share works. Is he a big ten employee, not a chance. This is pretty gigantic. It’s not some small business under the radar from the irs. Within 3 months the irs was looking into collectives as non profits. Why wouldn’t they move on this? Also if employees your seton hall basketball tickets would be a minimum of $75 per ticket per game more in order to pay an employee.

You don't know who said they are NOT going and if the coach and school all agreed to NOT go. So it was a mutual decision by the employee and employer as I see it.

 

[Seton75]

All tournaments, other than the NCAA tournament, are a joke. Is the CBI still a thing? Luckily for our guys nobody cares about the crown. If that's what your going with, BYU, Arizona, Duke all have potential top picks in the NBA draft. If they ever said we don't have anything in our contract that says we need to play post season, they would blow up the money pool for all players. What's going on here is wrong in principle it's just happening at such a low level nobody cares. When it happens to the big dance, and one day it will, all hell will break loose. All it takes is that one guy to get hurt in the tournament one year and the next year every agent in the world is going to say take it easy big fellow. This board is so Seton Hall centric, the big picture is being lost of the potential harm to the sport and the market value of the players. Again nobody in America outside of here cares about Seton Hall, but if it happened at a place where they have a true basketball culture, it's a disaster.

...this board is so Seton Hall centric...

 

[SHUSource]

...this board is so Seton Hall centric...

Shocking, isn't it?

 

[NCAAsorBust]

...this board is so Seton Hall centric...

What are you 7? Can't finish the whole sentence?

 

[NCAAsorBust]

Shocking, isn't it?

All of a sudden you lost your interest in the larger point. Jeez

 

[knowknow]

All tournaments, other than the NCAA tournament, are a joke. Is the CBI still a thing? Luckily for our guys nobody cares about the crown. If that's what your going with, BYU, Arizona, Duke all have potential top picks in the NBA draft. If they ever said we don't have anything in our contract that says we need to play post season, they would blow up the money pool for all players. What's going on here is wrong in principle it's just happening at such a low level nobody cares. When it happens to the big dance, and one day it will, all hell will break loose. All it takes is that one guy to get hurt in the tournament one year and the next year every agent in the world is going to say take it easy big fellow. This board is so Seton Hall centric, the big picture is being lost of the potential harm to the sport and the market value of the players. Again nobody in America outside of here cares about Seton Hall, but if it happened at a place where they have a true basketball culture, it's a disaster.

If Cam Boozer skips the NCAA Tournament, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. Guys have been doing it in football for a generation. It would only feel different because we're not used to it in basketball.

If Duke voted not to participate, I'd be shocked but I'm still entering my Bracket.

If the NCAA Tournament is cancelled because 70 teams back out, well those Ivy League suits have royally screwed up a billion dollar revenue stream.

TV and the NCAA can easily fix this problem. Put the correct language in the contract.

 

[SHUSource]

All of a sudden you lost your interest in the larger point. Jeez

No, but you stopped speaking to it and went off on some other tangent. Your reply had almost nothing to do with what I wrote, so ... yeah. I did.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

If Cam Boozer skips the NCAA Tournament, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. Guys have been doing it in football for a generation. It would only feel different because we're not used to it in basketball.

If Duke voted not to participate, I'd be shocked but I'm still entering my Bracket.

If the NCAA Tournament is cancelled because 70 teams back out, well those Ivy League suits have royally screwed up a billion dollar revenue stream.

TV and the NCAA can easily fix this problem. Put the correct language in the contract.

You wouldn’t but the sponsors would. Thats the source of all payments lol. Even with new language in a contract you just lost sponsor trust. When it comes to the sponsors it will be a FAFO moment. They're not throwing tons of money to see Duke not be Duke, Arizona not be Arizona. But it's great some guy in NJ watching on his computer didn't care. The players will love that even when the money slows down.

How many contracts have you read of ncaa athletes?

 

[knowknow]

You wouldn’t but the sponsors would. Thats the source of all payments lol. Even with new language in a contract you just lost sponsor trust. When it comes to the sponsors it will be a FAFO moment. They're not throwing tons of money to see Duke not be Duke, Arizona not be Arizona. But it's great some guy in NJ watching on his computer didn't care. The players will love that even when the money slows down.

How many contracts have you read of ncaa athletes?

I agree. Sponsors should protect their interests as well. This is strictly business and you are taking this very, very personally. No, I have not read an NCAA athlete contract, but I have a sneaky suspicion you plan to enlighten me.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

I agree. Sponsors should protect their interests as well. This is strictly business and you are taking this very, very personally. No, I have not read an NCAA athlete contract, but I have a sneaky suspicion you plan to enlighten me.

I'm just curious how you know what's not in them. I've read my nephews hockey contract. That's the 1 I read. I'm sure hockey is much different than basketball and football, but there was no timetable in there and no distinction between regular season and postseason. So why you feel the player has ability to walk away from playing because he doesn't want to is wild.

 

[knowknow]

I'm just curious how you know what's not in them. I've read my nephews hockey contract. That's the 1 I read. I'm sure hockey is much different than basketball and football, but there was no timetable in there and no distinction between regular season and postseason. So why you feel the player has ability to walk away from playing because he doesn't want to is wild.

You already know the answers. First, as you helpfully pointed out, these are not employees. You can't just order them. You can fire them, but the season is over and they've been paid. You can sue them on the theory that since the wording is vague as to the season ending timetable, they violated their contract and the school/sponsors are entitled to compensation. You might even win. I still think it would be easier to change the wording in the contract.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

You already know the answers. First, as you helpfully pointed out, these are not employees. You can't just order them. You can fire them, but the season is over and they've been paid. You can sue them on the theory that since the wording is vague as to the season ending timetable, they violated their contract and the school/sponsors are entitled to compensation. You might even win. I still think it would be easier to change the wording in the contract.

I would win, it's not a might. Based on your premise, everyone playing this weekend has an expired contract and nobody is asking for more money at the biggest money grab of the year??? What kind, generous souls they are. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[SPK145]

I'm just curious how you know what's not in them. I've read my nephews hockey contract. That's the 1 I read. I'm sure hockey is much different than basketball and football, but there was no timetable in there and no distinction between regular season and postseason. So why you feel the player has ability to walk away from playing because he doesn't want to is wild.

None of these contracts stipulate actually playing in games. These are licensing agreements for the schools to use their NIL if and when they do play.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

None of these contracts stipulate actually playing in games. These are licensing agreements for the schools to use their NIL if they do play.

Is it the schools or the conferences? My nephews 1099 came directly from the big ten, not the school.

 

[knowknow]

Thank God we're done. Cam Boozer is playing because it's in his best interest to do so. The Pirates are not because it was in their best interest not to. Everyone's a winner.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

Thank God we're done. Cam Boozer is playing because it's in his best interest to do so. The Pirates are not because it was in their best interest not to. Everyone's a winner.

Don't tell them they might want a trophy,

 

[TheHall87]

Fox should put there time and effort into developing events like the Crown to be played in November and December.

Many Big East teams are starving for quality opponents and revenue in the OOC. Give me an 8-team Crown tournament in November that pays the teams rather than a Maui MTE which costs Seton Hall hundreds of thousands of dollars to play in.

I understand Fox is looking to capitalize on the March Madness frenzy and sports betting craze when the NCAAT field starts to dwindle down but it's a lot to ask teams to wait 2+ weeks to play for minimal game. A $300k prize sounds great but comes to $20,000 per player if divided among the whole roster.

You're one of the more knowledgeable posters here so I know you understand how this works.

FOX wants content for FS1 that will generate more viewers than darts or bowling or whatever they would normally show during that time period. The lack of brand name schools might make them re-evaluate this stance.

The problem with doing this in November is that time frame is full of MTEs just like this, some of which FOX already owns.

 

[Seton75]

What are you 7? Can't finish the whole sentence?

Sorry, starting a sentence with that clause on a Seton Hall board is amusing. My eye happened to see that clause and I didnt read the rest.

 

[NCAAsorBust]

Sorry, starting a sentence with that clause on a Seton Hall board is amusing. My eye happened to see that clause and I didnt read the rest.

I get it, when I was 7 I had that same attention span.

I thought this was a place where people could take a step back and discuss the big picture of college basketball. Teams, not just Seton Hall, walking out on tournaments, especially now that they're getting paid. I'll eventually join the crowd. Waive the blue pom poms, Sha's the greatest. Overachieve last place. Getting down 15 every game is awesome because it can lead to great comebacks.

 

[Seton75]

7 and a half!